BullPup Rifles

HW100S

Hello All

I recently contacted a dealer in Ireland about getting a Bullpup Air Rifle.

He informed me that Bullpup's are illegal in Ireland.

I can't find information to confirm this. I can only find information on Barrel lengths and this particular Air Rifle has a Barrel length of 19 inches.

Anybody anything to share on this?

Thanks in Advance.

nastros

At a minimum as far as I am aware it falls under the restricted category.

Sparks

They're not illegal, but they are restricted. And with a barrel length of 19 inches, it'd be a restricted rifle even if it wasn't a bullpup. But still legal; you just apply to the chief super instead of the super.

HW100S

Sparks wrote: »

They're not illegal, but they are restricted. And with a barrel length of 19 inches, it'd be a restricted rifle even if it wasn't a bullpup. But still legal; you just apply to the chief super instead of the super.

Thanks for the reply.
please excuse my ignorance but I dont understand why it would be restricted at 19inches?

Are many rifle barrels not around 20inches?

Thank you.

Sparks

Ever have one of those mornings when you get nothing right?

You're correct, the 19 inch barrel won't impact on restricted status at all. There is an issue with it, but it's a different one we've spoken about in here often before now - if the rifle barrel length is under 19.68 inches (it's 50cm in the legislation), then you're in somewhat of a gray area legally with respect to section 12A of the firearms act. You definitely cannot cut a rifle barrel down below that length (unless you're an RFD who immediately rebuilds it back up past that point), that's right out. But for rifles that come from the factory with barrels under 50cm and which are licenced as such, there's a question of whether or not your licence counts as the legal authority required by section 12A to have a barrel that short. Nobody's tested it in court yet and nobody ever wants to be the first one to the court for things like that (but to be honest, I think they'd win the case - an awful lot of rifles have shorter barrels than that; but it'd be better handled by the FCP by changing the law to make it clear what "legal authority" means in the act).

lefthooker

It's also restricted cos your magazine/chamber is behind your trigger.

Cass

Classic example in Ireland is the Buckmark rifle. While it's basically the Buckmark pistol with a longer barrel and permanently fixed stock, because the magazine loads into the grip like the pistol and because this is behind the trigger it's a restricted firearm regardless of the magazine capacity.

Normally you'd have to go over 10 rounds capacity in a semi auto .22lr rifle for it to be restricted. In the Buckmark because the mag loads behind the trigger it's classified as a bullpup and hence restricted.

If you want to "slap" your dealer with the law then look to SI 21/2008:

“bullpup rifles” means rifles with a magazine located behind the trigger;

Sparks

lefthooker wrote: »

It's also restricted cos your magazine/chamber is behind your trigger.

Um. That's kindof the legal definition of bullpup here
The problem is that the law went off and wrote legal definitions for a bunch of terms that already existed in the shooting world with long-standing technical definitions.... and the legal definitions don't *quite* match up (and are right out of whack in some cases)

HW100S

Sparks wrote: »

Um. That's kindof the legal definition of bullpup here
The problem is that the law went off and wrote legal definitions for a bunch of terms that already existed in the shooting world with long-standing technical definitions.... and the legal definitions don't *quite* match up (and are right out of whack in some cases)

Thank you all for the great information. Sounds like it wouldn't be worth the effort - dealer said he won't get it anyway!

This raises another question. I was considering putting my current air rifle into an aftermarket bullpup stock that is readily available to buy. It comes with a new trigger that attaches to the existing trigger via a rod. This would create the above mentioned scenario of trigger forward of magazine.

Would this now be considered a restricted firearm?

Thanks in advance.

HW100S

Sparks wrote: »

Ever have one of those mornings when you get nothing right?

You're correct, the 19 inch barrel won't impact on restricted status at all. There is an issue with it, but it's a different one we've spoken about in here often before now - if the rifle barrel length is under 19.68 inches (it's 50cm in the legislation), then you're in somewhat of a gray area legally with respect to section 12A of the firearms act.

