Plan for the future

Stan27

Saw on some website a predicted team for 2019, and got me thinking.

What should be done to help improve the rugby in the country to improve the national team. ?
For me the main options are
1- Connacht. Keep them improving!!
2- would like to see the ail get more attention. - few more matches on tv will help I think.
3 move players ie so many Leinster back rows etc.

The Lost Sheep

Stan27 wrote: »

Saw on some website a predicted team for 2019, and got me thinking.

What should be done to help improve the rugby in the country to improve the national team. ?
For me the main options are
1- Connacht. Keep them improving!!
2- would like to see the ail get more attention. - few more matches on tv will help I think.
3 move players ie so many Leinster back rows etc.

Change the whole age grade structure. We have a small playing base and we need to improve structures to get more playing and keep playing at a higher level. The fall off in playing numbers at 18-22 doesn't help the sport

What do you propose to keep Connacht improving?
Simply putting AIL games on tv isn't enough. What would you propose to help it other than that? Giving the clubs more attention isn't enough. Social rugby is struggling in many areas what would you propose for social rugby to improve? How do you do this?

ulster_Beef

Ulster can offload a number of backs. We have a hell of a lot coming through and they wont all get the break unfortunately.

Stan27

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Change the whole age grade structure. We have a small playing base and we need to improve structures to get more playing and keep playing at a higher level. The fall off in playing numbers at 18-22 doesn't help the sport

I WOULDN't KNOW TOO MUCH ABOUT AGE STRUCTURS SO I WON't COMMENT. FOR THE FALLOUT NUMBERS FOR ME AND MAJOIIRY OF RUGHY PLAYING FRIENDS INJURY AND FEAR OF GETTING THEM FOR WORK REASONS IS THE MAIN REASON WE STOPPED. FINE IN COLLEGE BUT IF YOU DONT HAVE A DESK JOB WORKING WITH A SORE SHOULDER ISNT IDEAL

What do you propose to keep Connacht improving?
I THINK THEY ARE GOING VERY WELL TOO BE HONEST, BUT KEEPING THE BIG NAME PLAYERS LIKE HENSHAW ETC WILL BE IMPORTANT. THEY ARE IMPROVING YEAR ON YEAR.
Simply putting AIL games on tv isn't enough. MIGHT HELP ADVERTISE THE AIL.

What would you propose to help it other than that? WHEN I WAS IN UCD THE CROWDS WERE NEVER THAT BIG AND CHARGED 10€ FOR A STUDENT. TRY AND INCOURAGE MORE PROPLE TO GO TO MATCHES

Giving the clubs more attention isn't enough. Social rugby is struggling in many areas what would you propose for social rugby to improve? How do you do this?

TRY AND KEEP TAG RUGBY THROUGHOUT THE YEAR MIGHT HELP (maybe this happens in Dublin ) MY LOCAL CLUB PUT A LOT OF EFFORT INTO LADIES RUGHY AND WAS VERY SUCCESSFUL.

The Lost Sheep

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Change the whole age grade structure. We have a small playing base and we need to improve structures to get more playing and keep playing at a higher level. The fall off in playing numbers at 18-22 doesn't help the sport

Stan27 wrote: »

I WOULDN't KNOW TOO MUCH ABOUT AGE STRUCTURS SO I WON't COMMENT. FOR THE FALLOUT NUMBERS FOR ME AND MAJOIIRY OF RUGHY PLAYING FRIENDS INJURY AND FEAR OF GETTING THEM FOR WORK REASONS IS THE MAIN REASON WE STOPPED. FINE IN COLLEGE BUT IF YOU DONT HAVE A DESK JOB WORKING WITH A SORE SHOULDER ISNT IDEAL.

How do you change this and please use multi quote or a different colour font not capitals to make easier to read/quote...

Stan putting more AIL on tv doesn't totally help the clubs. If more games are on tv. There is less people going in the gate which affects clubs finances a lot which drops down to every level of a club right down to the gear and equipment available to the under 8s/9s
What would you actually recommend to get more people to go to club games. A tenner per person if there is 50-100 people is 1000 quid. Clubs need a lot of money to run for a year. How much more could you reduce prices though?

redmca2

As we are not alone in the NH with some thinking needing to be done for the future, a big help would be if the 6 Nations was re-vamped to include a bonus point system to encourage more tries, and any other features that would encourage more expansive scoring.

