M50 Speed limit?

Roadhawk

I heard on the radio this morning that the minister of transport apparently said that the reason for traffic on the M50 is from road users traveling too fast and he suggested to lower the speed limit?


Has anyone heard anything about this or have i got this completely wrong?

L1011

Variable speed limits have been proposed; there are specific circumstances where the acceleration and braking cycle of cars trying to reach a 100kmh or similar limit actually causes more congestion than driving at an 80 or 60kmh limit.

dubal

Variable speed limits are proved to work in the UK to speed up roads in times of congestion, it would need a reasonable investment in signage etc

Dubal

LeinsterDub

dubal wrote: »

Variable speed limits are proved to work in the UK to speed up roads in times of congestion, it would need a reasonable investment in signage etc

Dubal

And enforcement

Larbre34

There may be something to the science of it, I've seen variable limits in operation on the M25 in London, to varying degrees of success (bear in mind they are combined with red lights on merge ramps at times)

Personally I think there are far higher priority issues to affect congestion on the M50; awful lane discipline, appalling/late merging and diverging, rubber necking at incidents. If the Gardai want to improve things they should start a campaign of pulling people over for this sort of stuff. The message will begin to filter through.

Roadhawk

Larbre34 wrote: »

There may be something to the science of it, I've seen variable limits in operation on the M25 in London, to varying degrees of success (bear in mind they are combined with red lights on merge ramps at times)

Personally I think there are far higher priority issues to affect congestion on the M50; awful lane discipline, appalling/late merging and diverging, rubber necking at incidents. If the Gardai want to improve things they should start a campaign of pulling people over for this sort of stuff. The message will begin to filter through.

I completely agree. there seems to be a lack of education on the M50. There is no training provided to road users to use the motorway.

Roadhawk

Having said that I don't mind going slower if it means getting there faster.

Roadhawk

100km is already slow enough. I think its the only motorway thats not 120km?

Larbre34

The 100 km/h limit is because it doesn't meet the design standards for 120, lots of different specific reasons.

GM228

Larbre34 wrote: »

The 100 km/h limit is because it doesn't meet the design standards for 120, lots of different specific reasons.

The two main reasons being the width of the lanes. and sight lines I believe.

GM228

L1011

GM228 wrote: »

The two main reasons being the width of the lanes. and sight lines I believe.

GM228

And planning permission requirements for some of the south eastern section (where the lanes have not been narrowed, but was always 60mph/100kmh)

Theboinkmaster

It's due to the short distance between exits. Simple way to improve m50:

Step 1 - remove reversing around a corner in driving test and replace with motorway driving

Step 2 - enforce motorway rules -> any middle lane morons etc. get 3 penalty points & €80 fine.

Job done.

Bogger77

Roadhawk wrote: »

100km is already slow enough. I think its the only motorway thats not 120km?

Last section of the M8, from J18 to end at J19
same reasons as M50, in terms of sight lines.

GM228

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

It's due to the short distance between exits. Simple way to improve m50:

Step 1 - remove reversing around a corner in driving test and replace with motorway driving

Step 2 - enforce motorway rules -> any middle lane morons etc. get 3 penalty points & €80 fine.

Job done.

The distance between exits is not a factor AFAIK? Open to correction though.

GM228

highdef

GM228 wrote: »

The two main reasons being the width of the lanes. and sight lines I believe.

GM228

I could well be mistaken but the M3 between Clonee and Pace appears to have fairly narrow lanes, despite having a 120 kmph limit. This is purely subjective on my part but the lanes seem similar width to the M50. Furthermore the auxiliary lane seems rather narrow, even for a car. Sight lines between Pace Clonee and Pace are excellent with the majority of it being dead straight. Speed limit is 120 kmph - Google streetview image shows the main carriageway lanes being similar to M50 and aux lane being rather narrow - https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4296041,-6.4649596,3a,75y,344.01h,86.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssJQriM7uXzDa3zqGwXxMsA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Roadhawk

That is ridiculous. I use the M50 twice a day going to and from work. I tend to use the middle lane and left lane the most (as these are the ones that move quicker). Everyone seems to pull onto the motorway and head straight for the overtaking lane (fast lane). The overtaking lane seems to come to a stop first which leave the most movement in the middle and left lane.

