"There's nothing heroic about Ireland’s World Cup failure" - The Times

The Lost Sheep

QuinDixie wrote: »

Fans and former players are saying there is no need too over react but I think it is more important we dont under react.
New blood and common sense is needed.

for the next 6 nations, no player should start consecutive matches.
if we continue with the same tactics POM and SOB will be the next to follow ferris.

No player starting consecutive matches in 2016 6 Nations is an over reaction... and wont happen

WarZ

QuinDixie wrote: »

Fans and former players are saying there is no need too over react but I think it is more important we dont under react.
New blood and common sense is needed.

I am absolutely sick of this sort of attitude (don't over react brigade). The media and most of the public literally bend over for this team. Every terrible performance is excused for and we are constantly reminded about how world class these players are.

Well if they're world class then why can't they get past a QF stage? They are overrated and performed poorly. Why shouldn't they be told that?

Our soccer team is a million times worse in standard by comparison and they still manage to get results, they beat the equivalent of New Zealand only recently. Meanwhile our 'world class' egotistical rugby players can't ever get past the knockout stage of the world cup.

QuinDixie

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

No player starting consecutive matches in 2016 6 Nations is an over reaction... and wont happen

i believe we would win the grand slam by resting players. I think we have the players, they just need to be let loose.

What we need is real competition among the players.

Cronin The Destroyer

WarZ wrote: »

We don't have a good team, we have a team who scrapped past Italy and were thrashed by Argentina despite having one of the most successful coaches in world rugby.

We have a decent team by the poor standards of the NH where only Wales remain competitive. We are brutal by SH standards. The NZ bench would all comfortably start for Ireland. Their skills are on another planet compared to Irelands.

NZ are freaks. They are in a class all of their own.

As for Oz and SA, these days we beat them as often as they beat us, or thereabouts.

We are not a complete team, and in several respects we are definitely poor, and yeah I'm disappointed to fupp, but I think it's clear that one of our main problems developmentally is that we don't take risks (offloads, playing the full width of the pitch, getting the ball to our wingers to score), and that is a coaching issue, and yes, symptomatic of the poor state of NH rugby in general. The more pessimistic alternative, and I guess what you are saying, is that we don't have, and may never have, the type of players needed to exact that more ambitious game plan. I hope that's not true.

CatFromHue

just out of curiosity has anyone found anyone/any paper calling the rugby team heroes?

WarZ

Cronin The Destroyer wrote: »

NZ are freaks. They are in a class all of their own.

As for Oz and SA, these days we beat them as often as they beat us, or thereabouts.

We are not a complete team, and in several respects we are definitely poor, and yeah I'm disappointed to fupp, but I think it's clear that one of our main problems developmentally is that we don't take risks (offloads, playing the full width of the pitch, getting the ball to our wingers to score), and that is a coaching issue, and yes, symptomatic of the poor state of NH rugby in general.

We beat the likes of SA and Australia when they are on away tours and experimenting. They are a different kettle of fish in an actual knockout tournament that means something to them.

Ireland have a similar playing population to all the aforementioned countries and yet we produce no real freaks. We have no skillset. The players are overrated, they are led to believe they are already world class by the media and adoring fans when in reality they are nowhere close.

We are literally a joke compared to those Australian and NZ teams. We were already a joke for a young Argentina side who beat us by more than 20 points.

jimmybeige

QuinDixie wrote: »

i believe we would win the grand slam by resting players. I think we have the players, they just need to be let loose.

What we need is real competition among the players.

One person saying all we have is a bunch of mediocre players and another saying we can win the 6 nations whilst having no one play consecutive matches. Why on earth do you think we have so many good players that we can beat Wales, England, France etc while we rest at least half our best team every week? What have we achieved to make you think this? Never go into coaching.

WarZ wrote: »

Oh come on, France and England are absolutely **** these days. Scotland and Italy are a joke. Ireland only have to beat Wales realistically and a lot of times they cant even manage that most of the time.

England had an awful world cup, and should have beaten Wales, and finished ahead of them in the Six Nations.

