Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Ceist_Beag

Even simple hand passes were being dropped yesterday. I don't think it was a day to risk short puck outs. Once the ball went to ground it was proving very hard to get it back to hand again as well.

usualstripes

Looking at the match yesterday a few things spring to mind;

1) We need to be quicker and more assured in possession. We were caught a number of times in possession.
2) We cannot have a situation whereby waterford had 8 men under the dropping ball. Where were their markers, our own men? Wed have top try to drag lads into positions that brings their markers with them rather than allowing them to support under the dropping ball.
3) Spraying diagonal, crossfield balls or direct into the corners to try to pull their men out of position and more importantly out of their comfort zone. I know that they play a sweeper but we have to be far cuter in our deliveries. This means our forwards are never static and always looking for a ball in space, pulling out their backs and either taking our own score or offloading to a man in a better position.
4) Our strength in fielding and under the dropping ball was uncharacteristically poor yesterday but that will improve over the coming weeks.
5) Strength in the ruck or breaking ball will have to be upped, we got horsed out of it in these congested areas yesterday.

danganabu

mullinr2 wrote: »

Anyone else think that Tipp will do a clean sweep this year - league, munster and all ireland. They have a forward line to be envious of. If you really think about it only TJ and R.Hogan would make their forward line. It's their forward line that will probably bring them a 3 in a row All Ireland

I really can't over emphasise how absolutely terrible Dublin were, they are in very big trouble and don't think that Cunningham will last the year.

Topcat32 wrote: »

a pretty average Limerick team were only beaten by 3 points against them last year.

Being a little disingenuous with the truth there Topcat, wiki doesnt always tell the full story!!

dzer2 wrote: »

ah lads Waterford took everything man or ball they wont get away with that on a faster pitch and a decent ref

Horgan is brutal imo, I have watched him all the way up along and the amount he has regressed in the last few years since making the inter-county referees panel is frightening.

Topcat32

I see Kierans had a good win at the weekend and CBS were going well untill their match was abandoned. A good few Kk players in the Good Council team as well and the best player on a decent Borris Vocational school team is from Paulstown. It seems like we have never been no dominant in that competition over the last few years which is odd giving the generally negative feeling around underage county teams over the last few years.

Topcat32

danganabu wrote: »

I really can't over emphasise how absolutely terrible Dublin were, they are in very big trouble and don't think that Cunningham will last the year.



Being a little disingenuous with the truth there Topcat, wiki doesnt always tell the full story!!



Horgan is brutal imo, I have watched him all the way up along and the amount he has regressed in the last few years since making the inter-county referees panel is frightening.

Ah the match was televised and I do live in Limerick so I did watch the match, you did only win by 3 points, I said Tipp give teams chances, doesnt one of your best players getting stupidly sent off and giving away late goals to a team that you are much better than meet that discription??

usualstripes

usualstripes wrote: »

Looking at the match yesterday a few things spring to mind;

1) We need to be quicker and more assured in possession. We were caught a number of times in possession.
2) We cannot have a situation whereby waterford had 8 men under the dropping ball. Where were their markers, our own men? Wed have top try to drag lads into positions that brings their markers with them rather than allowing them to support under the dropping ball.
3) Spraying diagonal, crossfield balls or direct into the corners to try to pull their men out of position and more importantly out of their comfort zone. I know that they play a sweeper but we have to be far cuter in our deliveries. This means our forwards are never static and always looking for a ball in space, pulling out their backs and either taking our own score or offloading to a man in a better position.
4) Our strength in fielding and under the dropping ball was uncharacteristically poor yesterday but that will improve over the coming weeks.
5) Strength in the ruck or breaking ball will have to be upped, we got horsed out of it in these congested areas yesterday.