Additionally we have always placed the 6N as the pinnacle of our season (in non-WC years) so we need it to benefit us and all NH teams for that matter.

Unfortunately thanks to England & French clubs the idea of home & away fixtures every year is out of the question ....

The Lost Sheep

redmca2 wrote: »

As we are not alone in the NH with some thinking needing to be done for the future, a big help would be if the 6 Nations was re-vamped to include a bonus point system to encourage more tries, and any other features that would encourage more expansive scoring.

Additionally we have always placed the 6N as the pinnacle of our season (in non-WC years) so we need it to benefit us and all NH teams for that matter.

Unfortunately thanks to England & French clubs the idea of home & away fixtures every year is out of the question ....

Problem with putting bonus points in the 6Nations is the unevenness of home and away games in the competition etc.
What other features other than bonus points would in your opinion encourage more expansive scoring?

Sleepy

Bonus points for away matches only?

mooonpie

Sleepy wrote: »

Bonus points for away matches only?

Means some teams will have 3 opportunities for BP and some only have 2 ...

lunarhog

More effort to entice young fellas away from GAA, especially since they are becoming better conditioned and athleticly able all the time. Great strides could continue to be made in Ulster to get the catholic schools playing and eventually entering the schools competition there

The Lost Sheep

Sleepy wrote: »

Bonus points for away matches only?

How would that work in 6Nations when teams don't have same number of away matches etc...

lunarhog wrote: »

More effort to entice young fellas away from GAA, especially since they are becoming better conditioned and athleticly able all the time. Great strides could continue to be made in Ulster to get the catholic schools playing and eventually entering the schools competition there

What would you do to entice more GAA players to play rugby?
I think we should be trying to get more from the catholic schools but into the existing clubs and not just the schools competitions.

lunarhog

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

How would that work in 6Nations when teams don't have same number of away matches etc...

What would you do to entice more GAA players to play rugby?
I think we should be trying to get more from the catholic schools but into the existing clubs and not just the schools competitions.

Get them into rugby by playing more rugby at catholic schools in the first place, although there would be resistance from the GAA heads at first. Maybe it is even starting in some schools.

The Lost Sheep

lunarhog wrote: »

Get them into rugby by playing more rugby at catholic schools in the first place, although there would be resistance from the GAA heads at first. Maybe it is even starting in some schools.

Yes get more of the development officers into the schools running 8-10 week programmes once/twice a school year with the aim of getting new players into the clubs.
It has started in some schools already ....

lunarhog

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yes get more of the development officers into the schools running 8-10 week programmes once/twice a school year with the aim of getting new players into the clubs.
It has started in some schools already ....

Having former GAA players like Tommy Bowe play for Ulster definitely helps. Are there any more?

Scythica

Going by the thought of bonus points..

Would you see the potential of bringing Georgia, therefore 7 nations, bonus points allowed as even home & away games.

BUT

Skip out on one of the break weeks in the 6 nations. Therefore no further time period away from clubs, although maybe realistically adding on an extra week so 2 matches - 1 week break - 2 matches - 1 week break - 2 matches?

Just a thought, and yes I agree it would be at the expense of development of Romania etc

whatawaster

A 7's competition involving all the Pro-12 teams. With a certain % of the team being U-23.

More co-operation between provinces, including loaning players for the season where it makes sense. For example, Marty Moore or Tadhg Furlong could be more useful this season to one of the other provinces than they would to Leinster given that Mike Ross is still going strong.

hype101

What about replacing the Autumn Internationals with a more meaningful tournament alternating between the two hemispheres annually. Two groups of 5 (seeded according to 6 nations/rugby championship results) in a league with the top 2 in each group going through to a semi.

We need to play the SH teams more often and in more meaningful games.

Also, more 'all weather' pitches and a canopy over the Aviva for rain.

The Lost Sheep

Scythica wrote: »

Going by the thought of bonus points..

Would you see the potential of bringing Georgia, therefore 7 nations, bonus points allowed as even home & away games.
BUT
Skip out on one of the break weeks in the 6 nations. Therefore no further time period away from clubs, although maybe realistically adding on an extra week so 2 matches - 1 week break - 2 matches - 1 week break - 2 matches?

Just a thought, and yes I agree it would be at the expense of development of Romania etc

But will Georgia be brought in? Financially do they bring enough(Shouldn't be a metric but it will)
Don't think adding bonus points would make so many changes

whatawaster wrote: »

A 7's competition involving all the Pro-12 teams. With a certain % of the team being U-23.

