Nice to see this amount of Wind generation.

One thing I notice is that the coal generation mix always stays around 20%, the more wind that comes on line the more the gas is reduced but not the coal.

AngryHippie

Coal provides the base load, gas runs the peakers.
Very hard to quench a coal fired turbine.

newacc2015

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Coal provides the base load, gas runs the peakers.
Very hard to quench a coal fired turbine.

Coal is probably cheaper than gas at the moment. There is a glut of coal, as Americans have been switching to gas and selling their excess coal abroad

I'd rather just pay for the Gas and eliminate coal altogether. We don't need it. They should be made eliminate coal.

Macha

That's exactly it - cheap coal imports from the US mean coal beats gas on the wholesale market. So when wind comes in and undercuts all of them, gas is the first to drop off the system.

Added to that, the EU emissions trading system which is supposed to put a price on carbon high enough to prevent this sort of thing from happening, isn't doing very well at the moment.

newacc2015

Macha wrote: »

That's exactly it - cheap coal imports from the US mean coal beats gas on the wholesale market. So when wind comes in and undercuts all of them, gas is the first to drop off the system.

Added to that, the EU emissions trading system which is supposed to put a price on carbon high enough to prevent this sort of thing from happening, isn't doing very well at the moment.

Germany is staying mute on the fact, they are mining coal massively again. The only news article I have seen it on is the NYTimes. They are literally demolishing towns to open new pit mines. I doubt Germany will be lobbying for emission tax increases which will make electricity more expensive. Especially since German Electricity is already super expensive and will be worsened with nuclear power closures.

`+ the car companies in the E.U are lobbying regulators to allow for emissions levels for euro 6 to be higher than the current euro 5, imagine this ?

SeanW

Deleted User wrote: »

One thing I notice is that the coal generation mix always stays around 20%, the more wind that comes on line the more the gas is reduced but not the coal.

Simple. Coal cannot be ramped up and down quickly. Wind turbines, solar panels etc operate totally without control - they are literally as reliable the weather - so gas is the only fuel that can accompany renewables.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd rather just pay for the Gas and eliminate coal altogether. We don't need it. They should be made eliminate coal.

There's just one problem with that. This is pretty much shilling for these guys.

Владимир Путин любит вас. Not really a good idea with the Russian Bear on the warpath. The other problem is that gas is very flexible (it can be used for electricity, transport, home heating and cooking, and is also a feedstock in certain chemical processes). So you have an opportunity cost. Waste gas in stationary power plants today (when you could use something like coal or uranium for the same purpose, the latter two having fewer oppotunity costs), your children and grandchildren won't be able to use that gas to heat their homes, because this generation wasted it instead of saving it.

Deleted User wrote: »

`+ the car companies in the E.U are lobbying regulators to allow for emissions levels for euro 6 to be higher than the current euro 5, imagine this ?

Maybe because the current standards increase dramatically the cost of running car (my car would probably cost twice as much to run if it were post Millenial) and as the VW scandal showed, even by loading up cars with €3000 DPFs that fail regularly, the standards are essentially unattainable.

There's also the little problem of Anthropogenic Climate Change, which we're supposed to believe is the greatest threat facing mankind in history, yet our boneheaded regulators, politicians and even more boneheaded electorates have no issue mandating that cars be 10-25% less fuel efficient than they should be (adding advanced pollution control devices also makes the whole system massively less fuel efficient), and also shutting down nuclear power plants to replace them with Mother Russia's gas and coal. And most of the people advocating this call themselves environmentalists! You couldn't make it up.

Edited to clarify: I am not disputing Antrophogenic Climate Change here. Rather, I am disputing the wisdom of making cars 1/10 to 1/4 less fuel efficient, or of closing nuclear plants (remember, France has 90%+ non-fossil elecrtricity), in the context of the expressed need for credible Anti-ACC policy.

Macha

newacc2015 wrote: »

Macha wrote: »

That's exactly it - cheap coal imports from the US mean coal beats gas on the wholesale market. So when wind comes in and undercuts all of them, gas is the first to drop off the system.

Added to that, the EU emissions trading system which is supposed to put a price on carbon high enough to prevent this sort of thing from happening, isn't doing very well at the moment.

Germany is staying mute on the fact, they are mining coal massively again. The only news article I have seen it on is the NYTimes. They are literally demolishing towns to open new pit mines. I doubt Germany will be lobbying for emission tax increases which will make electricity more expensive. Especially since German Electricity is already super expensive and will be worsened with nuclear power closures.