We've plenty of players who can't compare to the best in their position in the world, no doubt. Most teams would probably be similar outside of the top few. Until very recently Australia's front row was pretty poor and they couldn't find a dependable 10.

Ironically Sean O'Brien who you mention, of course a very good player, is probably miles off the level of 7 that Pocock and McCaw are.

irishbucsfan

WarZ wrote: »

We beat the likes of SA and Australia when they are on away tours and experimenting. They are a different kettle of fish in an actual knockout tournament that means something to them.

Oh are they? What happened the last time we met one of those two in a knockout tournament?

esteve

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Oh are they? What happened the last time we met one of those two in a knockout tournament?

He means the knockout stage of a tournament. Seriously grasping at straws here to avoid the hard cold truth.

rrpc

WarZ wrote: »

I am absolutely sick of this sort of attitude (don't over react brigade). The media and most of the public literally bend over for this team. Every terrible performance is excused for and we are constantly reminded about how world class these players are.

Well if they're world class then why can't they get past a QF stage? They are overrated and performed poorly. Why shouldn't they be told that?

Our soccer team is a million times worse in standard by comparison and they still manage to get results, they beat the equivalent of New Zealand only recently. Meanwhile our 'world class' egotistical rugby players can't ever get past the knockout stage of the world cup.

You've changed your tune. A lot.

WarZ wrote: »

I think that's Ireland's world cup over, if not at the quarters then definitely the semis.

To lose Sean O'Brien, Paul O'Connell, Peter O'Mahony and possibly Jonathan Sexton too is just a step too far.

WarZ wrote: »

Unfortunately Ireland's luck has ran out in regards to injuries. Imagine if we had Schmidt coaching Ireland for the 2011 world cup? Wales in the QF, France in the SF.... if only.

WarZ wrote: »

Not a chance. Sexton is up there with Carter. He's one of the best players in the world and while Madigan was fantastic he is some level off Sexton. Sexton is one of the highest paid players in rugby, do you think the likes of Toulon or Clermont would be willing to offer Madigan the same and for him to be their starting 10?

As good as Madigan plays, Sexton is Sexton and he's one of our few genuinely world class players and a massive leader in the team to boot.

WarZ wrote: »

I think next week will tell us a lot but I think that our back row as a unit is much more balanced with Henry in there. No disrespect to O'Mahony who was fantastic yesterday but Henry has been in equally good form whenever he's been given the chance and he tends to be consistent in his roles every game which makes things a lot easier for SOB and Heaslip.

WarZ wrote: »

Thank god for Dave and Rob Kearney.

ThisRegard

nehe milner skudder wrote: »

no one addresses any points i make. they just attack me.not the content.

to quote ken early. "should we all have pom poms and a leotard?"

rather then address anything i say, you just detract from my credibility. it is so transparent.

Of course it's transparent, I couldn't be more blunt?! Your posting history is what detracts from your credibility, or lack thereof.

WarZ

rrpc wrote: »

You've changed your tune. A lot.

I don't see what you are trying to do here.

I have said on multiple occasions that Sexton is world class but is constantly injured.

I am also correct to say that losing 5 players will drastically lessen our chances.

I can't remember what the Dave and Rob Kearney reference was in relation to but I've never considered either of them world class.

QuinDixie

jimmybeige wrote: »

One person saying all we have is a bunch of mediocre players and another saying we can win the 6 nations whilst having no one play consecutive matches. Why on earth do you think we have so many good players that we can beat Wales, England, France etc while we rest at least half our best team every week? What have we achieved to make you think this? Never go into coaching.



England had an awful world cup, and should have beaten Wales, and finished ahead of them in the Six Nations.

We've plenty of players who can't compare to the best in their position in the world, no doubt. Most teams would probably be similar outside of the top few. Until very recently Australia's front row was pretty poor and they couldn't find a dependable 10.

Ironically Sean O'Brien who you mention, of course a very good player, is probably miles off the level of 7 that Pocock and McCaw are.

We won the last 2 6 nations and were a whisker away from grand slams both times. The 6 nations is not that difficult to win.