More co-operation between provinces, including loaning players for the season where it makes sense. For example, Marty Moore or Tadhg Furlong could be more useful this season to one of the other provinces than they would to Leinster given that Mike Ross is still going strong.

When would you play this 7s competition? Pre season is about only time it would or else at the end of the season
More cooperation between provinces should happen with Nucifora etc

hype101 wrote: »

What about replacing the Autumn Internationals with a more meaningful tournament alternating between the two hemispheres annually. Two groups of 5 (seeded according to 6 nations/rugby championship results) in a league with the top 2 in each group going through to a semi.

We need to play the SH teams more often and in more meaningful games.

Also, more 'all weather' pitches and a canopy over the Aviva for rain.

I don't think having mini world cups without tier 2 sides is needed. We already are playing the SH sides in June and November. We don't need "more meaningful" games.
Who will finance these all weather pitches?

shuffol

Is there enough incentives for young players to move provinces aside from simply better chance of gametime, perhaps some sort of performance based financial incentive may help some players up sticks from the comfy confines of their home provinces where they are close to their family and friends.

I think there are improvements happening that should reap some benefits in years to come, there's a regular stream of players who from the Leinster underage setup joining Connacht and Ulster academies in the last few years.

Many more players coming from clubs in the Leinster underage setup also, 5 of the starting pack for the U19s in a recent game against Worcester came from club sides.

The Lost Sheep

shuffol wrote: »

Is there enough incentives for young players to move provinces aside from simply better chance of gametime, perhaps some sort of performance based financial incentive may help some players up sticks from the comfy confines of their home provinces where they are close to their family and friends.

I think there are improvements happening that should reap some benefits in years to come, there's a regular stream of players who from the Leinster underage setup joining Connacht and Ulster academies in the last few years.

Many more players coming from clubs in the Leinster underage setup also, 5 of the starting pack for the U19s in a recent game against Worcester came from club sides.

And it was similar during the interpro series with 4/5 minimum starting the games against other provinces
There probably is not enough incentives for players to move but if players don't want to go its hard to make them especially if it means changing course and availability of chosen 3rd level course etc

Clubs are the future and there will be more "making it" who come from the clubs system who never attend a non exempt school.......

Magico Gonzalez

We probably don't need to over react. There is a lot more that we are doing right than we are doing wrong.

We need a bit more depth, we need to make sure we don't have international quality players not playing for their clubs (ulster backs & leinster back rows) when they could be playing for any one of 4 strong provinces.

Fez101

Here's my pie in the sky idea. Move pro rugby to summer like rugby league, harder pitches should speed up the game, improving fitness and skill levels. It would also and sync the two hemisphere seasons and we could still leave the 6 Nations and Autumn international were they are, to top and tail the season. Even more radical, formation of a pan European club/provincial league based on an NFL type divisional and conference system, keeps local rivalries, but increases intensity.

jacothelad

lunarhog wrote: »

More effort to entice young fellas away from GAA, especially since they are becoming better conditioned and athleticly able all the time. Great strides could continue to be made in Ulster to get the catholic schools playing and eventually entering the schools competition there

Out of the last c.200 representative games from Ireland schools, U18, U19, U20, Ladies, Club, Wolfhounds and full Ireland internationals only 1 has been played in Northern Ireland. There isn't a hope in hell of raising the profile of the game in new areas especially CCMS schools when even the IRFU don't give a sh1t about it and break their very on aims and objectives. The vast, vast majority of all representative rugby games are played in Leinster within a few miles of Lansdowne Road. If not in Leinster then in Munster either in Thomond, DuBarry park or Cork. When even the organising body shows contempt for the game in Ulster why does anyone think it will improve? How do you think people here responded when the IRFU decided that N.I. fans would have to pay to watch the team on Sky while fans in the rest of the island didn't? Sticking 2 fingers up at one third of the population of the island was particularly contemptible.

hype101

Whacky idea number 2.

Set up a recruitment drive for final year college football players with Irish ancestry/granny rule who don't quite make the NFL. Their sporting life basically ends at 22/23/24 and there are some amazing athletes who don't make it to the NFL. There is that little thing of learning rugby obviously, and fitness might be an issue. There's no shortage of reasons not to do it really.