Are you talking about the Vattenfall mines that they're trying to sell?

It's not a carbon tax, it's a cap and trade system. Too many credits have caused oversupply and a very low price. If you check the position of the German government, it backs reform of the ETS that would bring about increases in the carbon price so you're wrong on that front.

I wonder why Germany always comes up in this forum...? Bit random except I find the same myths repeated all the time .

Macha

[mod] SeanW: keep your climate scepticism for the dedicated thread, as per forum rules. [/mod]

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all

34% generated by wind at this time today,

Imagine we had Solar PV ? could help to greatly increase the peak supply during the day and wind take over at night.

But what would all the Gas stations do if we didn't need them as much ?

Markcheese

Deleted User wrote:

Imagine we had Solar PV ? could help to greatly increase the peak supply during the day and wind take over at night.

Deleted User wrote:

But what would all the Gas stations do if we didn't need them as much ?

Yeah . But wind doesnt just blow during the night time does it , and you still need something flexible for when the wind's not blowing . Moneypoint's helpful as well to not have all our eggs in one basket so to speak .

Sure the petrol stations claim they make no money from fuel anyway . Drive in "corner shops" with a few fast charge points for good measure.

Markcheese

Markcheese wrote: »

Yeah . But wind doesnt just blow during the night time does it , and you still need something flexible for when the wind's not blowing . Moneypoint's helpful as well to not have all our eggs in one basket so to speak .

Sure the petrol stations claim they make no money from fuel anyway . Drive in "corner shops" with a few fast charge points for good measure.

The wind does blow at night depending on conditions, recent weeks saw high pressure so wind generation was very low.

We do need to sort our storage problem but I don't think we should ignore Solar PV which is much cheaper than wind to install. You then get the best of both worlds and you can still have the Gas for backup.

ted1

Macha wrote: »

That's exactly it - cheap coal imports from the US mean coal beats gas on the wholesale market. So when wind comes in and undercuts all of them, gas is the first to drop off the system.

Added to that, the EU emissions trading system which is supposed to put a price on carbon high enough to prevent this sort of thing from happening, isn't doing very well at the moment.

Our coal comes mainly from Columbia

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all

34% generated by wind at this time today,

Imagine we had Solar PV ? could help to greatly increase the peak supply during the day and wind take over at night.

But what would all the Gas stations do if we didn't need them as much ?

The SNSP Limit has been increased to 55%

The figure of 34% is totally irrelevant you need to look at MWH and not MW. Earlier in the week we only had wind proving 1% of installed capacity. So out of the 2GW installed we were only generating 20MW.
So taking a price of 1million/MW we had 1.998billion euro of infrastructure sitting doing nothing

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

The SNSP Limit has been increased to 55%

The figure of 34% is totally irrelevant you need to look at MWH and not MW. Earlier in the week we only had wind proving 1% of installed capacity. So out of the 2GW installed we were only generating 20MW.
So taking a price of 1million/MW we had 1.998billion euro of infrastructure sitting doing nothing

Yes it's the MWh or GWH that't important , however, on average we have a lot of usable wind over Ireland.

We also need a proper balance, when the wind doesn't blow the solar can still generate for peak times during the day.

Solar does work and it's much cheaper than wind. I believe there are some large scale projects to start in 2016 ?

robp

Macha wrote: »

I wonder why Germany always comes up in this forum...? Bit random except I find the same myths repeated all the time .

Its the most populous country in western Europe so it should. It also has the unenviable position of expensive electricity in an otherwise very competitive economy so certainly lessons to be learnt.

Macha

ted1 wrote: »

Macha wrote: »

That's exactly it - cheap coal imports from the US mean coal beats gas on the wholesale market. So when wind comes in and undercuts all of them, gas is the first to drop off the system.

Added to that, the EU emissions trading system which is supposed to put a price on carbon high enough to prevent this sort of thing from happening, isn't doing very well at the moment.

Our coal comes mainly from Columbia

I was speaking more in a European sense but any increase in cheap coal on the market will lower all prices, including I imagine Colombian coal.

And the ETS point would be valid for any coal, including Colombian.

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all

46% of energy coming from wind at this time, just a fraction more than Gas and Coal combined.

