Running Fibre-Optic broadband cables above ground?

Andy From Sligo

OK so I live in a Rural Area and I understand that it would be too much to expect that they (eir / KN Networks) to go to all the trouble to dig up all the roads to bring broadband to our area for fast broadband but I have read on the Internet that fibre optic cables dont *have* to be buried underground and that in Ontario Canada most of the fibre optic cables run alongside the copper cable on the wooden telegraph poles fine - so why can they not do the same here in Ireland and get fibre optic easily to rural areas - just wondering. Must be cheaper laying them on existing poles rather than the expense of burying them underground?

The Cush

It'll happen due course, eir did it in their fibre to the home trial in rural Belcarra, Co Mayo.

Eircom CEO Richard Moat

... So it's got to be fibre to the home. We've concluded that it's cheaper and easier and more logical to run fibre along the road and along the poles we already have."

http://www.independent.ie/business/richard-moat-the-fibre-diet-will-get-eircom-moving-again-30964828.html

kingtiger

Of course they do


https://youtu.be/Vt-fayQRoCs

Andy From Sligo

The Cush wrote: »

It'll happen due course, eir did it in their fibre to the home trial in rural Belcarra, Co Mayo.

ooh brilliant! - Im quite excited now.... still they are not the quickest when it comes to rolling things out though across the country. we shall see.

The Cush

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ooh brilliant! - Im quite excited now.... still they are not the quickest when it comes to rolling things out though across the country. we shall see.

http://fibrerollout.ie/where-and-when/

The blue lines represent eir's planned rural fibre rollout 2017-20

Beyond the blue line it'll be the NBP - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/communications/en-ie/Broadband/Pages/Connecting-Communities.aspx

Andy From Sligo

The Cush wrote: »

http://fibrerollout.ie/where-and-when/

The blue lines represent eir's planned rural fibre rollout 2017-20

Beyond the blue line it'll be the NBP - http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/communications/en-ie/Broadband/Pages/Connecting-Communities.aspx

Thanks for the links. - It looks like our cabinet (CNY1_E01) is planned then, so seeing as rollout is up to 2020 it could possibly be up to another 5 years before they put it in!

I have just registered my email address with the SIRO (ESB+VODAFONE) system I see Sligo is the first town to get it in connaucht but that might be just Sligo Town Centre - even so it might be quicker than eircom/eir

The Cush

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

It looks like our cabinet (CNY1_E01) is planned then

That's for efibre (via copper) if you're within 1.7km of the exchange.

Andy From Sligo

The Cush wrote: »

That's for efibre (via copper) if you're within 1.7km of the exchange.

What I mean was its planned to have the box replaced by a box or gubbings inside that would accept Fibre Optic cable - as I say that could take years still to be replaced, so maybe the Vodafone/ESB option might come quicker for us

Andy From Sligo

The Cush wrote: »

That's for efibre (via copper) if you're within 1.7km of the exchange.

Isnt efibre via copper sort of conflicting as fibre optics is not copper cable ?!?

BoatMad

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Isnt efibre via copper sort of conflicting as fibre optics is not copper cable ?!?

most "last mile" connections are via copper, my cabinet is 900 metres away and its all coper to there

The Cush

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

What I mean was its planned to have the box replaced by a box or gubbings inside that would accept Fibre Optic cable - as I say that could take years still to be replaced, so maybe the Vodafone/ESB option might come quicker for us

Maybe. Your local exchange is due to go efibre live in the first half of next year, maybe?

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Isnt efibre via copper sort of conflicting as fibre optics is not copper cable ?!?

Confusing alright, in hindsight maybe they would have named 100Mb efibre (FTTCabinet/FTTexchange) something else if they knew FTTHome was coming so soon. They retail FTTH as efibre extreme.

