Where would you go next...

carsfan2

Looks like vw have done some serious price reductions including on the new id7 if the EV forum is correct it’s now coming in mid 50’s which is where it will be more competitive.

SeanaciousD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461475#Comment_121461475

I wasn't comparing interior quality, I said:

1) The Seal has a longer wheelbase than the i4 (true, 2920mm vs 2856mm)

2) The interior room of the Seal is closer to that of an i5 than an i4 (also true, given wheelbase and Cell to Body chassis)

Interior quality is subjective, but I found it nicer than my F30 330e. It's a nice interior, and it's included features and quality deserve it to be compared to the likes of BMW or Audi, because it's a lot closer to those brands in terms of "premium" feel rather than "feels cheap for the price", that award goes to VW. Besides that, interior quality and driving dynamics (let's be honest, all EV's are heavy so BMW can't do much here anymore) just can't make up for a €40,000-70,000 price difference.

(Edit: Warning: Incoming rant 😉)

And therin lies the problem, it's also why this thread essentially died. 4 years ago a 530e was ~€60k, half of that used. A fair chunk of change but doable for a lot of the general public who had a decent job. Now they are looking to upgrade to an EV, but the equivalent 5 series now starts at €91,000 minimum?! Has the middle class who buys these cars had a 50% pay rise in 4 years? NO! If anything, inflation has left them with less disposable income....

So that's why people aren't upgrading anymore, why would they when car prices have gone completely insane?

Except of course they will upgrade, if the price is right. Tesla knows this and so do the Chinese brands. Looks like VW just woke up and smelled the coffee in the last 24 hours, because they've slashed their EV range by almost €10k across the board. I actually showed one of the new ID4's to a relative, who promptly rang the dealer who said plain as day that their EV sales have collapsed. Of course they have when Tesla and China are offering objectively better value cars, but I'm happy to see they've realized it's game on now, maybe that will revive this thread.

Maybe BMW will wake up too, once they realize their (EV) market share is about to collapse too. We the buyer are not stupid BMW, the i5 e40 and i5 M60 have the same battery, so why then does it cost €30,000 more to put an extra electric motor and some trim pieces in? That kind of market segmentation doesn't work in the EV world anymore. Tesla and the Chinese brands show the common sense here, it costs a few grand more, and that's it.

User1998

Its funny how there was a recent thread about main dealers only having a 5% or 10% profit margin on new cars yet VW can just slash €10k off their cars over night. A new iD4 is only €41k now which seems quite reasonable.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462376#Comment_121462376

those two things are mutually exclusive to be fair and when they cut the retail prices it decimates used stock as well.

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461675#Comment_121461675

Not seeing that on the link provided a couple of days ago. Still 69k

https://www.volkswagen.ie/en/build.html/__app/id-7.app

Theboinkmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462036#Comment_121462036

In terms of overall car pricing and BMW i agree 100% - i see they're already doing 2.9% finance offers on the i4. Overall inflation and higher interest rates have to catch up on people's disposable income at some stage.

I 100% agree BMW will do something as sales will stagnate and be much worse than what they planned. I dont see them reducing prices but what i think they'll do is offer low finance offers first and add on packs and extras to make it more desirable.

They've also been very sneaky which i dont like - you can get a 520i m sport for €72k with HK audio as standard. But problem is HK audio on the g60 isn't the same as previous or other current models it's a rebrand on the base audio. So now the HK audio is the base and B&O system is HK. I really didn't like that as so sneaky and will trick a casual customer.

Will be an interesting 12 months anyway.

Casati

Rationally BMW high pricing on EV’s is a sign they don’t want to sell them. The 530e is circa 20k less than the i5 and both attract the same 7% vrt

Surely the i5 is the cheaper car to make - ie doesn’t have an engine yet the phev still has not only an engine, turbo, gearbox and all the other expensive moving parts, but also a motor, battery pack etc.

MarkN

Passat not coming to Ireland.