The amount of road rage is crazy too. I have start using my GoPro as a dash cam as I have had a few close calls from crazy drivers.

highdef

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

It's due to the short distance between exits. .

But before the upgrade, the limit was about 113kmph yet the distance between junctions is virtually identical

Theboinkmaster

GM228 wrote: »

The distance between exits is not a factor AFAIK? Open to correction though.

GM228

Thought NRA lad on newstalk said that, but I could easily be wrong.

Roadhawk

I would say that the speed reduction is down to the face that the road has 3 lanes across (not including the on/off ramp) and when silly drivers are sitting in the overtaking lane it gives them more time to make their turn off.

highdef

Roadhawk wrote: »

I would say that the speed reduction is down to the face that the road has 3 lanes across (not including the on/off ramp) and when silly drivers are sitting in the overtaking lane it gives them more time to make their turn off.

So basically the limit is low to facilitate morons???? Yet morons are not actively dissuaded by the Gardai from being morons on the road!

Roadhawk

highdef wrote: »

So basically the limit is low to facilitate morons???? Yet morons are not actively dissuaded by the Gardai from being morons on the road!

Pretty much. Again that's only my opinion. If the road users were not morons you could definitely increase the speed and have a more efficient motorway.

Pistolpete1

I think the main problem as said before is the people staying in the middle lane or far right lane.

They are called over taking lanes for a reason.

There should be a national campaign of education on how to drive on a motorway for a few months.

Instead of the proposed tolling of the M50 in other locations, install cameras that monitor and automatically fine drivers sitting in the middle lane or far right lane.

At this stage i think people need to learn the hard way......

Government get there extra income, more lives saved on the M50 and hopefully it becomes a more free flowing, accident free motorway.

com1

Roadhawk wrote: »

highdef wrote: »

So basically the limit is low to facilitate morons???? Yet morons are not actively dissuaded by the Gardai from being morons on the road!

Pretty much. Again that's only my opinion. If the road users were not morons you could definitely increase the speed and have a more efficient motorway.

You do realize that the middle lane is also an overtaking lane?

Roadhawk

com1 wrote: »

You do realize that the middle lane is also an overtaking lane?

I sure do. As i mentioned earlier, I usually use the left lane or middle lane. I should have emphasized that i use the middle lane when over taking.

Roadhawk

Pistolpete1 wrote: »

I think the main problem as said before is the people staying in the middle lane or far right lane.

They are called over taking lanes for a reason.

There should be a national campaign of education on how to drive on a motorway for a few months.

Instead of the proposed tolling of the M50 in other locations, install cameras that monitor and automatically fine drivers sitting in the middle lane or far right lane.

At this stage i think people need to learn the hard way......

Government get there extra income, more lives saved on the M50 and hopefully it becomes a more free flowing, accident free motorway.

I agree here. The government would make huge amount of revenue if they policed this.

deathtocaptcha

for all you people wanting to fine people sitting in the middle lane, how would you enforce it beyond putting a bunch of squad cars or unmarked cars looping around the M50?

it just seems like such a waste of resources... if traffic is flowing at a consistent speed, that's all we can hope for on the M50...

bendzi

In my opinion the middle lane is OK specially when there is lots of lorries on the left one. The real nightmare is sleeping honey bunny on the right one causing long queue on this lane.

First Up

deathtocaptcha wrote:

for all you people wanting to fine people sitting in the middle lane, how would you enforce it beyond putting a bunch of squad cars or unmarked cars looping around the M50?

Same as all motorway rules need to be enforced - you police it.

deathtocaptcha wrote:

it just seems like such a waste of resources... if traffic is flowing at a consistent speed, that's all we can hope for on the M50...

Accidents jam up the M50 almost every day. Motorway accidents are largely caused by irresponsible or careless lane changing. Muppets sitting in the middle lane force undertaking or push people into outside lane, increasing the risk of collisions.