Andy From Sligo

BoatMad wrote: »

most "last mile" connections are via copper, my cabinet is 900 metres away and its all coper to there

Ah right I get it now. - I think with our system the exchange box goes to a dish outside the box and picks up microwave broadband from a mast on the mountain and then copper cables from the exchange box to houses in village. The maximum anyone could get home or business (even though it dont reach near it) is 12mbps download ADSL - even though though its advertised 24mbps Download. I get 6mbps (adsl) download speed most of the time at my house

Andy From Sligo

The Cush wrote: »

Maybe. Your local exchange is due to go efibre live in the first half of next year, maybe?

Oh thats good news if its true - not too long to wait, just around corner

Im with Vodafone broadband at home at the moment (ADSL) - I wonder if it would be best to stay with them and get the ESB/Vodafone sysytem when (if) it becomes availble - or wait for the eir e-fibre ?
Trouble is then I reckon if eir make the line e-fibre I bet they will want you (me i mean) to leave vodafone at home adsl and sign up to one of their eir e-fibre packages to take advantage of e-fibre:rolleyes:

ED E

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Oh thats good news if its true - not too long to wait, just around corner

Im with Vodafone broadband at home at the moment (ADSL) - I wonder if it would be best to stay with them and get the ESB/Vodafone sysytem when (if) it becomes availble - or wait for the eir e-fibre ?
Trouble is then I reckon if eir make the line e-fibre I bet they will want you (me i mean) to leave vodafone at home adsl and sign up to one of their eir e-fibre packages to take advantage of e-fibre:rolleyes:

Nope.

Vodafone and Sky re-sell eFibre too, just like ADSL. Unless you're within 1500m of the centre of the town/village then it makes no difference to you as you wont be covered.

Andy From Sligo

ED E wrote: »

Nope.

Vodafone and Sky re-sell eFibre too, just like ADSL. Unless you're within 1500m of the centre of the town/village then it makes no difference to you as you wont be covered.

Yep - Im not normally good with measurements/distance but I am pretty sure I am within 1500m of the exchange

rob808

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Yep - Im not normally good with measurements/distance but I am pretty sure I am within 1500m of the exchange

Try use the where and when to calculate to measure distance it give you a idea but if your 1500m you get 15mb down and 3 up.

Andy From Sligo

rob808 wrote: »

Try use the where and when to calculate to measure distance it give you a idea but if your 1500m you get 15mb down and 3 up.

Thanks. I Just used the calculate distance and from the exchange box to our house and it says its 413metres

rob808

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Thanks. I Just used the calculate distance and from the exchange box to our house and it says its 413metres

I think you get about 60mb at 15 up at that distance not bad I'm stuck on 4mb downloading a 17Gb patch for witcher 3 on ps4 taking ages only download 8Gb in about 5 to 6 hours.

Andy From Sligo

rob808 wrote: »

I think you get about 60mb at 15 up at that distance not bad I'm stuck on 4mb downloading a 17Gb patch for witcher 3 on ps4 taking ages only download 8Gb in about 5 to 6 hours.

Ah right so if we did get e-fibre at our distance you reckon we should get 60mbps down? - is that what you are saying?

Andy From Sligo

BoatMad wrote: »

most "last mile" connections are via copper, my cabinet is 900 metres away and its all coper to there

So the actual fibre cable has 'no signal loss' as such because it uses light (speed of light) - so the signal loss is with the copper cable in the 'last mile' is where speeds cut down then have I got that right?

In amongst all this e-fibre 'upgrade' across the country why do they have to use copper cable still? why cant the fiber optic cable run in parralell alongside the copper cable on the pole and then directly into the house terminating at a optical modem router in the house? why get the optical running all that way to the exchange box only to still rely on old fashioned copper cable - I know its to save money for them because all they have to do is supply only the fibre optic cable to the exchange box and then just use the remaining copper cable thats still there on the poles, but still?

I should imagine that in Towns businesses that are e-fibre enabled the route does not use/rely on copper cables whatsover at all and get full rate broadband with no signal loss and no caveat on area of distance when using fibre optic cable?