The ID.7 interior is a huge upgrade on the current ID range and the software etc is a lot nicer to use but price really is going to be everything. I’m just back from the launch of the Dolphin and the level of kit in these cars is just in another league compared to the traditional brands. Every single model starting from 25k has a heat pump. Every model has a 360 camera.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121463180#Comment_121463180

What's the thinking among yourself and your peers in the motor reviewing industry about future price levels, particularly of high end stuff. Is the reduced price level of say Tesla, BYD and now Volkswagen by the looks of things going to force everyone's hands, particularly the 3 big Germans? Is the 5 series class of car going to return to the 70k kind of price range in EV guise. Or is there still huge uncertainty

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465350#Comment_121465350

I think a lot of buyers now are different to years ago - i.e. where somebody would get to 5 series level and stayed there till they retire and get a 3 series. Buyers will flip flop between premium brands to economy brands a lot easier now hence VW have taken massive action to cut prices and really put it up to Tesla, BYD etc. They of course still have the trump card of a strong dealer network which is very important for a lot of customers- i.e. those not arsed becoming using car salesman themselves and dealing with idiots on DoneDeal offering silly money etc.

VW cuts are on all their EV's, I see the even the Buzz is now under 55k. I think that the result of the price cuts will kill off petrol/ diesel sales that much faster- as somebody who is waiting on a 50k+ Octavia to arrive in Jan I'm having slight buyer regret thinking I could have got GTX for not much more

roosterman71

Where are you seeing these VW price cuts? Nothing on the VW site showing price cuts in Ireland

MarkN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465350#Comment_121465350

I think the first quarter of 2024 will be a great time to buy a car if you’re a good negotiator. I’m not sure if BMW are of the discounting kind. Equally, never say never. VW are hungry for market share, more than BMW, that I do know.

Similar to a potential housing price wobble, when people aren’t confident about buying a car because they feel the price they’re being asked to pay could drop again a month later, it’s not good for the overall industry.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121466758#Comment_121466758

Donedeal

goochy

Importer makes a decent profit so can. Afford to cut prices

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121466758#Comment_121466758

Website is slow to change.

These massive price cuts are at dealer level, ring around Joe Duffy in Dublin. Brand new ID4 Family was €65k last week, €48k now.

some of the lower trim are €42k, 38k with a scrappage.

maddness

This was always my favourite thread on Boards but has been dead the past year or more. I’d class myself as a massive petrol head and change my car a few times every year but even I can’t ignore EV’s anymore. When a Tesla or a BYD is so cheap I find it hard to justify paying so much more for a BMW which has always been my favourite car brand. I think Mark makes a good point about buying a car in the next few months, there will be a lot of bargains. I’m considering a few different cars to buy next, all used and there seems to be a lot of price cuts in the used market too.

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468774#Comment_121468774

If the Arteon drops, I'm in

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468962#Comment_121468962

I called into my local BMW dealer last week as I was passing them. Got a ridiculous cost to change for my 171 430d against a 231 i4 with around 9k on the clock. It was a fairly miserable spec too, only had the M Sport Pro pack on it and nothing else. They wanted nearly 8k more than a Dublin BMW dealer wanted for a higher spec i4 I looked at a few weeks back with the windscreen price about 5k higher too. I didn't even bother driving it as I had no interest but their car has been sitting on their forecourt since around July and it's no surprise why. They have a 1 year old M50 too and wanted similar cost to change money.

As for BMW dropping prices, I wouldn't expect much in the way of them reacting to the VW fire sales. They might be forced into it alright if the likes of Audi and Mercedes start having EV fire sales too alright. But with cheaper Chinese brands coming in and traditional non premium brands like VW having to introduce big price cuts to their range, premium brands with very high prices are now starting to look very overpriced and maybe unattainable to those who previously bought them. Something will have to give though if these premium brands want to sell cars going forward. Cars like the i5 and E Class are becoming very rare on these shores at current prices.

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469040#Comment_121469040

I'd say you might get a favourable deal on a new Arteon if you are happy to take a dealer stock car. They are now going into the final year of production and I don't think VW have any plans to directly replace it either. It seems even the new Passat only available as an estate, won't make it to these shores so the ID 7 will probably replace both long term.