Just to add to the above i dont think there is any need to be too down on this, this was the 1st match of the league, we have had 5 in the Walsh cup, which included a selection of u21s in dunmore for the 1st match in the Walsh cup.
The lads will come on and yesterdays match will have done them no harm at all, in fact it will spur them on to make the necessary improvements.
Also take into consideration the following guys;

Colin Fennelly - will be back in action in the next few weeks
James Maher - improving on his fitness and will be a big addition
Ger Aylward - will improve his fitness after a long spell off
John Walsh - will hopefully be involved when colleges are finished
Kevin Kelly - will be retraining from colleges also
Mark Kelly - not sure where he is at atm
Mark Bergin - not sure where he is at atm either
Luke Scanlon - not sure where he is at atm either
Mick Fennelly - probably looking at late may at least
Evan Cody - will get his chance
Conor Delaney - hopefully will come on to the panel at some stage if not already in training

The backs will improve if Padraig gets a sustained run in there. This will settle things down and once the whole panel gets training together i have no doubt we will see a different team performance to yesterday.
A big effort will be required in Ennis this weekend though as we need to get a few points on the board.

randd1

Topcat32 wrote: »

I see Kierans had a good win at the weekend and CBS were going well untill their match was abandoned. A good few Kk players in the Good Council team as well and the best player on a decent Borris Vocational school team is from Paulstown. It seems like we have never been no dominant in that competition over the last few years which is odd giving the generally negative feeling around underage county teams over the last few years.

I think we put too much emphasis on schools to be honest. Take last year for example, we had a huge influence on the schools junior and senior competitions last year, with Kierans winning a three in a row at senior.

But they weren't training with the county, and a team that was full of talent but hadn't worked together came up against a good Dublin team that had the work done and became a cropper.

When you think of what a Thurles CBS inspired Tipp team did at minor last year, it makes you wonder what could have been had we put a bit more focus on getting the minors right for the Dublin game.

Not to mention that a lot of the intermediate and junior AI success over the last 5/6 years have been driven by young club teams, it makes you wonder how we're not progressing lads as much as we should be.

Have to say the standard of senior club hurling in the county has been very poor and free ridden the last few years, very few creative or dominant players are coming through with senior clubs, Mullen and Cody from Ballyhale apart really.

brookville

usualstripes wrote: »

Just to add to the above i dont think there is any need to be too down on this, this was the 1st match of the league, we have had 5 in the Walsh cup, which included a selection of u21s in dunmore for the 1st match in the Walsh cup.
The lads will come on and yesterdays match will have done them no harm at all, in fact it will spur them on to make the necessary improvements.
Also take into consideration the following guys;

Colin Fennelly - will be back in action in the next few weeks
James Maher - improving on his fitness and will be a big addition
Ger Aylward - will improve his fitness after a long spell off
John Walsh - will hopefully be involved when colleges are finished
Kevin Kelly - will be retraining from colleges also
Mark Kelly - not sure where he is at atm
Mark Bergin - not sure where he is at atm either
Luke Scanlon - not sure where he is at atm either
Mick Fennelly - probably looking at late may at least
Evan Cody - will get his chance
Conor Delaney - hopefully will come on to the panel at some stage if not already in training

The backs will improve if Padraig gets a sustained run in there. This will settle things down and once the whole panel gets training together i have no doubt we will see a different team performance to yesterday.
A big effort will be required in Ennis this weekend though as we need to get a few points on the board.

Theres no doubt we'll improve as the year progresses I remember last year the first day out it was the same thing but this time we had more newcomers
Sunday is really a must win game away to clare.
As far as I know mark kelly isn't on the panel while bergin is currently injured

danganabu

randd1 wrote: »

When you think of what a Thurles CBS inspired Tipp team did at minor last year, it makes you wonder what could have been had we put a bit more focus on getting the minors right for the Dublin game

I don't think there was a single Thurles CBS player on the Tipp team, Templemore and Nenagh provide the majority.

danganabu

Topcat32 wrote: »

Ah the match was televised and I do live in Limerick so I did watch the match, you did only win by 3 points, I said Tipp give teams chances, doesnt one of your best players getting stupidly sent off and giving away late goals to a team that you are much better than meet that discription??

Fair enough, still think its a silly arguement and a meaningless sample size but each to their own as they say!

Topcat32

danganabu wrote: »

Fair enough, still think its a silly arguement and a meaningless sample size but each to their own as they say!