Nichard Dixon

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

So the actual fibre cable has 'no signal loss' as such because it uses light (speed of light) - so the signal loss is with the copper cable in the 'last mile' is where speeds cut down then have I got that right?

In amongst all this e-fibre 'upgrade' across the country why do they have to use copper cable still? why cant the fiber optic cable run in parralell alongside the copper cable on the pole and then directly into the house terminating at a optical modem router in the house? why get the optical running all that way to the exchange box only to still rely on old fashioned copper cable - I know its to save money for them because all they have to do is supply only the fibre optic cable to the exchange box and then just use the remaining copper cable thats still there on the poles, but still?

I should imagine that in Towns businesses that are e-fibre enabled the route does not use/rely on copper cables whatsover at all and get full rate broadband with no signal loss and no caveat on area of distance when using fibre optic cable?

At the point in time it is usual to have fibre to a cabinet and the distribution to individual premises as copper. Since the copper is already wired into each location this saves quite a bit of cost and a gives pretty decent service in urban areas, at least. While fibre optic to the home will increase in important, the copper will have a role for a few more years at least.

BoatMad

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

So the actual fibre cable has 'no signal loss' as such because it uses light (speed of light) - so the signal loss is with the copper cable in the 'last mile' is where speeds cut down then have I got that right?

In amongst all this e-fibre 'upgrade' across the country why do they have to use copper cable still? why cant the fiber optic cable run in parralell alongside the copper cable on the pole and then directly into the house terminating at a optical modem router in the house? why get the optical running all that way to the exchange box only to still rely on old fashioned copper cable - I know its to save money for them because all they have to do is supply only the fibre optic cable to the exchange box and then just use the remaining copper cable thats still there on the poles, but still?

I should imagine that in Towns businesses that are e-fibre enabled the route does not use/rely on copper cables whatsover at all and get full rate broadband with no signal loss and no caveat on area of distance when using fibre optic cable?

Very few buildings in town or not are cabled with fibre to the house. Some modern estates have done so.

In practice it's irrelevant. Copper over short runs can deliver upto 200 Mb/s. I have 90 Mb/s on mine with 900 metres to the fibre cabinet.

In practice most houses are supplied underground from the last pole and pulling fibre through that isn't cost effective given the existence of the copper pair.

In reality at over about 50 Mb/s other factors limit real throughput , like end to end bandwidth , wifi router real bandwidth , PC bandwidth etc. having a gazillions megabits to the local exchange isn't a whole lot of use in reality

rob808

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Ah right so if we did get e-fibre at our distance you reckon we should get 60mbps down? - is that what you are saying?

I would say so are you in Sligo town because eir and siro are doing FTTH with speeds upto 1Gb.I have to wait till 2017 -2020 for eir to do there rural FTTH to ribbon delvelopments just waiting on the NBP map to get updated in November.

Andy From Sligo

rob808 wrote: »

I would say so are you in Sligo town because eir and siro are doing FTTH with speeds upto 1Gb.I have to wait till 2017 -2020 for eir to do there rural FTTH to ribbon delvelopments just waiting on the NBP map to get updated in November.

No not in town unfortunately 11 miles from Sligo town - in fact in the 'wrong' area because if we were just down the road in Collooney Village they actually have their e-fibre exchange live now right this minute! :rolleyes: - our cabinet for our village is not even e-fibre ready

Andy From Sligo

Excuse my crappy diagram but this is how I thought/hoped they might be doing it - just running the fibre optic cable alongside all the existing copper cables on the poles and straight to the houses:



So the way they are going to do it then to (cut down on using any more fibre optic cable than they need I suppose) is we will have this lovely shiny modern technology e-fibre optic cable going to the village exchange box then and then coming out of the box will be the existing copper cables that are god knows what age, have been battered by wind/rain/snow and ice and heat from the sun and water that has got into connections on the wooden telegraph posts over the years. - this is like a fast super new motorway (e-fibre) then bottlenecked by the outdated copper cables which loose signal the further the distance away from the exchange !
Sure its going to cost more in the lower example (running fibre optic alongside the existing copper cables on the wooden poles) but at least it will be modern fibre optic cable all the way from box to home.

