Depreciation

from_atozinc

Hi

Just looking in carzone, I see one can pick up a 2012 Nissan Leaf for about 13,500.......seems to be a fair aul bit of depreciation in 3 years.

Any particular reason for this - is the battery out of warranty after 3 years or does it deteriorate or something ?

from_atozinc

from_atozinc wrote: »

Hi

Just looking in carzone, I see one can pick up a 2012 Nissan Leaf for about 13,500.......seems to be a fair aul bit of depreciation in 3 years.

Any particular reason for this - is the battery out of warranty after 3 years or does it deteriorate or something ?

It could also be a U.K import, these usually go cheaper due tot he flood if ex PCP leases. It's becoming a problem for a lot of car makes there.

from_atozinc

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It could also be a U.K import, these usually go cheaper due tot he flood if ex PCP leases. It's becoming a problem for a lot of car makes there.

Ok thanks. But in general, do the batteries in these cars go wonky after 3 years ?

from_atozinc

from_atozinc wrote: »

Ok thanks. But in general, do the batteries in these cars go wonky after 3 years ?

Generally there are very little issues with the leaf, but the 2011-2013 (132) reg batteries didn't fair up as well as the MK 1.5 2013 July + built leafs.

You might lease a Leaf SV with cold pack if you do little mileage for about the same as you'd pay back a bank loan.

Check out the PCP rates. And you get a warranty.

The current 2013 July + batteries are holding up extremely good.

You could loose a capacity bar, or roughly 15% capacity in the Mk 1 after 60-70 K miles compared to 100,000 miles in the current Leaf loosing 0.

A U.K Taxi was recorded having 90% after 104,000 miles but 1,700 or so fast charges. That's still a good 80-100 Kms range in winter or 100-110 Kms Summer at 100-110 Kph.

If however, you do little mileage then the 2011-132 leaf could serve you a long time, the battery doesn't die but it looses it's ability to hold a full charge as when new and this may or may not be a problem for you depending on how far you take the car to the range limit often.

The 132 July + built leafs had a change to the battery chemistry to make them much more durable.

If you get a Mk I leaf try restrict fast charger usage and especially getting the battery above 7 battery temperature bars frequently.

from_atozinc

Thanks for reply.

Are "fast charges" only available at special public locations ? Or can this facility be installed in ones personal home home also ?

from_atozinc

from_atozinc wrote: »

Thanks for reply.

Are "fast charges" only available at special public locations ? Or can this facility be installed in ones personal home home also ?

Yes the 45 Kw fast chargers are only available in Public locations. Way too powerful for home use and mostly not necessary.

Most of the time you will charge up on cheap night time electricity if you get the night meter installed.

If you were to use night rate electricity it would cost about 300 Euro's for 20,000 Kms.

Charging at home can be done in less than 7 hrs

The newer gen leaf with the optional 6.6 Kw charger can charge in about 3.5 Hrs.

the original MK I had the 3.3 Kw charger but it will be fine for the majority of usage. Just set your timer to come on when the cheap rate kicks in or an hour or two after and set the end timer to stop just before the day rate leccy kicks in.

BoatMad

Given Nissan is saying the gmfv after 90k km on a 16 SV is under 10k. 13k is good going. Nissan don't have much faith in their own car it seems

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Given Nissan is saying the gmfv after 90k km on a 16 SV is under 10k. 13k is good going. Nissan don't have much faith in their own car it seems

I'd be surprised if they allow more than 25,000 Kms per year, that's the max I could get.

They can write off some excess but I'm not banking on it.

The GFMV is the rock bottom price they expect to sell it on for. It will usually be worth more.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd be surprised if they allow more than 25,000 Kms per year, that's the max I could get.

They can write off some excess but I'm not banking on it.

The GFMV is the rock bottom price they expect to sell it on for. It will usually be worth more.

Ive been offered 90 k

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Ive been offered 90 k

Where ?

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Where ?

Nissan Wexford. GMFV took a pasting , down from 9.5 k at 20,000 km per annum to 7.5K for 30,000 per annum

Which is why I made the residuals comment , Nissan put a GMFV value of seven and a half k on a car retailing at 24 k after 90 k kilometre and three years


That's way way below equivalent diesels. And makes the pcp numbers horribly expensive

from_atozinc

Ye have lost me now with the jargon ; )

My next question was going to be how much would it cost on electricity for an overnight charge. But sounds it only costs a few cents.........but you have to install some special night meter.

BoatMad

GMFV. Is the final value the garage assigns the car after three years for the purposes of deciding the PCP finance rates.

Overnight charging on night rates metering is about 2 euros sometimes less

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

have to install some special night meter.

