Depreciation

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes that's correct, the NV200 has an AC cooled pack, don't know if it can heat it ?

Nope... just cooling.

from_atozinc

Is the acceleration from standstill = very quick ?

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

Is the acceleration from standstill = very quick ?

EVs have a huge amount of torque so they get off the line very quick. The Leaf and the i3 both have nearly 300Nm of torque. Equivalent to a typical three liter diesel revved to peak output. However unlike the diesel most of that torque is available at 0 rpm. My i3 is the fastest vehicle BMW has ever sold to 50km/h.

At speeds above 100-120km/h the performance tails off a bit due to the single speed gearbox. Generally the decision has been made that the extra performance at high speed is better traded for the simplicity and reduced maintenance of a single speed gearbox.

from_atozinc

cros13 wrote: »

EVs have a huge amount of torque so they get off the line very quick. The Leaf and the i3 both have nearly 300Nm of torque. Equivalent to a typical three liter diesel revved to peak output. However unlike the diesel most of that torque is available at 0 rpm. My i3 is the fastest vehicle BMW has ever sold to 50km/h.

At speeds above 100-120km/h the performance tails off a bit due to the single speed gearbox. Generally the decision has been made that the extra performance at high speed is better traded for the simplicity and reduced maintenance of a single speed gearbox.

Must be a fair push back in your seat so when you put the foot down. This is a very good comparison " Equivalent to a typical three liter diesel revved to peak output. "

I'm sure though if you put the foot down a lot the battery will be gone in no time.

The Leaf being front wheel drive is limited a bit from 0 rpm to reduce wheel spin so it feels a little sluggish until you start moving but once moving it has really good acceleration so I can only imaging the acceleration in the RWD I3 with 70 more HP !

If you are rolling to traffic lights in the leaf for instance and they turn green again and if you plant the foot it takes off pretty hard.

stesaurus

The i3 is fantastic from the lights. Never fails to put a smile on your face

KCross

All
Im considering a Leaf and have read alot of the forum here and other sites and have done some detailed cost analysis vs my ICE.

One thing still bothers me and is holding me back... replacement of batteries thus affecting depreciation in an instant rather than gradually.

Its fine if you buy new and plan to change every 3 years via PCP, the dealer (i.e. Nissan) is taking most of the risk and you have trouble free driving.

However, if you buy 2nd hand or if you want to keep it longer than 3 years and maybe plan to sell it on when its 5-10yrs old .what then? It seems to me that there is a small elephant in the room for this cohort of people as the battery is much more finite than a conventional engine.

I know there are stories of a taxi doing some large mileage but apparently the batteries dont die slowly over time, they die quickly after a "set" time. The replacement cost for these batteries will probably be more than the value of the car at that point thus you have a lemon once it happens.

While an ICE isnt cheap to replace it is relatively speaking a rare occurrence. You could have several 100k of driving and it would still be fine. If your engine did die you could repair it or get a 2nd hand fitted. There are cheap options(<€2k), certainly cheaper than a new battery pack(€6k?).

With an EV the battery is guaranteed to die(its just a matter of when) so this is surely going to have a bearing on the residual value of these cars over the coming years and the general distrust that people will have with a new technology will also play a part.

Basically, I'm concerned that it all sounds good on paper now but its a snake in the grass down the road. Also worryingly at this point is that its too early to actually know.

Im interested in the biased point of view of this forum! What am I missing?

KCross

Remind me again, were you thinking of buying new or 2nd hand , 24 Kwh battery or 30 ?

You're right to be cautious, nobody really knows and the 300-350 Km leaf will be available in late 2017 probably for early 2018 and this could do anything to depreciation , I'm hopefully going to change to the 60 Kwh when it arrives or whatever model EV is around , model S if not too expensive etc.

On the other hand the current Gen leaf battery is proving to be much more durable then the Gen I, but after 10-15 years you simply can't say for sure, I think if buying new and keeping it then I would buy the 30 Kwh because it has the potential to last longer again than the current battery due to improved chemistry and having more Kwh it will be cycles less helping to reduce one part of the ageing process.

The battery won't suddenly loose capacity, it is gradual. Most average mileage drivers probably won't even notice a 10% loss in capacity. And that could take a minimum of 5-10 years no one knows.

The larger the battery the less anyone will notice a 10 % loss, a 20% loss on the 60 Kwh would hardly be noticed either and it will still offer around 270 Kms. And still offer more range than the current Gen with 24 Kwh battery after a 30% loss have around 250 Kms range.

If you are worried then just wait until Gen II or buy MK 1.5 30 Kwh if your budget permits.

I think Gen 1.5 Leafs will make cracking good and hand cars that are ultra cheap to run, the 30 Kwh even more so.

KCross

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Remind me again, were you thinking of buying new or 2nd hand , 24 Kwh battery or 30 ?

Was looking at a deal on a 152 demo model (3.3/24kw), but also looking at 30kwh for 161 but as I said I'm still holding back as I feel the battery replacement issue is too big to ignore. I think I'll leave it a while longer. Get some real life feedback on the 30kwh first and then decide on whether I want to risk 2nd hand or go on a 3yr flip-it cycle.