tsue921i8wljb3

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Excuse my crappy diagram but this is how I thought/hoped they might be doing it - just running the fibre optic cable alongside all the existing copper cables on the poles and straight to the houses:



So the way they are going to do it then to (cut down on using any more fibre optic cable than they need I suppose) is we will have this lovely shiny modern technology e-fibre optic cable going to the village exchange box then and then coming out of the box will be the existing copper cables that are god knows what age, have been battered by wind/rain/snow and ice and heat from the sun and water that has got into connections on the wooden telegraph posts over the years. - this is like a fast super new motorway (e-fibre) then bottlenecked by the outdated copper cables which loose signal the further the distance away from the exchange !
Sure its going to cost more in the lower example (running fibre optic alongside the existing copper cables on the wooden poles) but at least it will be modern fibre optic cable all the way from box to home.

OpenEir and probably Siro do intend to roll out fibre optic cables as in your second diagram. It is called FTTH (Fibre To The Home). OpenEir have released a map at

http://www.openeir.ie/Our_Network/

Click on NGA Fibre Broadband Network

On the map click Rural Fibre Routes.

Areas not covered by this will most likely have to be serviced by the NBP.

rob808

I think there doing that for rural delvelopments but for me I have ducting so it be all underground.I know siro going to be doing small villages and towns in phases 2 but it probably won't be till 2018 before they start and eir just doing 66 towns till 2018 and the rural fibre routes by 2020 with FTTH.They haven't said they do FTTC areas to FTTH that could change in the future.

Andy From Sligo

Raiden Tinkling Guitar wrote: »

OpenEir and probably Siro do intend to roll out fibre optic cables as in your second diagram. It is called FTTH (Fibre To The Home). OpenEir have released a map at

http://www.openeir.ie/Our_Network/

Click on NGA Fibre Broadband Network

On the map click Rural Fibre Routes.

Areas not covered by this will most likely have to be serviced by the NBP.

Clicked on that map - but our exchange is 'planned' for early next year but because they have not mentioned FTTH for our one I have a feeling it will just be Fibre only up to exchange box and the rest of the village served by copper - I hope I am proved wrong.

tsue921i8wljb3

rob808 wrote: »

I think there doing that for rural delvelopments but for me I have ducting so it be all underground.I know siro going to be doing small villages and towns in phases 2 but it probably won't be till 2018 before they start and eir just doing 66 towns till 2018 and the rural fibre routes by 2020 with FTTH.They haven't said they do FTTC areas to FTTH that could change in the future.

My premises is, just about, on the FTTH map and mine and all the premises around me are serviced by overhead drops.

Really though all we are doing is speculating. None of us know which companies are going to bid or have bids accepted for the NBP, or what effect the award of a contract will have on roll out plans. The sooner the bidding process is finished the better.

Nichard Dixon

The point is though, that the extension of fibre to a crossroads near you, with the use of existing coppper for the last Km or two will give people speeds a lot greater than they are getting at the moment and this is a reasonable transition. I wouldn't like to see some areas getting fibre optic to the byre while other parts of country had next to nothing in the way of broadband.

tsue921i8wljb3

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Clicked on that map - but our exchange is 'planned' for early next year but because they have not mentioned FTTH for our one I have a feeling it will just be Fibre only up to exchange box and the rest of the village served by copper - I hope I am proved wrong.

If FTTH is not mentioned in your area I'm afraid you are correct in that it will be traditional e-Fibre for now but as I said to Rob the NBP is the great unknown in all of this. I expect rollout plans to change with the announcement of contracts.

rob808

Raiden Tinkling Guitar wrote: »

My premises is, just about, on the FTTH map and mine and all the premises around me are serviced by overhead drops.