This is nice to see and with solar PV could be much higher % from renewable.

fclauson

ted1 wrote: »

So taking a price of 1million/MW we had 1.998billion euro of infrastructure sitting doing nothing

its nearer €2M so thats ~ €4B of idle infrastructure which has destroyed our country side in places, forced people from their homes due to noise impact and divided communities into those who make money out of wind and those who don't, added to the PSO levy forcing more people in to Fuel Poverty,

but most people still think wind is the only game in town for renewables due to the available subsidies.

Wind is actually an "imported" energy source if you look at where the profits for these wind farms go - some 75% plus are owned outside of Ireland so we pay externally for the benefit of having wind and the revenue is "exported" to pay for it

The comments on solar on this thread are reasonable but they do nothing to when the peak load is on the system (evening time in the winter) - they do make sense at a local level (in home) if smart devices can be programmed to use spare energy e.g. our dishwasher and washing machines are kicked off when there is excess supply from our 4kwp system thus saving us 18c per unit plus having zero transmission losses

Storage is an option but we need to be smarter about this - why do 80% of those who heat their water by electric wait until after 11pm to do so - because of the pricing structure - true fully flexible short time sliced smart meters could do a lot to balancing the load and "storing" energy at minimum costs.

fclauson

Deleted User wrote: »

This is nice to see and with solar PV could be much higher % from renewable.

PV is pants today - our system is producing 10w at the moment - and the house is getting zero solar gain

fclauson

fclauson wrote: »

PV is pants today - our system is producing 10w at the moment - and the house is getting zero solar gain

10 watts out of what installed ? it's what you generate a year is what matters in total.

8 Kwp would with a feed in tariff allow me to power my house and drive the Leaf based on the information for our latitude.

My partner's parents have 14 kwp in Germany and it produces enough more electricity than they need to run the storage heaters and power the house, they export all the excess in Summer. It works , even in Ireland.

The more electric cars come on to the grid the more storage the Grid has for free, or with a smart grid they can use some of the energy in your battery and pay you.

We desperately need a Feed in tariff in Ireland along with a grant. This way we can reduce our reliance on foreign energy companies.

Germany has 3 phase to homes though which allow for far greater amounts of electricity to be sent to the grid compared to the 5 kwp in Ireland. Our grid needs serious upgrading.

fclauson

fclauson wrote: »

its nearer €2M so thats ~ €4B of idle infrastructure which has destroyed our country side in places, forced people from their homes due to noise impact and divided communities into those who make money out of wind and those who don't, added to the PSO levy forcing more people in to Fuel Poverty,

but most people still think wind is the only game in town for renewables due to the available subsidies.

Wind is actually an "imported" energy source if you look at where the profits for these wind farms go - some 75% plus are owned outside of Ireland so we pay externally for the benefit of having wind and the revenue is "exported" to pay for it

The comments on solar on this thread are reasonable but they do nothing to when the peak load is on the system (evening time in the winter) - they do make sense at a local level (in home) if smart devices can be programmed to use spare energy e.g. our dishwasher and washing machines are kicked off when there is excess supply from our 4kwp system thus saving us 18c per unit plus having zero transmission losses

Storage is an option but we need to be smarter about this - why do 80% of those who heat their water by electric wait until after 11pm to do so - because of the pricing structure - true fully flexible short time sliced smart meters could do a lot to balancing the load and "storing" energy at minimum costs.

Pay foreign companies for fossil fuels or pay foreign companies to harness our wind and charge us, I think I prefer to pay for wind.

We promised cheaper bills at the start of all these wind turbine installations but it hasn't happened and this I am against.

fclauson

Deleted User wrote: »

Pay foreign companies for fossil fuels or pay foreign companies to harness our wind and charge us, I think I prefer to pay for wind.

We promised cheaper bills at the start of all these wind turbine installations but it hasn't happened and this I am against.

At it won't because you now have to pay for two energy sources - wind and backup.

Wind costs €80/Mwh to purchase under the Irish subsidy scheme - but if you look at (www.sem-o.com) other sources can be purchased for around €35 - and wind (or rather renewable) must be used first if available. So if I spin up my gas plant and then more wind is available than predicted my plant wastes fuel and costs money on top of the €80 I am paying for wind.