Only thing I got wrong was that you won by two points. I didnt say you were not the much better team on the day. I think its fair comment that Tipp have not always killed off teams when in strong positions over the last few years. Obviously that changed in the final but it still does give hope to other teams which they probably didnt have against us when Kilkenny were in their prime.

mountgomery burns

ttowncat wrote: »

Hoganstand have it that lester will be out for a few weeks with appendix. Richie hogan doesn't have the pace or long enough legs for the corner.. he's either loose centre forward or midfield for me.
Is the panel finalised does anyone know? Or is there a cull coming? I thought Ollie Walsh was unlucky to be called ashore... dunno if we'll see jonjo again?

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Waterford win an all Ireland but not if they turn the game into rugby and puke football.. It must be very frustrating playing against that ****e- hopefully it'll get them nowhere.

I'd be expecting trouble for Ger Cunningham with the dubs too.. that short tappy game he's trying to get them to play along with the type of panel he's investing in is awful stuff..

I think that's pretty unfair to be honest. For the first 45 mins Waterford played a pretty expansive game and there was always at least two in the full forward line. Kilkenny often dragged Eoin Larkin out to do a similar function around the middle.

Waterford created 3 goal scoring chances and a lot of good ball was played to Curran and Devine in that period. With regard to midfield rucks, when Waterford were getting the ball they were bottled up as well and found it very hard to burst forward due to the number of Kilkenny bodies around. It's a slower game this time of year and with the cold there was a lot of fumbles and mis control, you don't get second chances at that level. I'd far rather see a game like yesterday than one with zero intensity such as the Cork Dublin league game a couple of years ago where Cork got 21 points by half time.

Waterford retreated second half and Kilkenny actually game into it more but his could be as much to do with players tiring as much as it was predesigbed to protect a lead. Tadhg Bourke didn't stand in front of Barry Coughlan all game and he covers a serious amount of ground. Kilkenny have a tendency to drop the center forward out to midfield, he wouldn't be a very good center back if he was to leave 60 yards of space in front of his full back in order to man mark a center forward.

Topcat32

mountgomery burns wrote: »

I think that's pretty unfair to be honest. For the first 45 mins Waterford played a pretty expansive game and there was always at least two in the full forward line. Kilkenny often dragged Eoin Larkin out to do a similar function around the middle.

Waterford created 3 goal scoring chances and a lot of good ball was played to Curran and Devine in that period. With regard to midfield rucks, when Waterford were getting the ball they were bottled up as well and found it very hard to burst forward due to the number of Kilkenny bodies around. It's a slower game this time of year and with the cold there was a lot of fumbles and mis control, you don't get second chances at that level. I'd far rather see a game like yesterday than one with zero intensity such as the Cork Dublin league game a couple of years ago where Cork got 21 points by half time.

Waterford retreated second half and Kilkenny actually game into it more but his could be as much to do with players tiring as much as it was predesigbed to protect a lead. Tadhg Bourke didn't stand in front of Barry Coughlan all game and he covers a serious amount of ground. Kilkenny have a tendency to drop the center forward out to midfield, he wouldn't be a very good center back if he was to leave 60 yards of space in front of his full back in order to man mark a center forward.

I think thats pretty fair, I thought yesterday was a decent match for this time of year. I would doubt if anybody fron Tipp was overly worried about anything they saw tho, non many stand out performances on either side.

danganabu

Topcat32 wrote: »

Only thing I got wrong was that you won by two points. I didnt say you were not the much better team on the day. I think its fair comment that Tipp have not always killed off teams when in strong positions over the last few years. Obviously that changed in the final but it still does give hope to other teams which they probably didnt have against us when Kilkenny were in their prime.

And the Munster Final and the first round. Your example is based on a game where Tipp played three quarters of the game with 14 players in absolute awful conditions and never at any stage looked in trouble or in danger of not winning. It's the ultimate straw man arguement.

ttowncat

Suppose it's a matter of opinion of where wou draw the line on what is overly defensive, puke and blanket hurling. Yes kilkenny started the drop back of wing forwards to defend space against the cork running game of the early naughties, but Kilkenny didn't regularly set up for puck outs with most of the team in the middle third-> a lot of the time a forward would track back as an outlet for the ball if our backs were under siege and hence find himself in his own team's half..