Really though all we are doing is speculating. None of us know which companies are going to bid or have bids accepted for the NBP, or what effect the award of a contract will have on roll out plans. The sooner the bidding process is finished the better.

well I'm hoping it siro and eir and Gigabite fibre limited get the contracts but have a feeling wisp will win some of it.I hope Eir do the fibre rural rollout and the NBP map get updated with eir rural FTTH.

The blue line end outside my house doh the NGA map goes all out of focus when zoom in so it hard to see my house on it.I then notice the man so drag it onto map and put we're I live and it show you up close and blue line does end at my gate:D.

tsue921i8wljb3

rob808 wrote: »

well I'm hoping it siro and eir and Gigabite fibre limited get the contracts but have a feeling wisp will win some of it.I hope Eir do the fibre rural rollout and the NBP map get updated with eir rural FTTH.

The blue line end outside my house doh the NGA map goes all out of focus when zoom in so it hard to see my house on it.I then notice the man so drag it onto map and put we're I live and it show you up close and blue line does end at my gate:D.

It ends at my gate too!

rob808

Raiden Tinkling Guitar wrote: »

It ends at my gate too!

let hope eir keep there word and goverment make sure they do it.The NBP really won't start till 2017 because there doing the school and business first in mid 2016 when it starts.It clear now why eir rural FTTH start in 2017 there gona include the houses they win in NBP contract and if they don't win any they just go ahead with the houses in there rural FTTH areas.

Andy From Sligo

How far can you get the password encrypted 802.11n signal to travel commercially? - can it be amplified by electronics? whats maximum speed you could get on a commercial type setup- or is 802.11g mainly just for use in home? - heres what im thinking. Put fibre optic up to exchange - fit dish / aerial on mast just outside exchange box so paying subscribers in the village can put password into their already equipped 802.11g computer/laptop/tablet/phone and surf that way - would save the problem of the cabling from the exchange to the home

- wacky Idea maybe - or maybe it could be done by microwave signal? and subscriber to use a high powered receiver modem inside house (dont like the idea of putting dish on outside wall or roof)

The Cush

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

- or maybe it could be done by microwave signal? and subscriber to use a high powered receiver modem inside house (dont like the idea of putting dish on outside wall or roof)

something like how the mobile networks do broadband now?

Andy From Sligo

The Cush wrote: »

something like how the mobile networks do broadband now?

um yeah in a way but sort of like using fibre optics and wireless signal haha - maybe give it a silly name like Hybrid broadband ... mind you if they are going to use existing copper cables with fibre optic cable its most probably already thought of as a form of Hybrid

The Cush

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

um yeah in a way but sort of like using fibre optics and wireless signal haha - maybe give it a silly name like Hybrid broadband ...

like fibre optic backhaul to a mobile base station.

Rural Ireland needs FTTH not more wireless.

BoatMad

The Cush wrote: »

like fibre optic backhaul to a mobile base station.

Rural Ireland needs FTTH not more wireless.

rural ireland does not need FTTH. first it needs broadband

murphaph

BoatMad wrote: »

rural ireland does not need FTTH. first it needs broadband

Which is extremely difficult to deliver over the POTS network due to the way Irish people have chosen to live (in this extremely dispersed manner), leaving them with copper runs several kilometres long. FTTC is no solution to this problem. The only long term solution for broadband provision which can help given our awful "planning" is FTTH. Wireless is shared medium...it will have limited use, but we have effectively suburbanised the countryside, so it will not work on a wider scale.

Ireland is, literally, one of the worst places you could be tasked with deploying broadband. I'm amazed at how well things are progressing there.

BoatMad

murphaph wrote: »

Which is extremely difficult to deliver over the POTS network due to the way Irish people have chosen to live (in this extremely dispersed manner), leaving them with copper runs several kilometres long. FTTC is no solution to this problem. The only long term solution for broadband provision which can help given our awful "planning" is FTTH. Wireless is shared medium...it will have limited use, but we have effectively suburbanised the countryside, so it will not work on a wider scale.