Sad state of affairs that this is the best wackey idea that I can come up with but I honestly think we are in real trouble in terms of developing second rows. Some powerful retrained tight-ends might not be the worst idea.

davegrohl48

hype101 wrote: »

Whacky idea number 2.

Set up a recruitment drive for final year college football players with Irish ancestry/granny rule who don't quite make the NFL. Their sporting life basically ends at 22/23/24 and there are some amazing athletes who don't make it to the NFL. There is that little thing of learning rugby obviously, and fitness might be an issue. There's no shortage of reasons not to do it really.

Sad state of affairs that this is the best wackey idea that I can come up with but I honestly think we are in real trouble in terms of developing second rows. Some powerful retrained tight-ends might not be the worst idea.

Eddie OSullivan was trialling ex college and NFL players. He said plenty of them had the fitness required.
Why the need for 6'7"+ guys at lock is something Iv been wondering lately.
- Slower with less agility
- Limited leg drive in the scrum
- Limited ball carrying
Cant we easily add scrum power, ball carrying and still be fine on lineouts with likes of Ruddock moved to lock. The props are initially properly square now so Id rather have the much squatter Ruddock providing the shove than someone 6'7"+. Argentina have one lock only 6'3" or 6'4" and he can run. Similar we could use the powerful Conan as that type of lock.

The Lost Sheep

Fez101 wrote: »

Here's my pie in the sky idea. Move pro rugby to summer like rugby league, harder pitches should speed up the game, improving fitness and skill levels. It would also and sync the two hemisphere seasons and we could still leave the 6 Nations and Autumn international were they are, to top and tail the season. Even more radical, formation of a pan European club/provincial league based on an NFL type divisional and conference system, keeps local rivalries, but increases intensity.

Wont happen and shouldn't happen. We would lose out on support/tv with GAA championships on. If Munster are playing a pro12game and there is big Munster hurling championship games on we would lose out on attendees...

hype101 wrote: »

Whacky idea number 2.

Set up a recruitment drive for final year college football players with Irish ancestry/granny rule who don't quite make the NFL. Their sporting life basically ends at 22/23/24 and there are some amazing athletes who don't make it to the NFL. There is that little thing of learning rugby obviously, and fitness might be an issue. There's no shortage of reasons not to do it really.

Sad state of affairs that this is the best wackey idea that I can come up with but I honestly think we are in real trouble in terms of developing second rows. Some powerful retrained tight-ends might not be the worst idea.

We don't do enough to get guys who already play rugby and are from Ireland near being able to play pro so why look elsewhere before fixing those issues.

thebaz

I'm a leinster fan, 2 years ago I along with many was spouting on about the Barca like dream academy - but how many of those coming of the production line the past 5 years have been international ready ? Why aren't Murphy, Madigan, Ryan etc really at international level (high end) - there many more just struggling between Leinster A and Leinster reserves - and yet, many of the Argentian team were around 22 and 23 - many of the All Blacks and Aussies too are young , why are the young Irish guys not ready at this level ?

Don't get me wrong , the Leinster academy is great, but how about an Irish academy for the real elite , and embed them in Irish squad - I believe rugby is more and more a young persons game.

shuffol

thebaz wrote: »

I'm a leinster fan, 2 years ago I along with many was spouting on about the Barca like dream academy - but how many of those coming of the production line the past 5 years have been international ready ? Why aren't Murphy, Madigan, Ryan etc really at international level (high end) - there many more just struggling between Leinster A and Leinster reserves - and yet, many of the Argentian team were around 22 and 23 - many of the All Blacks and Aussies too are young , why are the young Irish guys not ready at this level ?

Don't get me wrong , the Leinster academy is great, but how about an Irish academy for the real elite , and embed them in Irish squad - I believe rugby is more and more a young persons game.

Madigan never really demonstrated that he had the nuts and bolts of 10 play down, don't think there was much expectation of him.

Ryan has been affected by injuries and now needs to move on.

Murphy is a good player but don't think any saw him as that big a talent. He's a utility backrow so hasn't been able to settle on a position and hasn't started big games consistently for Leinster, he'll turn in to a really good player but I think will be a later bloomer like Henry and settle down at 7.