In reality I don't really need 30kwh based on my commute but I'm thinking of resale value in years to come as it will obviously give you a larger pool of potential buyers.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

Was looking at a deal on a 152 demo model (3.3/24kw), but also looking at 30kwh for 161 but as I said I'm still holding back as I feel the battery replacement issue is too big to ignore. I think I'll leave it a while longer. Get some real life feedback on the 30kwh first and then decide on whether I want to risk 2nd hand or go on a 3yr flip-it cycle.

In reality I don't really need 30kwh based on my commute but I'm thinking of resale value in years to come as it will obviously give you a larger pool of potential buyers.

How long do you intend to keep it ? yearly mileage ?

I really don't think it will be an issue. Especially with the 30 Kwh.

And I expect the 30 kwh to be worth more 2nd hand.

KCross

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How long do you intend to keep it ? yearly mileage ?

I really don't think it will be an issue. Especially with the 30 Kwh.

And I expect the 30 kwh to be worth more 2nd hand.

How long to keep it?... Undecided, the market will make that decision for me.

Yearly mileage... 20k kms.

To protect yourself from depreciation, I suppose you have to keep flipping it which seems to be what most on here are doing... And no one has offered any rebuttal to the battery replacement argument yet so I'll wait for now.

galwaytt

KCross wrote: »

All
Im considering a Leaf and have read alot of the forum here and other sites and have done some detailed cost analysis vs my ICE.

One thing still bothers me and is holding me back... replacement of batteries thus affecting depreciation in an instant rather than gradually.

Its fine if you buy new and plan to change every 3 years via PCP, the dealer (i.e. Nissan) is taking most of the risk and you have trouble free driving.

However, if you buy 2nd hand or if you want to keep it longer than 3 years and maybe plan to sell it on when its 5-10yrs old .what then? It seems to me that there is a small elephant in the room for this cohort of people as the battery is much more finite than a conventional engine.

I know there are stories of a taxi doing some large mileage but apparently the batteries dont die slowly over time, they die quickly after a "set" time. The replacement cost for these batteries will probably be more than the value of the car at that point thus you have a lemon once it happens.

While an ICE isnt cheap to replace it is relatively speaking a rare occurrence. You could have several 100k of driving and it would still be fine. If your engine did die you could repair it or get a 2nd hand fitted. There are cheap options(<€2k), certainly cheaper than a new battery pack(€6k?).

With an EV the battery is guaranteed to die(its just a matter of when) so this is surely going to have a bearing on the residual value of these cars over the coming years and the general distrust that people will have with a new technology will also play a part.

Basically, I'm concerned that it all sounds good on paper now but its a snake in the grass down the road. Also worryingly at this point is that its too early to actually know.

Im interested in the biased point of view of this forum! What am I missing?

KCross

I see where you're coming from, but ICE's are not without their issues either. We're currently looking at daily drivers as ours (2005) is about to be declared unrepairable due to a new fuel injection pump - €3k, fitted. If I'd spent €55k on my car in 2005, that would be shockingly poor value for money over 10 years. Which puts the Leaf and a - possible - battery replacement as actually lower than ICE, not above it. And the car cost half what mine did to buy new in the first place.

Trying to get herself to try a Leaf but can't even get her to look at one.......and she commutes city centre everyday..........[sigh] :rolleyes:

Would love to try one for a week or something, as a 10 minute test drive is kinda useless. I'd even pay to try one.

stesaurus

galwaytt wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, but ICE's are not without their issues either. We're currently looking at daily drivers as ours (2005) is about to be declared unrepairable due to a new fuel injection pump - €3k, fitted. If I'd spent €55k on my car in 2005, that would be shockingly poor value for money over 10 years. Which puts the Leaf and a - possible - battery replacement as actually lower than ICE, not above it. And the car cost half what mine did to buy new in the first place.

Trying to get herself to try a Leaf but can't even get her to look at one.......and she commutes city centre everyday..........[sigh] :rolleyes:

Would love to try one for a week or something, as a 10 minute test drive is kinda useless. I'd even pay to try one.

I got about 4-5 day Test Drive on a Leaf and a weekend with an i3. They will offer it if you come in and are a serious buyer.

Why is she against a Leaf, badge snobbery? Maybe the i3 if you don't need 5 seats, it's so comfortable and large inside she'd love it and then when she puts the foot down hehe sold!

KCross

KCross wrote: »

How long to keep it?... Undecided, the market will make that decision for me.

Yearly mileage... 20k kms.

To protect yourself from depreciation, I suppose you have to keep flipping it which seems to be what most on here are doing... And no one has offered any rebuttal to the battery replacement argument yet so I'll wait for now.

I seriously doubt you'd notice a few % battery degradation over 5 years and 100,000 Kms , especially with the 30 Kwh.

The way you notice battery degradation is by taking the battery to the max range frequently other than this you won't notice a few % loss. The ideal thing is always to top up via AC or DC when you get the chance. Running the battery down to see what range you can do is a pointless exercise once you get familiar with it.

As Galwaytt said below, as ICE ages you can face large bills, at 100,000 you won't be facing anything with the Leaf maintenance wise.

There are some low mileage 4 year old Leafs with all 12 bars, they did suffer degradation a lot more then the current gen will or the 30 Kwh.