First Up

bendzi wrote:

In my opinion the middle lane is OK specially when there is lots of lorry on the left one. The real nightmare is sleeping honey bunny on the right one causing long queue on this lane.

No it isn't unless you are overtaking. Most times on the M50 the driving lane is empty, while people like you clog up the overtaking lane.

endacl

dubal wrote: »

Variable speed limits are proved to work in the UK to speed up roads in times of congestion, it would need a reasonable investment in signage compliance and road sense etc

Dubal

Better.

savagethegoat

bendzi wrote: »

In my opinion the middle lane is OK specially when there is lots of lorries on the left one. The real nightmare is sleeping honey bunny on the right one causing long queue on this lane.

your opinion doesn't come into it, if there is space n the left hand lane, that's where you should be.

GM228

com1 wrote: »

You do realize that the middle lane is also an overtaking lane?

Strictly speaking there is no such thing as an overtaking lane (or a slow lane for that matter).

We have traffic lanes, tram lanes, bus lanes, cycle lanes, acceleration and deceleration lanes, rightmost lanes etc, but no overtaking lanes!

They are unofficially called that (even by official bodies) because of the laws that govern their use.

GM228

bendzi

savagethegoat wrote: »

your opinion doesn't come into it, if there is space n the left hand lane, that's where you should be.

If you are driving faster then the lorries, what lane do you use? Left or middle?

First Up

bendzi wrote:

If you are driving faster then the lorries, what lane do you use? Left or middle?

Its perfectly clear in the rules. You can use the middle lane if there is slower moving traffic in the left lane. Otherwise, keep left.

bendzi

Based on human behavior in the countries where average speed control has been introduced, showed that drivers want to be more careful then the speed check and drive slower then the limit ot the road. So there is little chance that you will get faster to the point!

First Up

bendzi wrote:

Based on human behavior in the countries where average speed control has been introduced, showed that drivers want to be more careful then the speed check and drive slower then the limit ot the road. So there is little chance that you will get faster to the point!

I think it has been conclusively proven that traffic moving at a steady pace moves quicker than stop/go traffic. That is the purpose of average speed controls, not speed reduction for its own sake.

bendzi

First Up wrote: »

I think it has been conclusively proven that traffic moving at a steady pace moves quicker than stop/go traffic. That is the purpose of average speed controls, not speed reduction for its own sake.

Anyway the average speed check is not the solution! Solution is to proactively teach drivers correct behaviors on the motorway.

savagethegoat

bendzi wrote: »

If you are driving faster then the lorries, what lane do you use? Left or middle?

I said it quite clearly in the post you quoted,,,if there is space in the left lane, that's where you should be

_Kaiser_

Everytime the M50 or N7 comes up it descends rapidly into a "I hate middle lane morons" vs "reality on the M50" debate.

Bottom line is that during peak times (which is when the issues actually and only occur) ALL 3 lanes are pretty much fully occupied by traffic during which ALL lanes are (rightly!) used as driving lanes.

Sure, you can certainly weave in and out between trucks and merging/leaving traffic if you wish, but I think you'll find yourself in the middle lane most of the time as well because of the short distances between exits on the most congested spot (exit 7 (N4) and 11 (Tallaght)) - not to mention it's a lot more stressful doing so!

Add to that then the dawdlers who potter along at anywhere up to 20-30 km/h less than the limit when there's no good reason (eg: bad weather/poor visibility) to do so, and the trucks who elephant race each between 2 lanes for several km. Then you have the lane-weavers jumping between 3/4 lanes to get a car length ahead or cutting in front of others despite the gap being too small.

I drive both the M50 and N7 daily and the above are far bigger issues than people sitting in the middle lane. I also don't see what the problem is.. Unless traffic is at a standstill I rarely have a problem and am rarely held up unnecessarily, but then I drive more to the conditions than blind adherence to the "rules" - and that's not me being a rebel, just that I think it's far more important to be aware of the surroundings and adjust accordingly than worrying about what lane to be in.

blackwhite

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Everytime the M50 or N7 comes up it descends rapidly into a "I hate middle lane morons" vs "reality on the M50" debate.