You don't "have" to install anything.
Why we quote figures on a night rate meter is because most people get one.

A nightrate meter is free, all you have to do is request one from your provider.
The consequence of the night rate meter is electricity during the day will cost you about 1c more per unit but electricity for a nine hour period at night will cost you 8c less. Since you'll be charging an EV overnight it makes sense to get the night rate meter. The car has a timer that you can set so that it starts charging the minute the night rate comes on.

If you haven't negotiated you electricity rates in a while, now is the time to do so. Many people find that their new day unit rate is less than their current unit rate.

Without the nightrate meter your electricity will cost you 5-6 times less than diesel instead of 10-12 times less.

If I have the battery completely empty (which is basically never):

My BMW i3 costs €1.20 to charge 0-100% on night rate. I get 150-180km out of this.
My Nissan Leaf costs €1.40 to charge 0-100% on night rate. I get 140-160km out of this.

A few times a month I charge on day rate because I want to use the car later in the day. The same amount of power costs roughly double on the day rate.
Most of the time on days when I'm doing more than the cars range I rapid charge along the way and would have some of the power from that left in the battery at the end of the day.

from_atozinc

cros13 wrote: »

You don't "have" to install anything.
Why we quote figures on a night rate meter is because most people get one.

A nightrate meter is free, all you have to do is request one from your provider.
The consequence of the night rate meter is electricity during the day will cost you about 1c more per unit but electricity for a nine hour period at night will cost you 8c less. Since you'll be charging an EV overnight it makes sense to get the night rate meter. The car has a timer that you can set so that it starts charging the minute the night rate comes on.

If you haven't negotiated you electricity rates in a while, now is the time to do so. Many people find that their new day unit rate is less than their current unit rate.

Without the nightrate meter your electricity will cost you 5-6 times less than diesel instead of 10-12 times less.

If I have the battery completely empty (which is basically never):

My BMW i3 costs €1.20 to charge 0-100% on night rate. I get 150-180km out of this.
My Nissan Leaf costs €1.40 to charge 0-100% on night rate. I get 140-160km out of this.

A few times a month I charge on day rate because I want to use the car later in the day. The same amount of power costs roughly double on the day rate.
Most of the time on days when I'm doing more than the cars range I rapid charge along the way and would have some of the power from that left in the battery at the end of the day.

Thanks for that.

Regarding the night rate meter, is this something that has to be physically installed in the house or just an update to ones account ?

shanemkelly

Deleted User wrote: »

Where ?

I got 90k km on the PCP from Windsor Belgard back in Feb too...

I'm going to blow that out of the water if my current usage continues though (33k in less than 9 months )

shanemkelly

from_atozinc wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Regarding the night rate meter, is this something that has to be physically installed in the house or just an update to ones account ?

As was mentioned earlier, ring your provider and they'll install a night meter for free. If (for some mad reason) you wish to get rid of the night saver meter after installation, it could cost you around €200...

Some of the newer meters have the "dual tariff" capability already built in so perhaps it's more of an "activation" than an "installation" in those cases.
Regardless, my brand new "dual tariff" meter was installed without anyone being at home, so it's no inconvenience...

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Regarding the night rate meter, is this something that has to be physically installed in the house or just an update to ones account ?

It depends, if you have one of the new smart meters they just update the account.
If you need the meter replaced they are required by law to do so within 7 days.

Either way there is no charge to change to a night rate meter. The night rate meter is an incentive to move more of your power usage to times when the grid has excess capacity and wholesale electricity is cheaper.

As a side benefit, since wind speeds are also higher at night, you get more of your electricity (for the last month more than 50%) from renewables.

from_atozinc

shanemkelly wrote: »

As was mentioned earlier, ring your provider and they'll install a night meter for free. If (for some mad reason) you wish to get rid of the night saver meter after installation, it could cost you around €200...

Some of the newer meters have the "dual tariff" capability already built in so perhaps it's more of an "activation" than an "installation" in those cases.
Regardless, my brand new "dual tariff" meter was installed without anyone being at home, so it's no inconvenience...

Thanks for clarification.

Now in regard to the charging point. Is this installed inside or outside the house ?

If you were to buy a 2nd hand EV, I presume you have to foot the bill to install the charging point - if so, what is the rough cost of this ?

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

Now in regard to the charging point. Is this installed inside or outside the house ?

It's weatherproof.

from_atozinc wrote: »

If you were to buy a 2nd hand EV, I presume you have to foot the bill to install it - if so, what is the rough cost of this ?