Sorry, I incorrectly quoted the barrel lenght at 19inches. Its actually 19.7inches (500mm) if that matters?

Cass

HW100S wrote: »

Would this now be considered a restricted firearm?

Yup.

In the same way as a standard Ruger 10/22 is an unrestricted rifle until you load a 25 round magazine into it at which point it now becomes a restricted firearm. Same as putting 6 or more rounds into a .22lr pistol. It goes from unrestricted to restricted.

By changing the design of the rifle from it's current design to Bullpup changes it from unrestricted to restricted. The law says it's the licensee's responsibility to know what constitutes a restricted and unrestricted firearm and to apply for or have the required license as appropriate. So doing something like that, and i'm not for a minute suggesting you would, and thinking no one will notice or that ignorance will get you out of any trouble would be a mistake.

HW100S

Cass wrote: »

Yup.

So doing something like that, and i'm not for a minute suggesting you would, and thinking no one will notice or that ignorance will get you out of any trouble would be a mistake.

Well, I was seriously considering it because I was genuinely unaware about bullpup restrictions until this morning.
Just as well I hadn't parted with my hard earned cash......:eek:

I think this thread can be wrapped up now.

Thanks again for all this replies.

Sandy22

I presume this rifle does have a magazine(?)

I only ask as a lot of air rifles don't, and since a bullpup is defined in Irish law with reference to the magazine, a rifle without a magazine cannot be a bullpup, regardless of how it is configured otherwise.

Cass

lefthooker wrote: »

It's also restricted cos your magazine/chamber is behind your trigger.

The thing is Irish law does not mention the chamber or action. IOW the very item that defines what a bullpup is in every other country. It, as mentioned above, only refers to the magazine.

Sandy22 wrote: »

......... and since a bullpup is defined in Irish law with reference to the magazine, ............

This brings us onto similar issues such as the revolver pistol issue. The law says a magazine, but a revolver uses a cylinder. We know what the difference is and no doubt so do the authorities, but the law does not say it so it causes these kind of ridiculous issues that should never be a problem. So with reference to this:

.......... a rifle without a magazine cannot be a bullpup,..........

May very well be true in the sense of the meaning of it, but from a legal stance i'd hate to be the test case.

HW100S

Sandy22 wrote: »

I presume this rifle does have a magazine(?)

I only ask as a lot of air rifles don't, and since a bullpup is defined in Irish law with reference to the magazine, a rifle without a magazine cannot be a bullpup, regardless of how it is configured otherwise.

Sorry, I should have said at the start what the rifle is.

FX Wildcat in 0.22

http://www.fxairguns.com/rifle/the-wildcat/

It has an 8 shot magazine.

Cass

Mag behind the trigger and it having a mag means its bullpup by Irish law.

HW100S

Cass wrote: »

Mag behind the trigger and it having a mag means its bullpup by Irish law.

Ok, thanks. Is it a big deal to get a restricted certificate.
This is just an air rifle after all but its probably treated no differently?

Cass

Restricted just means it goes to the Chief Super and you must explain why that type of firearm is the only one that will fulfill your needs over a similar firearm that is unrestricted.

I've gotten two in as many months so of course they can be gotten. Too many believe restricted means cannot be gotten.

HW100S

Cass wrote: »

Restricted just means it goes to the Chief Super and you must explain why that type of firearm is the only one that will fulfill your needs over a similar firearm that is unrestricted.

I've gotten two in as many months so of course they can be gotten. Too many believe restricted means cannot be gotten.

That sounds promising. So you think my chances of getting it would be good?
Obviously you don't know the super, nor do I for that matter.....:)

Cass

Just to be clear its the Chief Super, but yeah if it's what you want and you can show its needed over an unrestricted then go for it.

HW100S

Cass wrote: »

Just to be clear its the Chief Super, but yeah if it's what you want and you can show its needed over an unrestricted then go for it.

Great, thanks for your help. I'll check it out.