Current Leinster youngsters that I'd be somewhat hopeful of becoming good test players are Bryan Byrne, Molony(eventually), Leavy, Conan, L.McGrath, Ross Byrne, Ringrose, Kelleher. However it's very hard for a lot of these players to find an opportunity to make a breakthrough.

pickarooney

Fez101 wrote: »

Here's my pie in the sky idea. Move pro rugby to summer like rugby league, harder pitches should speed up the game, improving fitness and skill levels. It would also and sync the two hemisphere seasons and we could still leave the 6 Nations and Autumn international were they are, to top and tail the season. Even more radical, formation of a pan European club/provincial league based on an NFL type divisional and conference system, keeps local rivalries, but increases intensity.

But it rains pretty much every single day in summer in Ireland. I've never seen a pitch that could be described a hard there.

Scythica

Gain a closer working relationship (already happening I think?) with London Irish and perhaps have Nuficora do whatever he does in regards to getting some players good gametime there?


Make an X Factor like tv show called Irelands next top *position* where BOD, Ferris, ROG & POC put young scallions through their paces and the winner gets a contract with a province

Mehapoy

Maybe we need some sort of a draft to balance the number of talented kids coming into each province, for example reserve the best 5 each year coming through the Leinster academy for Leinster, the rest each province would 'bid' for based on need eg Munster are short at centre then they can get a centre coming through at Ulster who may be over stocked,
Also try to formalise relations with oz or nz clubs to make it easier for players willing to play for a year over there, john Hayes put down his rapid development to playing in nz for a year...

QuinDixie

1. buy 2023 world cup if necessary, than
2. buy london irish
3. understand that clubs thriving are key to everything
4. stop the excuses
5. stop the trend of imports - lets have the pride to do with our own
6. fast track all players who excel at junior world cups
7. stop obsession with set pieces.
8. make the provinces swap players, but the irfu has a veto on all transfers from connaught
9. stop promotion of irish coaches who are plainly not ready
10.stop playing players out of position, its as successful as league converts

Stan27

QuinDixie wrote: »

1. buy 2023 world cup if necessary, than
2. buy london irish
3. understand that clubs thriving are key to everything
4. stop the excuses
5. stop the trend of imports - lets have the pride to do with our own
6. fast track all players who excel at junior world cups
7. stop obsession with set pieces.
8. make the provinces swap players, but the irfu has a veto on all transfers from connaught
9. stop promotion of irish coaches who are plainly not ready
10.stop playing players out of position, its as successful as league converts

Number 8 is something I strongly agree with.

Barbaric Gentleman

We need to encourage a few plane loads of fine big Fijian women to come live in Ireland and mate with the local athletes to breed some athletic sorts that can be installed in rugby academies as soon as they can walk. A long term plan and a bit Nazi-ish for sure, but hey-ho, we might be able to get to a World Cup semi at the end of it!

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

I'm a leinster fan, 2 years ago I along with many was spouting on about the Barca like dream academy - but how many of those coming of the production line the past 5 years have been international ready? Why aren't Murphy, Madigan, Ryan etc really at international level (high end) - there many more just struggling between Leinster A and Leinster reserves - and yet, many of the Argentian team were around 22 and 23 - many of the All Blacks and Aussies too are young, why are the young Irish guys not ready at this level?

Don't get me wrong, the Leinster academy is great, but how about an Irish academy for the real elite, and embed them in Irish squad - I believe rugby is more and more a young persons game.

Murphy, Madigan are not good enough yet and are behind Irish internationals at their province so don't get to play enough of the biggest games for their province... Why are you just focusing on Leinster?
Many other countries pro sides have different role to in Ireland to players at a younger age. The pro sides access to players is different. Schools and clubs power is different here.
We have 4 provincial academies. We don't need another one. The irish squad only train for certain periods of the year. Academy players get involved with them depending on need. When you say embed these irish guys in the irish squad what do you want done exactly?

Scythica wrote: »

Gain a closer working relationship (already happening I think?) with London Irish and perhaps have Nuficora do whatever he does in regards to getting some players good gametime there?

Make an X Factor like tv show called Irelands next top *position* where BOD, Ferris, ROG & POC put young scallions through their paces and the winner gets a contract with a province

Why? London Irish are an RFU club. In the English system. There is some irish players in LI but we wouldn't have any control so why?

Mehapoy wrote: »

Maybe we need some sort of a draft to balance the number of talented kids coming into each province, for example reserve the best 5 each year coming through the Leinster academy for Leinster, the rest each province would 'bid' for based on need eg Munster are short at centre then they can get a centre coming through at Ulster who may be over stocked,
Also try to formalise relations with oz or nz clubs to make it easier for players willing to play for a year over there, john Hayes put down his rapid development to playing in nz for a year...

