Road User Education

07Lapierre

Lets imagine for a second that the Government decided to introduce a License for Cyclists.

How would it be Introduced? Would they ban all cyclists from the roads from Midnight? Or would they do what they did with the driving licenses in the 60's and issue an "Amnesty" to everyone who is currently cycling? (maybe everyone who has a CI license would be exempt) If they did that..How would the Gardaí know which cyclists have or do not have a licence?

My own opinion is they would do neither. Instead they would simply announce that every cyclist must apply for a licences before a specific date. Anyone caught cycling after that date and did not have a licence would be issued a FPN and maybe have their bike impounded. Wait...FPN's...don't we have those already? Don't the Gardai have the power to impound bikes already?

The only cyclists who would be affected are those who break the ROTR and are actually stopped by a Garda! For the rest of us it would be business as usual. By Business as usual I mean we would still be one of the most venerable road users who would still have to run the gauntlet of motorised traffic every day. I cant see motorists giving a cyclist more road space once this new law was passed can you?

endagibson

magicbastarder wrote: »

there's a consistent undercurrent of 'well, car drivers should have to do it, so cyclists should have to do it too'. there's plenty of things car drivers have to do that cyclists don't, and there's no point in me listing out the reasons again.

Indeed there is not. The OP's motives, and he's not alone in this, are to get people on bikes off the road and out of the way. For most of these threads the OP is at least courageous enough to pin their colours to the mast right from the start with a title like "Whatever should we do with lawless cyclists?" or something similiar. However, this thread was deceptive from the start. "Hmm, I'd like to thoughtfully muse a while on the problem that is road education and how we can make our roads safer. Here's some statistics, which I will now ignore. But what about those pesky cyclists, eh?" Puzzling when compared to the RSA statistics provided that show in no uncertain terms where the problem lies. Add in some waffle about visibility when those statistics also show that the majority of collisions occur during periods described as "Daylight, visibility good" and this thread becomes farcical.

What should happen is that these threads are ignored.

endagibson

07Lapierre wrote: »

we would still be one of the most venerable road users who would still have to run the gauntlet of motorised traffic every day.

Certainly. We're like knights when you think about it.

I want to add a smilie of some sort after the above sentence, but no matter what options I select in Control Panel, it doesn't appear.

CramCycle

I had a long response written but there doesn't seem to be a point. The driving test as it stands is not a suitable testing system for drivers (as witnessed by drivers on our road today), its merely an obstacle to keep people off the roads longer as our infrastructure can't handle the amount we have, which is fair enough, as well as a system for monitoring the most dangerous of all motorists who happen to get caught, but to be honest, should either, never have been allowed control a vehicle in excess of a tonne in weight or should have been taken off the roads after the first infraction or banned permanently after the first major one.

The suggested tests for cyclists here fall between redundant or if your going that far why not go the whole hog as otherwise it falls under the inadequacies of the driving test. The truth is though, that the reason that a test is mandatory for motor vehicles does not apply to cyclists for the above reasons.

The simplest and most effective system is to bring in road safety and road usage as a pedestrian and cyclist into the education system, over time this takes out the excuse of not knowing.

But yet again, this is only a civility matter and statistically speaking, not a health and safety one, as pedestrians and cyclists do not go around causing major damage on a daily basis. There are a few pedestrians and cyclists who cause risk to themselves, and over time, hopefully the educational route will lower this.

Its like the red man at a crossing. In many other countries, at a time when cars do not need or don't have the right of way, he is a green man. In Ireland he is red until a button is pressed, which then often takes 30 seconds minimum, often more, to change. So we start of as pedestrians trained to dart across the road when we think its OK, rather than the red man being a warning, he is a sign to be ignored (what I think is OK, what you think is OK and what Joe Bloggs beside us thinks is OK can be completely different and more often than not, we could all be wrong). This carries through in a number of people in their cycling and driving. It ranges from the private motorists who went through the red (this morning myself and a car had stopped and this RLJer drove between us and straight through). To the cyclist who overtook the 8 cyclists at the goat junction waiting on a green and plonked himself in front when he realised traffic was to heavy. To the pedestrian who dragged her child across a junction in Tallaght yesterday, who I could hear saying to her child we can ignore the lights as we are late for school, and the WVM and myself just politely waited for her to do this.

Pinch Flat

CramCycle wrote: »

The simplest and most effective system is to bring in road safety and road usage as a pedestrian and cyclist into the education system, over time this takes out the excuse of not knowing.

This is the key - starting in schools are primary age. My school in Waterford in the 1970's had a marked out play ground and we had instruction in how to cycle properly. This seemed to be championed by a particular teacher we had, who went every where on his bike.

Rolling this out in schools at primary level and perhaps junior cert (or whatever it's called now) would be surely a way of formalizing this - children leave school with some sort of competency based exam (as a subject) then forms the basis for their future lives as road users and pedestrians.

At the moment, what I find really disheartening is the standard of learner and N-plated drivers. It demonstrates a tick-box approach to testing, rather than a solid basis in competency and awareness.

On red light jumping, it's gotten to comical proportions, certainly in Dublin - to the extent I will not trust a red light anymore as a guarantee that someone's not coming through. That is as a cyclist, pedestrian and motorist.

My daily commute take me from West Dublin to the city center - I've seen a few nuggets over this week. One driver broke 2 sets of reds in Laurel Lodge, just past Castleknock, yesterday evening - sure the road was empty, so grand.

