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Irish travellers a separate ethnic group

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    #62
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    I don't really see the issue - what difference does it make whether they are or aren't a separate ethnic group (I personally think they aren't but I don't really care if they are or not) The fact is they live in the state of Ireland and should be treated as any other person living here - with all the same rights and all the same responsibilities. Makes no difference if you're an irish man, a "traveller" or a martian - you're here, here's the rules they apply to everyone equally.

    That's pretty much the same attitude as myself. As long as they respect the laws of the land and contribute to legislating laws and voting in referendums and elections than their should be no problem. A couple more TD's from traveller backgrounds from areas of the country in which travellers live in would do a lot to bring them into mainstream society.


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    #63
    Dubl07
    Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭Dubl07


    Nodin wrote: »
    Deemed by the government.

    Are you going to retract your claim "As soon as you crave out separate groups and give them extra special rights what you are actually doing is taking rights from another group" or back it up anytime soon?

    They don't have special needs. They have specific wants, many of which are shared by society at large.

    People would like space around their homes, family nearby and services laid on. Most youngsters want a pony. Lots of young fellas want a car and land to drive around. Many's the kid who wants a fancy playhouse. Lots of kids see a dog they like the look of but that their parents can't afford to buy or look after. Show me anyone who actively enjoys paying for waste disposal and/or putting out the bins. Lots of adults would like to be full-time parents instead of working to pay rent. Many teens want to get the leg over and spend the day in bed. Contraception's pie in the sky when you're fourteen or so. Your mammy will look after the little oopsies or you'll get a new house right beside her.

    Point is, the rest of society knows that you can't always get what you want and even when you do there are consequences and responsibilities arising from your actions. Clean up, pay up, educate yourself and your kids, behave responsibly and obey the law or lobby to change the laws.


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    #64
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    Deemed by the government.

    That is a cop out in fairness. The government are lobbied by various groups to acquiesce to demands and wants.
    Would you say that religious schools for example have different 'needs' therefore need more funding than secular schools? How about Muslims schools where they want to have gender separated PE classes, girls having PE lessons with a women only PE and out of sight of any male person, no physical contact with the opposite sex even in school plays.... should the government give in to those demands and provide public funding to a school like that?
    Some how I think you will have a different opinion on those 'needs'.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Are you going to retract your claim "As soon as you crave out separate groups and give them extra special rights what you are actually doing is taking rights from another group" or back it up anytime soon?

    Retrac? No, I have already answered it even though you seem to like repeating the question as if I have not.


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    #65
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »

    Retrac? No, I have already answered it even though you seem to like repeating the question as if I have not.

    You have? What post no, might I ask?


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    #66
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Nodin wrote: »
    You have? What post no, might I ask?

    Hasn't it already been said that by providing extra room and priority housing to travellers you are reducing the room available for non-traveller families and increasing their wait times?


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    #67
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    At the moment I do not consider the Travelling Community to be a separate ethnic minority in Ireland. They like the rest of us are Irish.

    I am really interested why we as Irish Citizens are compelled to fund a way of life that condemns its children to less education, a high chance of unemployment, the danger of being dragged into crime and the subsequent incarceration and lower lifespans.

    We are told that it is to protect and to acknowledge their culture. I have looked to see what this mythical culture is? IMHO the return does not warrant the costs both to the general population of Ireland and to the members of the travelling community.

    If this community want to practice their way of life let them do it in a way that is self sustaining. If they can't and if they want to benefit from society they will have to change their way of life. Everyones way of life has changed immeasurably over the last 100 years. What was considered normal back then is no longer now.

    Why should one group get special treatment for accommodation services when using the same resources on normal accommodation services will house 4 times as many families especially during a housing crisis.


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    #68
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Nodin wrote: »
    Deemed by the government.

    Are you going to retract your claim "As soon as you crave out separate groups and give them extra special rights what you are actually doing is taking rights from another group" or back it up anytime soon?

    I'm not sure that giving cultural protection to travellers will take rights away from someone else but it will possibly create an uneven playing field that will just breed further resentment.

    Look at the UK. Like here they have a rule that children cannot be out of school during term time without good reason. Parents in breech of this are fined and can face jail. It's a law that exists to protect children and their right to an education. The exemption to that rule is the traveling community, ironically one group who need education more than most. They have an exemption because they travel, it's using an aspect of their culture to circumvent regulation. I don't know if that exemption applies here or not but you can see how culture may be used in a negative way.


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    #69
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    gandalf wrote: »
    We are told that it is to protect and to acknowledge their culture. I have looked to see what this mythical culture is? .