Ireland is, literally, one of the worst places you could be tasked with deploying broadband. I'm amazed at how well things are progressing there.

FTTC /FTTP can offer upto 200-300 Mb/s to the user,

the nonsense of Gigabit FTTH in a rural dispersed area like ireland is just that nonsense . Theres no back end infrastructure that can support massive parallel gigabit internetworking in ireland and its all fluff

the key is to reach as many as possible with 50-100 Mb networking, not a few over 50 years that get FTTH

The Cush

BoatMad wrote: »

rural ireland does not need FTTH. first it needs broadband

I have broadband, up to 3Mb max, via a WISP.

We're 4Km from the local exchange, no chance of efibre here and the phone line tests at 4Mb max for adsl but probably much less in practice as the exchange has radio backhaul.

The only tech being rolled out here now that would provide us and others outside 2km with decent broadband is FTTH. I don't particularly want 1Gb, 30Mb will do for a start.

BoatMad

The Cush wrote: »

I have broadband, up to 3Mb max, via a WISP.

We're 4Km from the local exchange, no chance of efibre here and the phone line tests at 4Mb max for adsl but probably much less in practice as the exchange has radio backhaul.

The only tech being rolled out here now that would provide us and others outside 2km with decent broadband is FTTH. I don't particularly want 1Gb, 30Mb will do for a start.

FTTC to a local cabinet and existing copper will easily deliver 30 Mb, and without the costs of FTTH

The Cush

BoatMad wrote: »

FTTC to a local cabinet and existing copper will easily deliver 30 Mb, and without the costs of FTTH

Unfortunately it's not be trialled, tested or rolled out here. If it was we'd jump at it. FTTH is the only tech actively being rolled suitable for us.

BoatMad

The Cush wrote: »

Unfortunately it's not be trialled, tested or rolled out here. If it was we'd jump at it. FTTH is the only tech actively being rolled suitable for us.

huh, lots of FTTC here

The Cush

BoatMad wrote: »

huh, lots of FTTC here

4Km from the cab?

BoatMad

The Cush wrote: »

4Km from the cab?

I see, well then perhaps FTTP might be best

Gonzo

if FTTC was to be rolled out throughout the country, they would need 1 every km at least to make the speeds worthwhile in every home in the country, it would probably take several hundred thousand cabinets to achieve this, totally not practical!

rob808

The Cush wrote: »

I have broadband, up to 3Mb max, via a WISP.

We're 4Km from the local exchange, no chance of efibre here and the phone line tests at 4Mb max for adsl but probably much less in practice as the exchange has radio backhaul.

The only tech being rolled out here now that would provide us and others outside 2km with decent broadband is FTTH. I don't particularly want 1Gb, 30Mb will do for a start.

well we be able to get 150mb,300,1Gb when we get FTTH we have better broadband than FTTC areas.I say eir will upgrade FTTC areas with either FTTH or Gfast or the newer version which probably be out in 2017/2018 at some stage.

Avada

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

How far can you get the password encrypted 802.11n signal to travel commercially? - can it be amplified by electronics? whats maximum speed you could get on a commercial type setup- or is 802.11g mainly just for use in home? - heres what im thinking. Put fibre optic up to exchange - fit dish / aerial on mast just outside exchange box so paying subscribers in the village can put password into their already equipped 802.11g computer/laptop/tablet/phone and surf that way - would save the problem of the cabling from the exchange to the home

- wacky Idea maybe - or maybe it could be done by microwave signal? and subscriber to use a high powered receiver modem inside house (dont like the idea of putting dish on outside wall or roof)

You're basically describing wireless 'Broadband', using fibre for backhaul. It exists already and it's terrible.

The Cush

Gonzo wrote: »

if FTTC was to be rolled out throughout the country, they would need 1 every km at least to make the speeds worthwhile in every home in the country,

With fibre backhaul to each one.