Our next match is wales at home
kilcoyne,cronin,moore,
ryan,Henderson,
ruddock, heaslip, murphy
murray, jackson,
cave, henshaw,
gilroy, zebo, trimble

that team would give wales enough of it. Wales are good but lets not exaggerate their standard.

Dr. Bre

CatFromHue wrote: »

just out of curiosity has anyone found anyone/any paper calling the rugby team heroes?

Rte news said they arrived home to a heroes reception at dub airport

irishbucsfan

esteve wrote: »

He means the knockout stage of a tournament. Seriously grasping at straws here to avoid the hard cold truth.

Ha, so meant that Australia and South Africa are a different kettle of fish in the knockout stages of a the world cup? Where we've hardly ever played any games against them!

WarZ

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ha, so meant that Australia and South Africa are a different kettle of fish in the knockout stages of a the world cup? Where we've hardly ever played any games against them!

You can continue living in your fantasy land where Ireland are on par with South Africa and Australia, two countries that have no problem beating New Zealand regularly a team Ireland have never even managed to get a win against in over a 100 years.

jacothelad

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Earls has played 23 many times for Munster. I'm not sold on his ability there, so I agree with you to an extent. However, putting a wing who has no experience there in for a WC QF would be madness. He'll even bowe had more experience there. Look as North for Wales, he's a great winger but an incredibly average 13.

Andrew Trimble began his Ulster and Ireland Careers as a 13. Now there wasn't much of a vacancy at 13 for Ireland.

Magico Gonzalez

QuinDixie wrote: »

We won the last 2 6 nations and were a whisker away from grand slams both times. The 6 nations is not that difficult to win.

Our next match is wales at home
kilcoyne,cronin,moore,
ryan,Henderson,
ruddock, heaslip, murphy
murray, jackson,
cave, henshaw,
gilroy, zebo, trimble

that team would give wales enough of it. Wales are good but lets not exaggerate their standard.

Trimble and Cave are not the Ulster backs (you are looking for..see what I did there) that need to start. Trimble is 31, if you want to build for the next WC you can probably leave him out. I would be bringing in McCloskey and keeping a close eye on how Olding recovers.

davegrohl48

CatFromHue wrote: »

just out of curiosity has anyone found anyone/any paper calling the rugby team heroes?

Doubt it.
I think most of the ire is directed at the truck fulls of back patting guff that had built up around this team over the last two years.
Prime article that stuck in my mind when reading it back in 2014 below:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/mind-on-the-matter-262877.html
Now fast forward to 2015. The team massively underperformed in the world cup. Will we see an acknowledgement of that with a similar article from Shannon? Naw, the usual guff in his last article about "Winners get back on the horse" type stuff.
The article has a couple of cuts at Gaelic football about how stone age it is. How we should admire the 12 hour a day video work of Mervyn Murphy.
Pure taking care of the seconds nonsense. What use is Mervyn Murphy doing 12 hours of video work if posters on here can out run Mike Ross and the now bulked up Cian Healy (who used to be quick).
It's all this "You got to work hard, you got to analyse, the margins are so fine" frankly bull nonsense backpatting guff. Of course those in the employee of rugby teams and players are going to self promote this stuff in the newspapers.
It was referenced in the article how the measurement of all this will be the world cup. Will there be an article now to say that all the stuff referenced lead nowhere?
The article reaches it's zenith of manure for me when the politeness to the tea ladies is held up as such an admirable trait. Simple everyday politeness that most Irish people have by nature. I'm calling backpatting guff on it all anyways.

Cronin The Destroyer

WarZ wrote: »

Ireland have a similar playing population to all the aforementioned countries and yet we produce no real freaks.

We have had a few, Henderson, Ferris, BOD, SOB, but yes we don't breed enough freaks. McCluskey is looking like a bit of a freak. Toner is a freak but maybe not for the right reasons (!).

But England doesn't breed too many freaks either and they won a World Cup, and manage to beat NZ the odd time. France is the only country in Europe that seem to be able to create freaks out of thin air, and look how rubbish they are doing.

rrpc

WarZ wrote: »

I don't see what you are trying to do here.