Bottom line is that during peak times (which is when the issues actually and only occur) ALL 3 lanes are pretty much fully occupied by traffic during which ALL lanes are (rightly!) used as driving lanes.

Sure, you can certainly weave in and out between trucks and merging/leaving traffic if you wish, but I think you'll find yourself in the middle lane most of the time as well because of the short distances between exits on the most congested spot (exit 7 (N4) and 11 (Tallaght)) - not to mention it's a lot more stressful doing so!

Add to that then the dawdlers who potter along at anywhere up to 20-30 km/h less than the limit when there's no good reason (eg: bad weather/poor visibility) to do so, and the trucks who elephant race each between 2 lanes for several km. Then you have the lane-weavers jumping between 3/4 lanes to get a car length ahead or cutting in front of others despite the gap being too small.

I drive both the M50 and N7 daily and the above are far bigger issues than people sitting in the middle lane. I also don't see what the problem is.. Unless traffic is at a standstill I rarely have a problem and am rarely held up unnecessarily, but then I drive more to the conditions than blind adherence to the "rules" - and that's not me being a rebel, just that I think it's far more important to be aware of the surroundings and adjust accordingly than worrying about what lane to be in.

I drive both N7 and M50 most days as well, and the problem with middle lane morons are different on each.

On the N7 the left hand lane often has long empty stretches, meaning the numpties in the middle lane are effectively reducing capacity to that of a two lane DC. Volumes haven't (yet) risen to M50 levels for most of it, so the left lane hasn't filled up yet.

On the M50 at rush hour, the middle lane morons don't cause that much trouble when they are actually in the middle lane (like you say, the road is at capacity so all lanes are being used). The problem with them is the immediate dive for the middle lane as soon as they merge into the road, without waiting until they actually need to be there, and then later the sudden two lane swing as they realise they are nearly at their exit.

selous

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

It's due to the short distance between exits. Simple way to improve m50:

Step 1 - remove reversing around a corner in driving test and replace with motorway driving

I always wondered why reversing around a 90* (blind) corner into oncoming traffic was in the driving test,
Do you ever do it after the test?

Motorway test would be a lot more beneficial, straight off the ramp into the middle lane hmmm, or down the filter in lane to the end and mooch in regardless of if there's a car in the driving lane beside it, but was free half way up the lane,

_Kaiser_

blackwhite wrote: »

I drive both N7 and M50 most days as well, and the problem with middle lane morons are different on each.

On the N7 the left hand lane often has long empty stretches, meaning the jump ties in e middle lane are effectively reducing capacity to that of a two lane DC. Volumes haven't (yet) risen to M50 levels for most of it, so the left lane hasn't filled up yet.

On the M50 at rush hour, the middle lane morons don't cause that much trouble when they are actually in the middle lane (like you say, the road is at capacity so all lanes are being used). The problem with them is the immediate dive for the middle lane as soon as they merge into the road, without waiting until they actually need to be there, and then later the sudden two lane swing as they realise they are nearly at their exit.

i agree with you there - not helped by some appalling merge/exit designs... eg: J10 (Ballymount) northbound merges onto the same 50/100m stretch that cars on the mainline are using to get to the N7. Then trying to get onto the N7 is fun as cars try to exit for the LUAS P&R or Newlands Cross.

I find though that you can usually predict the "last second" types by the way that the car starts drifting left/right while they think about it which in turn allows you to react accordingly.

Nichard Dixon

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

i agree with you there - not helped by some appalling merge/exit designs... eg: J10 (Ballymount) northbound merges onto the same 50/100m stretch that cars on the mainline are using to get to the N7. Then trying to get onto the N7 is fun as cars try to exit for the LUAS P&R or Newlands Cross.

I find though that you can usually predict the "last second" types by the way that the car starts drifting left/right while they think about it which in turn allows you to react accordingly.