Draft isn't needed. Provinces can already look to add players to their academy who played all their age grade rugby elsewhere before they join. Ultan Dillane is from Tralee. Wasn't wanted by Munster so joined Connacht. Sean McNulty grew up and went to school in Munster, schooled in Rockwell. Went to UCD and then joined Leinster academy etc etc

QuinDixie wrote: »

1. buy 2023 world cup if necessary, than
2. buy london irish
3. understand that clubs thriving are key to everything
4. stop the excuses
5. stop the trend of imports - lets have the pride to do with our own
6. fast track all players who excel at junior world cups
7. stop obsession with set pieces.
8. make the provinces swap players, but the irfu has a veto on all transfers from connaught
9. stop promotion of irish coaches who are plainly not ready
10.stop playing players out of position, its as successful as league converts

Who would buy LI? Money better off on developing and using money on projects in Ireland. Buying LI would be a waste of resources
Trend of imports? We only have 4/5 per squad. That's needed.
Fast-tracking players isn't always possible for variety of reasons.
Most of what you propose is just rubbish. Stop the excuses.... :rolleyes:

QuinDixie

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Murphy, Madigan are not good enough yet and are behind Irish internationals at their province so don't get to play enough of the biggest games for their province... Why are you just focusing on Leinster?
Many other countries pro sides have different role to in Ireland to players at a younger age. The pro sides access to players is different. Schools and clubs power is different here.
We have 4 provincial academies. We don't need another one. The irish squad only train for certain periods of the year. Academy players get involved with them depending on need. When you say embed these irish guys in the irish squad what do you want done exactly?


Why? London Irish are an RFU club. In the English system. There is some irish players in LI but we wouldn't have any control so why?

Draft isn't needed. Provinces can already look to add players to their academy who played all their age grade rugby elsewhere before they join. Ultan Dillane is from Tralee. Wasn't wanted by Munster so joined Connacht. Sean McNulty grew up and went to school in Munster, schooled in Rockwell. Went to UCD and then joined Leinster academy etc etc

Who would buy LI? Money better off on developing and using money on projects in Ireland. Buying LI would be a waste of resources
Trend of imports? We only have 4/5 per squad. That's needed.
Fast-tracking players isn't always possible for variety of reasons.
Most of what you propose is just rubbish. Stop the excuses.... :rolleyes:

Well if we stopped the imports we could start the fast tracking.
stop the excuses was aimed at fans like you too.
As for London Irish, get OBrien and McIllroy to buy it with the IRFU.
Another province, playing in the english league,its just an idea.

I know the world cup has hurt many fans, reality bites.
The Argentine result was so brutal, so heart breaking, some fans are so traumatised they see any call for change as an attack on rugby in this country.

user name is half right, drop the lost and baa

The Lost Sheep

QuinDixie wrote: »

Well if we stopped the imports we could start the fast tracking.
stop the excuses was aimed at fans like you too.
As for London Irish, get OBrien and McIllroy to buy it with the IRFU.
Another province, playing in the english league,its just an idea.

I know the world cup has hurt many fans, reality bites.
The Argentine result was so brutal, so heart breaking, some fans are so traumatised they see any call for change as an attack on rugby in this country.

user name is half right, drop the lost and baa

Signing players who are not irish eligible has helped the provinces and the sport. Putting an outright ban on them is taking a backwards step for development
Fans like me? What is your issue with me.
Yeah because OBrien/McIlroy are going to do that. IRFU wouldn't be allowed have control of a team like that in RFU and we would just be getting into trouble with PRL etc and it would be a mess.
As for your petty go at me in the last sentence :rolleyes: you clearly haven't a clue about me if you think I don't want/see a need for change in rugby in the country....

m@cc@

mooonpie wrote: »

Means some teams will have 3 opportunities for BP and some only have 2 ...

All teams have an opportunity for a bonus point in every match. It was used in the Rugby Championship this year.

Scythica

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Murphy, Madigan are not good enough yet and are behind Irish internationals at their province so don't get to play enough of the biggest games for their province... Why are you just focusing on Leinster?
Many other countries pro sides have different role to in Ireland to players at a younger age. The pro sides access to players is different. Schools and clubs power is different here.
We have 4 provincial academies. We don't need another one. The irish squad only train for certain periods of the year. Academy players get involved with them depending on need. When you say embed these irish guys in the irish squad what do you want done exactly?