I think it all slightly compares with (something related to but not nearly as extreme) as what mickey Harte did with Tyrone and what everyone thought was a blanket.. but Donegal in football and Waterford in hurling have taken it to a whole new level and now football is ruined..
Where do you draw the line with how the game is played is your own opinion- that everyone stays in their programme positions and midfielders operate between the 45s? Or Anthony daly sweeper system? Or Clare running around everywhere? Or half forwards tracking back deeper? Etc but in my opinion Football has gotten so bad that they will have to intervene with rule changes to make it watchable and if the Waterford defensive level infects hurling in the same way then it too will need rule changes...
The silver lining is that at least Waterford know that the defensive system will not get them over the line in the summer but that it is just about effective for winter hurling.. but the amount of rucks and three men boxing in a player is terrible ****e to watch and there's no way there would have been that many if Kilkenny had been playing anyone else yesterday...

Topcat32

danganabu wrote: »

And the Munster Final and the first round. Your example is based on a game where Tipp played three quarters of the game with 14 players in absolute awful conditions and never at any stage looked in trouble or in danger of not winning. It's the ultimate straw man arguement.

I think you think you might want to look up the definition of what a straw man "arguement" is, or possibly you mean argument, wiki might help.

mountgomery burns

The two games between Kilkenny and Waterford in the championship last year were the two best games of the championship. The two league games were not entertaining contests to that effect. This isn't by any means me bragging over winning a league match, but I think your frustration watching Waterford crowd out Kilkenny might be colouring your judgement on what was entertaining.

If Waterford were as negative as you are suggesting, they wouldn't have created three clear cut goal chances. I don't see how Waterford are anything like Donegal at their worst and I also think Waterford are more expansive than two years ago.

ttowncat

I take your point on KK being partly culprits in rucks etc. yes Waterford are more expansive than 2 years ago when they just had maurice shanahan to aim for but they are engaging in two defensive methods at the same time which makes them more defensive than anyone else-> clogging the middle and the sweeper. Hopefully this summer they will hurl with the abandon of their U21s and learn the lessons of retreating into their shell to protect a lead but I have a feeling that they haven't and on another day Kilkenny would have caught them at the finish. I'm delighted I couldn't travel for this match regardless of the result as the free flowing and quality of hurling wasn't there as well as the display from some of the Kilkenny lads was abysmal (although if they were playing in a more open game they might have showed better, who knows..)
And it's not always the case that entertaining means quality.. close games with a chase at the finish usually make for entertaining and exciting. Allowing for the winter conditions and rustiness it was still more like a game of rugby..

blackcard

Watergord seemed to be more up for the game yesterday as evidenced by the antics of Dan and Waterford winning all the rucks. Cody will store this for later in the year as he will the"attention" that Blanchfield got from Coughlan. Any word on Blanchfield's injury?

blackcard

After years where ex kk players had no media involvement, there is now a flood of players involved. David Herity, Michael Kavanagh, JJ Delaney, Jackie Tyrrell, Brian Hogan, Henry Shefflin, Eddie Brennan, Aidan Fogarty spring to mind. Any of that generation likely to get involved in coaching?

brookville

Just looking the match this sunday we always find it difficult down in ennis and they have some class hurlers but it's unlikely tony kelly will play and conor mgrath and a few more of their key players are either injured or recovering from injury we really have to get two points
I also think clare are aiming for the summer and getting their key men right because they won the league last year and couldn't progress come championship time where as cork look like they've a lot of work done and the league is more important.
For ourselves disappointed to lose at home but it's the first day out of the league and this is a very good waterford side who were better on the day.like every year we'll improve as it moves along and the goals will also come.
This league should be used to try bed in young players on the panel and if we can get 3 or 4 players and stay up I'd be happy.lyng done well yesterday and leahy got on a few balls but he looks very light he probably needs another year or two,hopefully we see scanlon and john walsh in the coming weeks but there probably suited to hard summer ground.
I read a interview with coady today and he said that he won't have any of the injured players back next wknd kevin kelly,colin,ger and obviously lester for a few weeks

Topcat32

blackcard wrote: »

After years where ex kk players had no media involvement, there is now a flood of players involved. David Herity, Michael Kavanagh, JJ Delaney, Jackie Tyrrell, Brian Hogan, Henry Shefflin, Eddie Brennan, Aidan Fogarty spring to mind. Any of that generation likely to get involved in coaching?