PSO is now having such an impact on fuel bills that SVP is very concerned
https://www.svp.ie/getattachment/a145c1a9-4fbb-400d-b83f-2c6ee8d94c80/SVP-Submission-to-the-Dept-of-Communications,-Ener.aspx

fclauson

ted1 wrote: »

The SNSP Limit has been increased to 55%

has this been confirmed - 50% has been around for a long time

(SNSP = Systems non symmetric penetration) i.e. stuff which draws its frequency from the grid rather than provides it too the grid - anything inverter driven

Wind now at 48.6 % generation and coal down to 15 %

49.3% wind now !

737max

newacc2015 wrote: »

Germany is staying mute on the fact, they are mining coal massively again. The only news article I have seen it on is the NYTimes. They are literally demolishing towns to open new pit mines. I doubt Germany will be lobbying for emission tax increases which will make electricity more expensive. Especially since German Electricity is already super expensive and will be worsened with nuclear power closures.

Germany is switching off a large number of lignite plants. I was listening to it on the radio at the weekend. it will result in an increase in cost of electricity at a fraction of a cent per kwh

50.39% generated by wind now !

http://www.iwea.com/index.cfm?page=viewnews&id=137

Windiest June on Record for Irish Wind Energy Production

Quote

The peak for the month in terms of wind energy production was recorded on June 1st when Irish wind energy output hit 1805MW, enough energy to power over 1.1 million homes, according to figures published by EirGrid, who monitor electricity generation and usage.

End Quote,

So today should see that record broken again, from the pic above current production is 2,066 Mw !

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all

46% of energy coming from wind at this time, just a fraction more than Gas and Coal combined.

This is nice to see and with solar PV could be much higher % from renewable.

But it's totally irrelevant as at the start of the week there was 0.6%

ted1

fclauson wrote: »

has this been confirmed - 50% has been around for a long time

(SNSP = Systems non symmetric penetration) i.e. stuff which draws its frequency from the grid rather than provides it too the grid - anything inverter driven

It's a trial that is going on 75% is the long term goal.. We need 5 units on to keep inertia at above 20,000MW or the 50% limit still applies. EWIC counts towards SNSP so 500MW can be attributable to it

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pay foreign companies for fossil fuels or pay foreign companies to harness our wind and charge us, I think I prefer to pay for wind.

We promised cheaper bills at the start of all these wind turbine installations but it hasn't happened and this I am against.

the infrastructure required for wind is expensive, additional sub stations, distribution and transmission lines, capacity payments to thermal plants. REFIT prices to wind companies. It costs the same to build and commission a sub station for a small wind farm connections at 110kv as it does for a large thermal plant

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

the infrastructure required for wind is expensive, additional sub stations, distribution and transmission lines, capacity payments to thermal plants. REFIT prices to wind companies. It costs the same to build and commission a sub station for a small wind farm connections at 110kv as it does for a large thermal plant

So just burn more cheap coal then ? or Gas ?

We have to start somewhere.

I would like to see a lot more offshore wind farms but I bet this will only add tot he cost.

I would love to have seen more of the wind farms in the control of Irish companies or the Government.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

But it's totally irrelevant as at the start of the week there was 0.6%

I was comparing it to the article in June which saw 1.8 GW as the record peak so today must mean a record peak of slightly over 2 GW.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So just burn more cheap coal then ? or Gas ?

We have to start somewhere.

I would like to see a lot more offshore wind farms but I bet this will only add tot he cost.

I would love to have seen more of the wind farms in the control of Irish companies or the Government.

We started some where but lost the run of ourselves. We have put 2 GW of wind in the grid. As a result prices have gone up and investment firms are making a great return.
We should have capped the about if wind to 1GW and then added Biomass/ PV/ pumped hydro/ etc

Wind is not the answer, why would the country run it. They are managed by a control centre in Denmark/ Germany. There's a small team involved in servicing them other than that there is noting to do once they are built

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was comparing it to the article in June which saw 1.8 GW as the record peak so today must mean a record peak of slightly over 2 GW.

A bank holiday Monday will have a lower load so not necessarily

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

A bank holiday Monday will have a lower load so not necessarily

I'm not so sure about that because I'm not seeing more energy consumed or generated that I normally do. Or I don't notice it.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

We started some where but lost the run of ourselves. We have put 2 GW of wind in the grid. As a result prices have gone up and investment firms are making a great return.
We should have capped the about if wind to 1GW and then added Biomass/ PV/ pumped hydro/ etc

Wind is not the answer, why would the country run it. They are managed by a control centre in Denmark/ Germany. There's a small team involved in servicing them other than that there is noting to do once they are built

Look at all the money sent to oil companies what's the difference ? at least wind energy is much cheaper.