I have said on multiple occasions that Sexton is world class but is constantly injured.

I am also correct to say that losing 5 players will drastically lessen our chances.

I can't remember what the Dave and Rob Kearney reference was in relation to but I've never considered either of them world class.

You weren't calling any of our players sub-standard or overrated after the French match. You weren't saying France were sh1te either.

You called the likely effect of our injury situation accurately after that match but are now ignoring it.

You called Henshaw a poor man's Bastareaud, but said this after the French match:

WarZ wrote: »

Credit to Henshaw, not only brilliant in attack but he nullified Bastaraud when defending at the 13 channel. Can't have been easy for either centre dealing with the constant changing in positions between attack and defence.

You've said not a single player could make the New Zealand squad but said that Sexton 'was up there with Dan Carter' etc.

ThisRegard

CatFromHue wrote: »

just out of curiosity has anyone found anyone/any paper calling the rugby team heroes?

The foundation of the ridiculous story in the OP was a Sindo online article written immediately after the loss. When the author himself was asked the very same question on Off the Ball that's the only example he could list.

WarZ

rrpc wrote: »

You weren't calling any of our players sub-standard or overrated after the French match. You weren't saying France were sh1te either.

I was calling France **** actually.

You called Henshaw a poor man's Bastareaud, but said this after the French match:

One game doesn't make a player. Bastareaud is still a miles better player than Henshaw currently. He would tear up the pro 12.

You've said not a single player could make the New Zealand squad but said that Sexton 'was up there with Dan Carter' etc.

Once again, I have never said Sexton wasn't world class. I still don't think he'd oust Dan Carter though

irishbucsfan

ThisRegard wrote: »

The foundation of the ridiculous story in the OP was a Sindo online article written immediately after the loss. When the author himself was asked the very same question on Off the Ball that's the only example he could list.

I think the author of the article as well as certain posters in this thread could do with learning the definition of "straw man argument."

The Irish team aren't being called heroes and their players aren't being called world class. People are arguing with themselves.

jimmybeige

Magico Gonzalez wrote:

Trimble and Cave are not the Ulster backs (you are looking for..see what I did there) that need to start. Trimble is 31, if you want to build for the next WC you can probably leave him out. I would be bringing in McCloskey and keeping a close eye on how Olding recovers.

QuinDixie wrote:

Our next match is wales at home kilcoyne,cronin,moore, ryan,Henderson, ruddock, heaslip, murphy murray, jackson, cave, henshaw, gilroy, zebo, trimble

Wales would trounce that team. Did you just start watching rugby 2 years ago because we've not won many six nations if you think they are easy. If anybody is overrating a team it's you overrating the above.

CatFromHue

ThisRegard wrote: »

The foundation of the ridiculous story in the OP was a Sindo online article written immediately after the loss. When the author himself was asked the very same question on Off the Ball that's the only example he could list.

I just remembered this when I was looking at the radio forum in here about his "The Tribune sent 3 reporters to Argentina but Miguel Delaney had to fund his own trip to the SA Soccer World Cup" line.

The south africa soccer world cup was in June 2010.

The rugby team didn't go to Argentina that year, they went to New Zealand and Australia and it was a full strength tour too.

Ire toured Argentine in June 2014 and June 2007 and The Tribune closed in Feb 2011, I think.

So in 2007 the guys would have been sent on a Celtic Tiger jolly to Argentina but by June 2010 the recession was biting pretty hard the paper was prob struggling for cash. It closed 8 months after the world cup.

Snickers Man

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think the author of the article as well as certain posters in this thread could do with learning the definition of "straw man argument."

The Irish team aren't being called heroes and their players aren't being called world class. People are arguing with themselves.

Just listening to this guy now on podcast and he's an absolute dickhead. Nothing to contribute. Just a whinging bastard.

Can we send someone to Brazil to give him a good kicking?

Or better still just ignore him.

.ak

Well this thread has gone from discussing an article to a thread where people can stick the boot into Ireland... So aside of the fact it's gone wildly off thread it also won't end well.