Michael Kavanagh has done some work with Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard teams, Eddie is over the under 21s, apart from that I dont think the others are involved but they are mostly mid 30s so plenty of time yet.

Topcat32

brookville wrote: »

Just looking the match this sunday we always find it difficult down in ennis and they have some class hurlers but it's unlikely tony kelly will play and conor mgrath and a few more of their key players are either injured or recovering from injury we really have to get two points
I also think clare are aiming for the summer and getting their key men right because they won the league last year and couldn't progress come championship time where as cork look like they've a lot of work done and the league is more important.
For ourselves disappointed to lose at home but it's the first day out of the league and this is a very good waterford side who were better on the day.like every year we'll improve as it moves along and the goals will also come.
This league should be used to try bed in young players on the panel and if we can get 3 or 4 players and stay up I'd be happy.lyng done well yesterday and leahy got on a few balls but he looks very light he probably needs another year or two,hopefully we see scanlon and john walsh in the coming weeks but there probably suited to hard summer ground.
I read a interview with coady today and he said that he won't have any of the injured players back next wknd kevin kelly,colin,ger and obviously lester for a few weeks

For Sunday I believe Colm Galvin, who is a class hurler is out.

brookville

Topcat32 wrote: »

For Sunday I believe Colm Galvin, who is a class hurler is out.

Love watching galvin,kelly and mgrath when their on song

dubcat51

More like rugby than hurling last week.Interesting that waterford stayed along time in the dressing room at half time.then they came out and played the sweeper for the second half.which way will mc grath go vome championship or will he go defensive when they have a lead.

blackcard

brookville wrote: »

Topcat32 wrote: »

For Sunday I believe Colm Galvin, who is a class hurler is out.

Love watching galvin,kelly and mgrath when their on song

Be very interesting to see how Clare go without Davy, hope they are allowed play to their potential

Faugheen

Disappointing, but we nearly got relegated 2 years ago and still won the Championship.

I'm not saying the League doesn't matter, of course it does, but it's not always an omen of what's in store for the season.

We go again.

brookville

Faugheen wrote: »

Disappointing, but we nearly got relegated 2 years ago and still won the Championship.

I'm not saying the League doesn't matter, of course it does, but it's not always an omen of what's in store for the season.

We go again.

Galway were relegated and only ended up losing by a point to tipp in the semi final,I'd prefer to see lads tried and staying up than winning it

Village87

IMO last Sundays game was won by a Waterford team gaining experience and confidence in winning. They are hard to beat in the system they play, seem to copy Kilkennys system of bring back the half forward line to congest the middle with work rate and winning hard ball, therefore freeing up the full forward line with space.

Good showing by TJ & Eoin Murphy after that we were in trouble. half back line and midfield played a big part in the forwards poor showing, distribution was awful, to slow on the balland a lot of mistakes.

Joyce, Murphy ,Buckley & Fogarty are very slow on the ball seem to have trouble clearing it, and so many mistakes and turnovers. There skill level seems to me to be a lot slower that Padraig Walsh, Tommy Walsh and JJ Delaney, Cha etc when playing out the field.

Hawkeye6

brookville wrote: »

Faugheen wrote: »

Disappointing, but we nearly got relegated 2 years ago and still won the Championship.

I'm not saying the League doesn't matter, of course it does, but it's not always an omen of what's in store for the season.

We go again.

Galway were relegated and only ended up losing by a point to tipp in the semi final,I'd prefer to see lads tried and staying up  than winning it

I'd prefer to Win it.