    I'm damned if I can see what their "culture" is either. They want to move from place to place - well big swinging mickeys, don't we all. Economic necessity plus the practicalities of raising kids to be literate, employable adults able function within society generally tempers that nomadic streak.
    It's a hard lesson to learn but an important one, that we all have to do what we "have" to do, not what we would like to.
    Travellers as a group don't "need" special ethnic status, what they do need is to cop the fúck on and live life as the modern world demands - like the rest of us. Even if they do get this special status - what does it change - nothing whatsoever!


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    #70
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    I'm damned if I can see what their "culture" is either. They want to move from place to place - well big swinging mickeys, don't we all. Economic necessity plus the practicalities of raising kids to be literate, employable adults able function within society generally tempers that nomadic streak.
    It's a hard lesson to learn but an important one, that we all have to do what we "have" to do, not what we would like to.
    Travellers as a group don't "need" special ethnic status, what they do need is to cop the fúck on and live life as the modern world demands - like the rest of us. Even if they do get this special status - what does it change - nothing whatsoever!

    TBH I am more than willing to keep an open mind and look at the positives that Traveller Culture brings to general Irish society.

    To date in this thread and in the ones that existed in AH before they were locked down no one has or was able to provide any substantial ones.


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    #71
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Hasn't it already been said that by providing extra room and priority housing to travellers you are reducing the room available for non-traveller families and increasing their wait times?

    The above has been claimed but not in anyway proven. You could add the same thing about making various places more accessible for the disabled, but somehow I doubt that would come up.

    Travellers weren't actually referenced in the original post either - it was made as a general statement.


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    #72
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    eviltwin wrote: »

    Look at the UK. Like here they have a rule that children cannot be out of school during term time without good reason. Parents in breech of this are fined and can face jail. It's a law that exists to protect children and their right to an education. The exemption to that rule is the traveling community, ironically one group who need education more than most. They have an exemption because they travel, it's using an aspect of their culture to circumvent regulation. I don't know if that exemption applies here or not but you can see how culture may be used in a negative way.


    Good point. Many give out yarns about legal religious discrimination in providing school places to non baptised children or the veto a board of management may have in hiring a homosexual teacher. Its a cultural hangover from the past. Yet, should we really be moving on from this to a society that gives leave to parents to not educate their children, to give them a chance in life with some skills that can get them good employment?

    No one here who has argued that giving travellers ethnic status is a 'good thing' has even bothered to give us any opinion on the education standards and lack of of traveler children and remedies to solve it in a fair and fiscally equitable manner. This is actually the more pertinent issue.

    Traveller groups should be hitting this point home hard to other travellers rather then wasting time with this nonsense ethnic status issue. Not many of us in Ireland will get behind that but everyone can get behind education for those that need it most. Travellers need to value education as much as the rest of society other wise, they will always behind the bell-curve.


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    #73
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Nodin wrote: »
    The above has been claimed but not in anyway proven.

    Do you genuinely believe it is not true?


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    #74
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    gandalf wrote: »
    TBH I am more than willing to keep an open mind and look at the positives that Traveller Culture brings to general Irish society.

    To date in this thread and in the ones that existed in AH before they were locked down no one has or was able to provide any substantial ones.

    Couldn't agree more. My mind is open. I actually work with a settled traveller, he's a very nice bloke, smart, friendly, never missing or late, he's actually a model employee to be perfectly honest. But I can not for the life of me notice one single ethnic or cultural difference between him and me.


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    #75
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,714 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Nodin wrote: »
    Deemed by the government.

    Are you going to retract your claim "As soon as you crave out separate groups and give them extra special rights what you are actually doing is taking rights from another group" or back it up anytime soon?

    It has been proven over and over in the thread, that by forcing local authorities to comply with specific housing for 1 extended family (generally in the cost of millions) where many other families could be housed in generic style social housing at more than likely half the cost you are in fact taking the resources away from others, ala the right to a roof over your head.

    You refuse to acknowledge this over and over in the thread, in fact there was some very fine points on the last page of this thread. Based on your responses you circumnavigate much of the factual information to hand pick points you take issue with.

    Its very hard to debate with anyone who wont concede to evidence, Such as that the cost of supplying 'very' specific accomodation to this group of people removes vast swathes of finance for the rest of people on the housing list.

    Why do you specifically think that is ok ?


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    #76
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Do you genuinely believe it is not true?


    I don't actually believe it, tbh. I've had things sworn to me as true and genuinely held to be so that turned out as false, so I tend towards scepticism these days.