Yes, you can buy a Rolec here for about €400: https://www.yesss.co.uk/heating-ventilation-c5/ev-charging-c1694/charge-points-c1695/rolec-ev-home-commercial-charge-wallpod-32a-type-2-evwp2026-p23238

Installation is the same work as installing an outdoor socket on a new circuit. Any electrician can do it.

from_atozinc

cros13 wrote: »

It's weatherproof.



Yes, you can buy a Rolec here for about €400: https://www.yesss.co.uk/heating-ventilation-c5/ev-charging-c1694/charge-points-c1695/rolec-ev-home-commercial-charge-wallpod-32a-type-2-evwp2026-p23238

Installation is the same work as installing an outdoor socket on a new circuit. Any electrician can do it.

Saucy enough.

If you buy a new car, does the dealer cover the cost of this ?

mr.dunkey

from_atozinc wrote: »

Saucy enough.

If you buy a new car, does the dealer cover the cost of this ?

There is a grant for a home charger if the car is a First time registration, some dealers give them out to ex demos as the grant has not been used.
If your buying a 2012 LEAF you can get a cheap 16 amp charger tethered (with cable attached or untethered (you need a public charging cable) around 400 euro if you know where to look.
Which one you get is all depends on you, some people will argue one is better than other. your choice.

from_atozinc

This is probably a really stupid question, but what is the story with servicing and oil , oil filters etc.

It has moving parts so presume needs oil or am I totally wrong ?

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

This is probably a really stupid question, but what is the story with servicing and oil , oil filters etc.

It has moving parts so presume needs oil or am I totally wrong ?

Not really. Apart from the gearbox oil which gets changed every 150,000 km.

There is an optional annual "service", but it's really just a visual inspection and costs €99. Every couple of "services" they change the pollen filter and top up the brake fluid for you.

in the case of my i3 the first "service" isn't due until 2017.

mr.dunkey

from_atozinc wrote: »

This is probably a really stupid question, but what is the story with servicing and oil , oil filters etc.

It has moving parts so presume needs oil or am I totally wrong ?

Nissan normally do service for €99 as a deal. they just change the Pollen Filter, They may change wipers, brake fluid but wil be extra. If out of warranty i wouldn't worry about dealer, but if in warranty still, good to keep the dealer stamps.

Considering the cost of the servicing or inspections i would always have dealer stamps in a car like the Leaf because It will get any firmware updates if available. And it's handy to have a record of mileage.

from_atozinc

What are they like when left out overnight on a very cold frosty night ?

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

What are they like when left out overnight on a very cold frosty night ?

No problem. Remember the Leaf's largest european market is Norway. There are quite a few + rapid chargers well inside the artic circle.

The Current Gen Leaf from July 2013 has a battery heater that comes on at -17 Deg C and switches off at -10 once it's plugged in.

The heater will most likely never activate in Ireland.

They could have made it switch off at something like 10 deg C which would have made a big difference to fast charging and a small difference to range, unfortunately the leaf battery has absolutely 0 cooling so they probably thought it was better not to allow it heat up too much but having it switch off at -10 is a bit extreme if you ask me.

I would hate to use a fast charger with a battery temp of -10 !

cros13

Found out recently that the battery pack in the eNV200 is actually hooked to the air conditioning compressor to cool the battery.
Apparently Nissan decided that the eNV200 would face more frequent rapid charging.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

Found out recently that the battery pack in the eNV200 is actually hooked to the air conditioning compressor to cool the battery.
Apparently Nissan decided that the eNV200 would face more frequent rapid charging.

Yes that's correct, the NV200 has an AC cooled pack, don't know if it can heat it ?

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes that's correct, the NV200 has an AC cooled pack, don't know if it can heat it ?

Nope... just cooling.

from_atozinc

Is the acceleration from standstill = very quick ?

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

Is the acceleration from standstill = very quick ?

EVs have a huge amount of torque so they get off the line very quick. The Leaf and the i3 both have nearly 300Nm of torque. Equivalent to a typical three liter diesel revved to peak output. However unlike the diesel most of that torque is available at 0 rpm. My i3 is the fastest vehicle BMW has ever sold to 50km/h.

At speeds above 100-120km/h the performance tails off a bit due to the single speed gearbox. Generally the decision has been made that the extra performance at high speed is better traded for the simplicity and reduced maintenance of a single speed gearbox.

from_atozinc

cros13 wrote: »

EVs have a huge amount of torque so they get off the line very quick. The Leaf and the i3 both have nearly 300Nm of torque. Equivalent to a typical three liter diesel revved to peak output. However unlike the diesel most of that torque is available at 0 rpm. My i3 is the fastest vehicle BMW has ever sold to 50km/h.