Why? London Irish are an RFU club. In the English system. There is some irish players in LI but we wouldn't have any control so why?


Most of what you propose is just rubbish. Stop the excuses.... :rolleyes:

Surely you've just answered the boldened with what you said above it... We don't have to buy London Irish, but given they're under new management who recently said they want to engage more with the Irish in London surely a logicial head would lead to a suggestion of maybe some more Irish players could play there?!

Couple of guys who are struggling for game time here, can go there, play in higher profile matches than off the bench against Zebre. See where it goes. Is it going to lead to instand international ready players? Maybe not, but it's not going to harm the likes of Sam Arnold, or VDF to have a season or so there if there's a better chance of them clocking up some gametime. Why is that a bad suggestion?

Namechecks and use of LI are completely arbitrary, the point is by having another place for players to play, (anywhere!) to assist development has got to be a good thing more often than not.

irishbucsfan

Scythica wrote: »

Surely you've just answered the boldened with what you said above it... We don't have to buy London Irish, but given they're under new management who recently said they want to engage more with the Irish in London surely a logicial head would lead to a suggestion of maybe some more Irish players could play there?!

Couple of guys who are struggling for game time here, can go there, play in higher profile matches than off the bench against Zebre. See where it goes. Is it going to lead to instand international ready players? Maybe not, but it's not going to harm the likes of Sam Arnold, or VDF to have a season or so there if there's a better chance of them clocking up some gametime. Why is that a bad suggestion?

Namechecks and use of LI are completely arbitrary, the point is by having another place for players to play, (anywhere!) to assist development has got to be a good thing more often than not.

London Irish can't make players available to the IRFU for training camps, so they'd be very rarely available to us if they went over there.

It'd mean the only players worth sending over there are guys who aren't going to be involved with Ireland any time soon and who we don't want around for training camps (remember a lot of young guys like JVDF end up going to those IRFU training camps to learn).

There are already a few guys over there. The likes of Eoin Griffin and Eoin Sherriff. There's no real value in sending players there over any other Premiership team though really.

The Lost Sheep

Scythica wrote: »

Surely you've just answered the boldened with what you said above it... We don't have to buy London Irish, but given they're under new management who recently said they want to engage more with the Irish in London surely a logicial head would lead to a suggestion of maybe some more Irish players could play there?!

Couple of guys who are struggling for game time here, can go there, play in higher profile matches than off the bench against Zebre. See where it goes. Is it going to lead to instand international ready players? Maybe not, but it's not going to harm the likes of Sam Arnold, or VDF to have a season or so there if there's a better chance of them clocking up some gametime. Why is that a bad suggestion?

Namechecks and use of LI are completely arbitrary, the point is by having another place for players to play, (anywhere!) to assist development has got to be a good thing more often than not.

We have regular training camps outside of the time periods where PRL/privately owned clubs have to release the players so we wouldn't have access to them bar inside international weeks. Sam Arnold was involved in Harlequins academy set up before he came to Ireland. He had the option of staying there but chose to come here. Really doubt he'd go over again when he's in set up here.
There isn't much value in sending guys over

Scythica

irishbucsfan wrote: »

London Irish can't make players available to the IRFU for training camps, so they'd be very rarely available to us if they went over there.

It'd mean the only players worth sending over there are guys who aren't going to be involved with Ireland any time soon and who we don't want around for training camps (remember a lot of young guys like JVDF end up going to those IRFU training camps to learn).

There are already a few guys over there. The likes of Eoin Griffin and Eoin Sherriff. There's no real value in sending players there over any other Premiership team though really.

I completely see your point and it's obviously a very valid one. I just feel that personally more players getting *substantial* game time, even if its just to accelerate their development by a season or so, isn't a bad thing.

Realistically do you think a player would learn more in a new environment (allbeit hardly the same as going to SH for a few years) or more in a week or so in an IRFU camp? Normally it's only the Leinster fringe players in the camps due to proximity right? I could be wrong though.

A lot of the time they can't release players because they (naturally) don't want to lose them. I'm not sure how the The only reason I suggest LI is because if their wish leads to the potential of wanting more Irish players there, maybe they could be more accommodating in terms of training camp release. I don't think the PRL would see releasing some fringe players to a training camp the same as releasing North from Northampton to play Aus.