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    #77
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    listermint wrote: »
    It has been proven over and over in the thread, that by forcing local authorities to comply with specific housing for 1 extended family (generally in the cost of millions) where many other families could be housed in generic style social housing at more than likely half the cost you are in fact taking the resources away from others, ala the right to a roof over your head.

    No, it has been "claimed" which is rather different. All I see here is a great deal of anger towards travellers and no back up for the claim "As soon as you crave out separate groups and give them extra special rights what you are actually doing is taking rights from another group".

    Personally I suspect that where the above statement made in relation to a minority other than travellers, it would be torn into by the majority.


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    #78
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Nodin wrote: »
    I don't actually believe it, tbh. I've had things sworn to me as true and genuinely held to be so that turned out as false, so I tend towards scepticism these days.

    Just use logic then. Having to accomodate a large mobile home would logically require a larger area for the property. And having to house multiple families in the same estate would logically force other who were due a home to have to wait longer because the property they should have gotten has instead been used to accommodate a family living close to each other..


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    #79
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Just use logic then. Having to accomodate a large mobile home would logically require a larger area for the property. And having to house multiple families in the same estate would logically force other who were due a home to have to wait longer because the property they should have gotten has instead been used to accommodate a family living close to each other..


    So you say (and I don't doubt that you believe it). However I'd like to see a report with side by side comparisons and actual costs.


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    #80
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,714 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Nodin wrote: »
    So you say (and I don't doubt that you believe it). However I'd like to see a report with side by side comparisons and actual costs.

    I point you to page 21 and onwards

    http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Housing/FileDownLoad,37993,en.pdf

    So praytell how is it not cheaper for us to home what would be considered run of the mill families in run of the mill typical housing. Than buy larger plots of land for to accommodate fewer 'bays' of housing and on top of that deal with internal family feuds not to mention the practice of burning down or out homes when there is a death in the family

    Internal tensions/compatibility issues between Traveller families were identified by 16 (50%) of local authorities as the most frequently occurring reason for voids/for Travellers leaving Traveller specific accommodation
    Deaths within Traveller families (including suicides on sites and schemes24).
    ‘There are many different customs and rituals surrounding the experience of death in the
    Traveller community. Traditionally when someone died, the home and belongings were burnt.
    This custom of burning is not as common as it was’25. Notwithstanding Traveller families may
    want to sell a caravan and/or indeed move to another location/site, because they are
    traumatised and grieving and their current location brings back too many painful memories.


    Read the study.


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    #81
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    listermint wrote: »
    I point you to page 21 and onwards
    ...............

    There is no mention of costs from page 21 and onwards. Earlier on though, it did give a statistic of around 16% for travellers actually living in halting sites, which, given the size of the traveller population is minimal.

    There is no mention of costs, yet again.
    listermint wrote:
    not to mention the practice of burning down or out homes when there is a death
    in the family

    A very small percentage mention that as a reason for moving.

    Not sure what point you're trying to make with the rest. None of it relates to the point re "rights".


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    #82
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,714 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Nodin wrote: »
    There is no mention of costs from page 21 and onwards. Earlier on though, it did give a statistic of around 16% for travellers actually living in halting sites, which, given the size of the traveller population is minimal.

    There is no mention of costs, yet again.



    A very small percentage mention that as a reason for moving.

    Not sure what point you're trying to make with the rest. None of it relates to the point re "rights".


    So if they cant live on sites due to conflicts with each other, requiring that only some and certain families are accommodate in some and certain regions. You dont believe that levels a direct and clear difference in cost to equivalent cheaper social housing that may stand in place for plus 60 years ?

    really ?


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    #83
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    listermint wrote: »
    So if they cant live on sites due to conflicts with each other, requiring that only some and certain families are accommodate in some and certain regions. You dont believe that levels a direct and clear difference in cost to equivalent cheaper social housing that may stand in place for plus 60 years ?

    But if a family moves, then the accommodation hardly disappears into the ether.


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    #84
    Dubl07
    Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭Dubl07


    Nodin wrote: »
    But if a family moves, then the accommodation hardly disappears into the ether.

    It does if it's uninhabitable or burnt to the ground.


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    #85
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Dubl07 wrote: »
    It does if it's uninhabitable or burnt to the ground.

    Presumptions, assumptions and stereotypes don't really make for a solid case.


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    #86
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,129 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Nodin wrote: »
    Presumptions, assumptions and stereotypes don't really make for a solid case.

    You are right Nodin, they really don't.


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