Another managed to break two sets of green pedestrian crossings at Mount Street in the city center yesterday - so one going straight through, then turned right across another pedestrian crossing - much to the surprise of those crossing on a green man - and headed up the canal. Sure he was in a rush and the traffic is cat, so all is good.

The phoenix park at both ends is notorious - park gate street is a joke coming from chapelizod - 2 or 3 cars will frequently sail through the red, the other end at castleknock is the same - motorists will accelerate down the hill to the lights, and squeeze through the gate several seconds after their own red light.

The system is utterly broken and unenforced for motorists at present, so not sure what rolling out licences to cyclists would achieve.

Carawaystick

I'd regularly see dublin busses sail through red lights at the pedestrian crossing at the Swan pub in Dublin. They're supposed to have certs of professional competency, so I'm not sure education is the solution...

Pinch Flat

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'd regularly see dublin busses sail through red lights at the pedestrian crossing at the Swan pub in Dublin. They're supposed to have certs of professional competency, so I'm not sure education is the solution...

Junctions at St Stephens green / merrion row, Wexford st / cuffe st also a regular occurrence.

Roadhawk

endagibson wrote: »

Indeed there is not. The OP's motives, and he's not alone in this, are to get people on bikes off the road and out of the way. For most of these threads the OP is at least courageous enough to pin their colours to the mast right from the start with a title like "Whatever should we do with lawless cyclists?" or something similiar. However, this thread was deceptive from the start. "Hmm, I'd like to thoughtfully muse a while on the problem that is road education and how we can make our roads safer. Here's some statistics, which I will now ignore. But what about those pesky cyclists, eh?" Puzzling when compared to the RSA statistics provided that show in no uncertain terms where the problem lies. Add in some waffle about visibility when those statistics also show that the majority of collisions occur during periods described as "Daylight, visibility good" and this thread becomes farcical.

What should happen is that these threads are ignored.

I have taken your suggestion on board and created a new thread called "Whatever should we do with lawless cyclists?". thanks

Roadhawk

07Lapierre wrote: »

Lets imagine for a second that the Government decided to introduce a License for Cyclists.

How would it be Introduced? Would they ban all cyclists from the roads from Midnight? Or would they do what they did with the driving licenses in the 60's and issue an "Amnesty" to everyone who is currently cycling? (maybe everyone who has a CI license would be exempt) If they did that..How would the Gardaí know which cyclists have or do not have a licence?

My own opinion is they would do neither. Instead they would simply announce that every cyclist must apply for a licences before a specific date. Anyone caught cycling after that date and did not have a licence would be issued a FPN and maybe have their bike impounded. Wait...FPN's...don't we have those already? Don't the Gardai have the power to impound bikes already?

The only cyclists who would be affected are those who break the ROTR and are actually stopped by a Garda! For the rest of us it would be business as usual. By Business as usual I mean we would still be one of the most venerable road users who would still have to run the gauntlet of motorised traffic every day. I cant see motorists giving a cyclist more road space once this new law was passed can you?

Thats true, it would be no easy task to have all cyclists licensed but it cant not be done just because its a hard task.

07Lapierre

Roadhawk wrote: »

Thats true, it would be no easy task to have all cyclists licensed but it cant not be done just because its a hard task.

OK, but I think it would end up being like the Dog license....not enforced and therefore ignored by the majority of the population.

CramCycle

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Junctions all across Dublin this is also a regular occurrence.

FYP

07Lapierre wrote: »

OK, but I think it would end up being like the Dog license....not enforced and therefore ignored by the majority of the population.

My dogs are chipped and registered but I don't know if that includes a license. Seems odd and stupid if it doesn't but I may be a criminal now, I feel like such a rebel.

07Lapierre

CramCycle wrote: »

FYP


My dogs are chipped and registered but I don't know if that includes a license. Seems odd and stupid if it doesn't but I may be a criminal now, I feel like such a rebel.

You could be right..to be honest, I don't even have a dog myself and I wouldn't know where to get a dog license (if it even exits at all)

Alun

07Lapierre wrote: »

You could be right..to be honest, I don't even have a dog myself and I wouldn't know where to get a dog license (if it even exits at all)

Yes they do exist, and have done for ages, you get them at the Post Office.

http://www.anpost.ie/AnPost/MainContent/Personal+Customers/More+from+An+Post/Dog+Licence/dog_licence.htm

CramCycle

07Lapierre wrote: »

You could be right..to be honest, I don't even have a dog myself and I wouldn't know where to get a dog license (if it even exits at all)

An post sort them out apparently, I have never heard of them being bought by anyone. I presume the thinking is to assign blame in case of an accident but until chipping came in, that would have been difficult enough. Now that chipping is wide spread, and my understanding is it is a legal requirement, i presume that the license bit has been taken off the books as the required chipping covers this in a far more logical way.

07Lapierre

Alun wrote: »

Yes they do exist, and have done for ages, you get them at the Post Office.

http://www.anpost.ie/AnPost/MainContent/Personal+Customers/More+from+An+Post/Dog+Licence/dog_licence.htm

Do they just issue them to you? or do you have to pass a test?
There you go @Cramcycle your officially a rebel!

haskellgeek

You can get one at the post office if you have one :P, though they may look equally confused

monument

Locked. Troll.