At speeds above 100-120km/h the performance tails off a bit due to the single speed gearbox. Generally the decision has been made that the extra performance at high speed is better traded for the simplicity and reduced maintenance of a single speed gearbox.

Must be a fair push back in your seat so when you put the foot down. This is a very good comparison " Equivalent to a typical three liter diesel revved to peak output. "

I'm sure though if you put the foot down a lot the battery will be gone in no time.

The Leaf being front wheel drive is limited a bit from 0 rpm to reduce wheel spin so it feels a little sluggish until you start moving but once moving it has really good acceleration so I can only imaging the acceleration in the RWD I3 with 70 more HP !

If you are rolling to traffic lights in the leaf for instance and they turn green again and if you plant the foot it takes off pretty hard.

stesaurus

The i3 is fantastic from the lights. Never fails to put a smile on your face

KCross

All
Im considering a Leaf and have read alot of the forum here and other sites and have done some detailed cost analysis vs my ICE.

One thing still bothers me and is holding me back... replacement of batteries thus affecting depreciation in an instant rather than gradually.

Its fine if you buy new and plan to change every 3 years via PCP, the dealer (i.e. Nissan) is taking most of the risk and you have trouble free driving.

However, if you buy 2nd hand or if you want to keep it longer than 3 years and maybe plan to sell it on when its 5-10yrs old .what then? It seems to me that there is a small elephant in the room for this cohort of people as the battery is much more finite than a conventional engine.

I know there are stories of a taxi doing some large mileage but apparently the batteries dont die slowly over time, they die quickly after a "set" time. The replacement cost for these batteries will probably be more than the value of the car at that point thus you have a lemon once it happens.

While an ICE isnt cheap to replace it is relatively speaking a rare occurrence. You could have several 100k of driving and it would still be fine. If your engine did die you could repair it or get a 2nd hand fitted. There are cheap options(<€2k), certainly cheaper than a new battery pack(€6k?).

With an EV the battery is guaranteed to die(its just a matter of when) so this is surely going to have a bearing on the residual value of these cars over the coming years and the general distrust that people will have with a new technology will also play a part.

Basically, I'm concerned that it all sounds good on paper now but its a snake in the grass down the road. Also worryingly at this point is that its too early to actually know.

Im interested in the biased point of view of this forum! What am I missing?

KCross

Remind me again, were you thinking of buying new or 2nd hand , 24 Kwh battery or 30 ?

You're right to be cautious, nobody really knows and the 300-350 Km leaf will be available in late 2017 probably for early 2018 and this could do anything to depreciation , I'm hopefully going to change to the 60 Kwh when it arrives or whatever model EV is around , model S if not too expensive etc.

On the other hand the current Gen leaf battery is proving to be much more durable then the Gen I, but after 10-15 years you simply can't say for sure, I think if buying new and keeping it then I would buy the 30 Kwh because it has the potential to last longer again than the current battery due to improved chemistry and having more Kwh it will be cycles less helping to reduce one part of the ageing process.

The battery won't suddenly loose capacity, it is gradual. Most average mileage drivers probably won't even notice a 10% loss in capacity. And that could take a minimum of 5-10 years no one knows.

The larger the battery the less anyone will notice a 10 % loss, a 20% loss on the 60 Kwh would hardly be noticed either and it will still offer around 270 Kms. And still offer more range than the current Gen with 24 Kwh battery after a 30% loss have around 250 Kms range.

If you are worried then just wait until Gen II or buy MK 1.5 30 Kwh if your budget permits.

I think Gen 1.5 Leafs will make cracking good and hand cars that are ultra cheap to run, the 30 Kwh even more so.

KCross

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Remind me again, were you thinking of buying new or 2nd hand , 24 Kwh battery or 30 ?

Was looking at a deal on a 152 demo model (3.3/24kw), but also looking at 30kwh for 161 but as I said I'm still holding back as I feel the battery replacement issue is too big to ignore. I think I'll leave it a while longer. Get some real life feedback on the 30kwh first and then decide on whether I want to risk 2nd hand or go on a 3yr flip-it cycle.

In reality I don't really need 30kwh based on my commute but I'm thinking of resale value in years to come as it will obviously give you a larger pool of potential buyers.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

Was looking at a deal on a 152 demo model (3.3/24kw), but also looking at 30kwh for 161 but as I said I'm still holding back as I feel the battery replacement issue is too big to ignore. I think I'll leave it a while longer. Get some real life feedback on the 30kwh first and then decide on whether I want to risk 2nd hand or go on a 3yr flip-it cycle.

In reality I don't really need 30kwh based on my commute but I'm thinking of resale value in years to come as it will obviously give you a larger pool of potential buyers.