The Ballymount and N7 exits are too close together, they need to be integrated into one. Every effort should be made to prosecuted those who dive across lanes, perhaps by introducing solid white lines in the vicinity of exits.

micks_address

blackwhite wrote: »

I drive both N7 and M50 most days as well, and the problem with middle lane morons are different on each.

On the N7 the left hand lane often has long empty stretches, meaning the jump ties in e middle lane are effectively reducing capacity to that of a two lane DC. Volumes haven't (yet) risen to M50 levels for most of it, so the left lane hasn't filled up yet.

On the M50 at rush hour, the middle lane morons don't cause that much trouble when they are actually in the middle lane (like you say, the road is at capacity so all lanes are being used). The problem with them is the immediate dive for the middle lane as soon as they merge into the road, without waiting until they actually need to be there, and then later the sudden two lane swing as they realise they are nearly at their exit.

I'm on it twice a day and all lanes are usually full.. If people stuck to the left lane im not sure how it would help.. It can be frustrating when you have traffic doing 40kph in the overtaking lanes.. I've also seen plenty overtake me doing 140 kph while I'm zipping along at 100kph..

A lot worse in my opinion is the late exiting at speed... Nearly every evening someone cuts on front of me exiting to the m1..

People also give our about rubber neckers but it's actually really hard to ignore flashing lights etc on the other side.. Maybe if there was a really high barrier between the opposing directions might help

The lucan entrance south bound is very dangerous.. Most mornings I see close calls there with either cars entering the motorway and crossing lanes to the right or vehicles moving across left to get ready for exiting at Red cow..

No easy answers to it.. Maybe fixed camera's at the entrances and exits that were enforced would help

Victor

highdef wrote: »

So basically the limit is low to facilitate morons????

Realise that nearly half the population has below average intelligence. When you have 100,000+ using the road every day, there is scope for spectacularly sub-par behaviour.

Yet morons are not actively dissuaded by the Gardai from being morons on the road!

Active policing on busy motorways is not a safe or easy activity.

blackvalley

Isn’t it strange that only really good drivers post on forums such as this? Full of comments about what “ other drivers “ do on the roads and how “ people “ need to learn the rules of the road.
Come to think of it after forty years of driving I have never had a conversation with a bad driver. My friends, work colleagues, family regularly complain about the “other “drivers doing dangerous and stupid things but they themselves have never made a mistake.
Leads me to wonder who the heck all the bad drivers out there are. Maybe I am just lucky that ALL MY acquaintances are really good drivers.:

First Up

Victor wrote:

Active policing on busy motorways is not a safe or easy activity.

Overhead cameras snapping those hogging the middle lane while the inside lane is empty would be safe, easy and profitable.

First Up

bendzi wrote:

Anyway the average speed check is not the solution! Solution is to proactively teach drivers correct behaviors on the motorway.

And enforce the laws with those who think they know better.

First Up

_Kaiser_ wrote:

I drive both the M50 and N7 daily and the above are far bigger issues than people sitting in the middle lane. I also don't see what the problem is.. Unless traffic is at a standstill I rarely have a problem and am rarely held up unnecessarily, but then I drive more to the conditions than blind adherence to the "rules" - and that's not me being a rebel, just that I think it's far more important to be aware of the surroundings and adjust accordingly than worrying about what lane to be in.

If you don't see what the problem is, your entitlement to a driving licence is questionable. And if you don't care what lane you are in, you are exactly the sort of gobdaw that has our roads as chaotic as they are.

_Kaiser_

First Up wrote: »

If you don't see what the problem is, your entitlement to a driving licence is questionable. And if you don't care what lane you are in, you are exactly the sort of gobdaw that has our roads as chaotic as they are.

If you say so... :rolleyes:

Me I'll continue to make steady progress at an appropriate speed, neither being held up nor holding others up while leaving all the dawdlers, lane-weavers and "I'm doing it right" types behind

The only types worse than the ones above are those who think it's their "duty" to teach/enforce the rules on others. Just drive on, pay attention to your own driving and your surrounding, while not causing any unnecessary problems for others and things would be much smoother!

Victor

Folks, civility is needed.

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