SeanaciousD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469198#Comment_121469198

I wouldn't even necessarily say it's because they are unattainable, it's that they don't offer enough for the price gap anymore.

Like compare a Passat to a 3/5 Series. You could expect the BMW to cost maybe €10k/€20k more, but for that you got a nicer interior, better driving dynamics and (most importantly for me) more power under the bonnet. That was well worth the extra price of admission for many.

But now as we move to EV's, those last two points have eroded, and yet the price gap for the premium brands has..... widened? For some reason? It now makes far less sense to a lot of people, and it's no doubt causing past BMW/Audi/Merc/etc. buyers to jump ship, myself included.

The Tesla Model Y isn't a cheap car at €50/€60k (now less then that actually), people with that kind of budget were very likely past BMW/Audi/Merc buyers, yet those brands don't seem to be really reacting to the fact their past customers are moving away in droves. That's not speculation, it's already happening.

roosterman71

The Tesla Model Y isn't a cheap car at €50/€60k (now less then that actually), people with that kind of budget were very likely past BMW/Audi/Merc buyers, yet those brands don't seem to be really reacting to the fact their past customers are moving away in droves. That's not speculation, it's already happening.

That's not the reality. Out of those 3 brands, only Mercedes has seen a drop in 2023 compared to 2022

Theboinkmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121466819#Comment_121466819

I disagree there's no way I'd buy in Q1 2024 that's too soon to see impact of market - I'd wait until Q4 at the earliest.

SeanaciousD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469980#Comment_121469980

I've been speaking about EV's here this whole time, not ICE cars. We all know that's going to continue along for some time, but the writing is on the wall for EV sales. Looks like those numbers above are either ICE or combined, not EV.

And there's no ignoring the fact that people want to upgrade to EV's now, solar installs have gone through the roof (heh), an EV as an upgrade now makes a lot more sense to people.

What's funny is that stats here clearly show VW were the top dog for the first half of 2023, and yet now they've panic slashed their whole EV range by around €10k. What does that tell you?

Will be interesting to see how this shakes out in the stats next year. But to me at least it's clear buyers are moving away from the premium brands for EV's at least, and that will continue unless they get serious about it.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469040#Comment_121469040

I'm fully EV converted but I saw an arteon in frank Keane last week and it was the nicest car in the showroom by an absolute mile. Even pictures of id7 don't look as well but I'll wait to see one up close

carsfan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121468962#Comment_121468962

This is my favourite thread on boards too. I’m impressed that you can change cars so frequently. Do you not get burned financially doing this?

In the past I changed every couple of years which isn’t the most prudent.

I think I’d be divorced if I changed any more often.

I think this thread died because it’s gotten so difficult to change cars at anything like a reasonable price. New cars have increased so much in price, outstripping income rises coupled with interest rates rising has made a huge difference to affordability so people hold their current cars longer.

carsfan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121469198#Comment_121469198

Conlan’s in Limerick?

They are about the worst on price every time I found. Every car I’ve priced with them in the last few years has been miles away in price from other BMW dealers.

Think they have a big enough local clientele that buy without shopping around to sustain them.

maddness

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121471219#Comment_121471219

I do about 1000kms a week and used to charge every 6-9 months and always lost quite a lot. This year I’ve had a few cars all bought in the north.

carsfan2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121472032#Comment_121472032

Did you make big savings going north or just better selection?

what did you buy?

maddness

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121472168#Comment_121472168

The selection is very limited as you need to buy a northern Irish registered car otherwise you are liable for VAT, import duty and vrt. You can be lucky though. I’ve made on some and lost on others but broken even which is better than loosing a lot on one car in a year. I bought a M340i Touring, a 330e and a M2 Competition and am currently in a 2020 GTI Performance golf.

carsfan2

That’s an impressive list of cars Madness. M340i touring is a car I would have loved to buy but the lure of electric performance got me.

1000km a week in m2 competition would be costly on fuel no doubt.