How long do you intend to keep it ? yearly mileage ?

I really don't think it will be an issue. Especially with the 30 Kwh.

And I expect the 30 kwh to be worth more 2nd hand.

KCross

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How long do you intend to keep it ? yearly mileage ?

I really don't think it will be an issue. Especially with the 30 Kwh.

And I expect the 30 kwh to be worth more 2nd hand.

How long to keep it?... Undecided, the market will make that decision for me.

Yearly mileage... 20k kms.

To protect yourself from depreciation, I suppose you have to keep flipping it which seems to be what most on here are doing... And no one has offered any rebuttal to the battery replacement argument yet so I'll wait for now.

galwaytt

KCross wrote: »

All
Im considering a Leaf and have read alot of the forum here and other sites and have done some detailed cost analysis vs my ICE.

One thing still bothers me and is holding me back... replacement of batteries thus affecting depreciation in an instant rather than gradually.

Its fine if you buy new and plan to change every 3 years via PCP, the dealer (i.e. Nissan) is taking most of the risk and you have trouble free driving.

However, if you buy 2nd hand or if you want to keep it longer than 3 years and maybe plan to sell it on when its 5-10yrs old .what then? It seems to me that there is a small elephant in the room for this cohort of people as the battery is much more finite than a conventional engine.

I know there are stories of a taxi doing some large mileage but apparently the batteries dont die slowly over time, they die quickly after a "set" time. The replacement cost for these batteries will probably be more than the value of the car at that point thus you have a lemon once it happens.

While an ICE isnt cheap to replace it is relatively speaking a rare occurrence. You could have several 100k of driving and it would still be fine. If your engine did die you could repair it or get a 2nd hand fitted. There are cheap options(<€2k), certainly cheaper than a new battery pack(€6k?).

With an EV the battery is guaranteed to die(its just a matter of when) so this is surely going to have a bearing on the residual value of these cars over the coming years and the general distrust that people will have with a new technology will also play a part.

Basically, I'm concerned that it all sounds good on paper now but its a snake in the grass down the road. Also worryingly at this point is that its too early to actually know.

Im interested in the biased point of view of this forum! What am I missing?

KCross

I see where you're coming from, but ICE's are not without their issues either. We're currently looking at daily drivers as ours (2005) is about to be declared unrepairable due to a new fuel injection pump - €3k, fitted. If I'd spent €55k on my car in 2005, that would be shockingly poor value for money over 10 years. Which puts the Leaf and a - possible - battery replacement as actually lower than ICE, not above it. And the car cost half what mine did to buy new in the first place.

Trying to get herself to try a Leaf but can't even get her to look at one.......and she commutes city centre everyday..........[sigh] :rolleyes:

Would love to try one for a week or something, as a 10 minute test drive is kinda useless. I'd even pay to try one.

stesaurus

galwaytt wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, but ICE's are not without their issues either. We're currently looking at daily drivers as ours (2005) is about to be declared unrepairable due to a new fuel injection pump - €3k, fitted. If I'd spent €55k on my car in 2005, that would be shockingly poor value for money over 10 years. Which puts the Leaf and a - possible - battery replacement as actually lower than ICE, not above it. And the car cost half what mine did to buy new in the first place.

Trying to get herself to try a Leaf but can't even get her to look at one.......and she commutes city centre everyday..........[sigh] :rolleyes:

Would love to try one for a week or something, as a 10 minute test drive is kinda useless. I'd even pay to try one.

I got about 4-5 day Test Drive on a Leaf and a weekend with an i3. They will offer it if you come in and are a serious buyer.

Why is she against a Leaf, badge snobbery? Maybe the i3 if you don't need 5 seats, it's so comfortable and large inside she'd love it and then when she puts the foot down hehe sold!

KCross

KCross wrote: »

How long to keep it?... Undecided, the market will make that decision for me.

Yearly mileage... 20k kms.

To protect yourself from depreciation, I suppose you have to keep flipping it which seems to be what most on here are doing... And no one has offered any rebuttal to the battery replacement argument yet so I'll wait for now.

I seriously doubt you'd notice a few % battery degradation over 5 years and 100,000 Kms , especially with the 30 Kwh.

The way you notice battery degradation is by taking the battery to the max range frequently other than this you won't notice a few % loss. The ideal thing is always to top up via AC or DC when you get the chance. Running the battery down to see what range you can do is a pointless exercise once you get familiar with it.

As Galwaytt said below, as ICE ages you can face large bills, at 100,000 you won't be facing anything with the Leaf maintenance wise.

There are some low mileage 4 year old Leafs with all 12 bars, they did suffer degradation a lot more then the current gen will or the 30 Kwh.