I agree we should have a lot more much cheaper Solar PV.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Look at all the money sent to oil companies what's the difference ? at least wind energy is much cheaper.

I agree we should have a lot more much cheaper Solar PV.

Wind might be cheaper to convert but the price to the end consumer is higher.
So all that happens is the investors get rich.
We need to move away from new wind projects and develop other RES

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Wind might be cheaper to convert but the price to the end consumer is higher.
So all that happens is the investors get rich.
We need to move away from new wind projects and develop other RES

Someone's always going to get rich out of it otherwise no one will invest in anything.

We need not necessarily move away from wind but introduce other renewable sources particularly solar PV, Biomass ? depends where the fuel comes from, I'm not a fan of burning anything for fuel or heat.

Not sure hydro works in Ireland or pumped storage ?

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Someone's always going to get rich out of it otherwise no one will invest in anything.

We need not necessarily move away from wind but introduce other renewable sources particularly solar PV, Biomass ? depends where the fuel comes from, I'm not a fan of burning anything for fuel or heat.

Not sure hydro works in Ireland or pumped storage ?

When you allow for carbon sequestration biomass such as willow is carbon neutral when burnt.
How can we continue to add wind farms and other RES. There's a finite load on the grid. If wind makes up a large percentage you still need thermal plants to generate when the wind is down or when the wind is up are you going to curtail the biomass or other RES?

For pumped hydro we could hollow out a mountain or similar

robp

Deleted User wrote: »

Look at all the money sent to oil companies what's the difference ? at least wind energy is much cheaper.

I agree we should have a lot more much cheaper Solar PV.

What money? Oil companies don't get special treatment.

robp

robp wrote: »

What money? Oil companies don't get special treatment.

Sure they do, look at all the tax they got away with paying for stealing our energy from our reserves that the Government basically gave away !

But even so I would still favour money going to green energy than just continue to the point there are no fossil fuels in 300 years or so and all the crap it does to the environment because what's the real cost when you add the damage to the environment and human health ?

As I said, we got to start somewhere.

robp

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure they do, look at all the tax they got away with paying for stealing our energy from our reserves that the Government basically gave away !

But even so I would still favour money going to green energy than just continue to the point there are no fossil fuels in 300 years or so and all the crap it does to the environment because what's the real cost when you add the damage to the environment ant human health ?

As I said, we got to start somewhere.

Eh no oil has ever been retrieved in Ireland and none will be for the foreseeable future with oil at rock bottom prices so oil companies haven't been subsidised. Maybe in the US but all business have some levels of subsidises. Renewable also damage the environment though.

robp

robp wrote: »

Eh no oil has ever been retrieved in Ireland and none will be for the foreseeable future with oil at rock bottom prices. Renewable also damage the environment though.

OIl/ Gas whatever I meant energy.

Renewables are by far the lesser of two evils and Solar PV is much cheaper with minimal impact to the environment.

There is always going to be some impact due to our growing energy demands and in 5 years the huge surge in Data Centre construction will mean 18% more energy needed and this is promised to come from renewable sources this is one of the reasons they will be coming to Ireland but we need to rely less on wind and more on Solar PV.

robp

double post

robp

Deleted User wrote: »

OIl/ Gas whatever I meant energy.

Renewables are by far the lesser of two evils and Solar PV is much cheaper with minimal impact to the environment.

There is always going to be some impact due to our growing energy demands and in 5 years the huge surge in Data Centre construction will mean 18% more energy needed and this is promised to come from renewable sources this is one of the reasons they will be coming to Ireland but we need to rely less on wind and more on Solar PV.

That is another gov. policy that has passed unquestioned. A lot of investment required with little exchequer return. I would argue turbines are a far greater threat to Irish wildlands than gas and oil has been historically.

[QUOTE=robp;97517201 I would argue turbines are a far greater threat to Irish wildlands than gas and oil has been historically.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely not even close to burning our bogs, an environmental catastrophe.

SeanW

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely not even close to burning our bogs, an environmental catastrophe.

You don't think driving bats to extinction would be a "catastrophe"? Because that's what the mainstream environmental left is advocating.