Also from a quick google of PRL Player release the first document says it the rules run out this season? Perhaps it may change a bit. Unlikely though.

Magico Gonzalez

shuffol wrote: »

Madigan never really demonstrated that he had the nuts and bolts of 10 play down, don't think there was much expectation of him.

Ryan has been affected by injuries and now needs to move on.

Murphy is a good player but don't think any saw him as that big a talent. He's a utility backrow so hasn't been able to settle on a position and hasn't started big games consistently for Leinster, he'll turn in to a really good player but I think will be a later bloomer like Henry and settle down at 7.

Current Leinster youngsters that I'd be somewhat hopeful of becoming good test players are Bryan Byrne, Molony(eventually), Leavy, Conan, L.McGrath, Ross Byrne, Ringrose, Kelleher. However it's very hard for a lot of these players to find an opportunity to make a breakthrough.

That's on the IRFU. Need to spread these players around and get some to Connacht, Munster, Ulster were there is a gap.

Magico Gonzalez

As much as I am happy to have Payne at Ulster I worry about the quick fix nature of "project players" he is not going to figure in the next WC. Get him out of the side and get young Irish players in.

Scythica

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

We have regular training camps outside of the time periods where PRL/privately owned clubs have to release the players so we wouldn't have access to them bar inside international weeks. Sam Arnold was involved in Harlequins academy set up before he came to Ireland. He had the option of staying there but chose to come here. Really doubt he'd go over again when he's in set up here.
There isn't much value in sending guys over

Like I said namechecks aren't suggestions just used for reference. Sam is just an example of someone who is behind 3? Irish capped centres in Ulster alone, then for the moment McCloskey and perhaps Olding when he's back. Will he learn? Sure. Will he get lots of game time? Not as much as a move elsewhere might.

Obviously the player would have to be willing to move, not suggesting that we force guys to go.

irishbucsfan

Scythica wrote: »

I completely see your point and it's obviously a very valid one. I just feel that personally more players getting *substantial* game time, even if its just to accelerate their development by a season or so, isn't a bad thing.

Realistically do you think a player would learn more in a new environment (allbeit hardly the same as going to SH for a few years) or more in a week or so in an IRFU camp? Normally it's only the Leinster fringe players in the camps due to proximity right? I could be wrong though.

A lot of the time they can't release players because they (naturally) don't want to lose them. I'm not sure how the The only reason I suggest LI is because if their wish leads to the potential of wanting more Irish players there, maybe they could be more accommodating in terms of training camp release. I don't think the PRL would see releasing some fringe players to a training camp the same as releasing North from Northampton to play Aus.

Also from a quick google of PRL Player release the first document says it the rules run out this season? Perhaps it may change a bit. Unlikely though.

London Irish wouldn't be allowed to release players to Ireland even if they wanted to release them to every single camp. It's against PRL rules. The reason those rules expire this year is because PRL's agreement with the RFU expires this year,which is something we'll hear about a lot more over the next few months. They won't be negotiating anything with the IRFU.

I'm sure playing in a new environment would be more beneficial to a player than 1 week at an IRFU training camp, but it's more about the long term benefits of having the guys available to play for Ireland if needed.

Scythica

irishbucsfan wrote: »

London Irish wouldn't be allowed to release players to Ireland even if they wanted to release them to every single camp. It's against PRL rules. The reason those rules expire this year is because PRL's agreement with the RFU expires this year,which is something we'll hear about a lot more over the next few months. They won't be negotiating anything with the IRFU.

I'm sure playing in a new environment would be more beneficial to a player than 1 week at an IRFU training camp, but it's more about the long term benefits of having the guys available to play for Ireland if needed.

Ok so it's completely rule based and not to do with clubs wishes, that's my mistake and I hold my hands up. It doesn't change the point however.

Guys who realistically aren't within an arse's roar of starting for Ireland in the next few seasons are going to benefit from meaningful game time elsewhere. They come back, still young(ish), more experienced and start challenging for starting berths in our teams. Rinse and repeat.

We're talking about planning for the future here, this is long term. We'd be talking at least 3 seasons before the system would be bedded and evaluated.

Example: (and please don't use this to berate it's just an example)

Steffon Armitage was a fairly good to average player while in England. Look what he's become since playing with higher calibre competition, could maybe argue the same for Abendonon.

You could argue that our field test of this right now is seeing how Hanrahan gets on with Saints.

irishbucsfan

Scythica wrote: »

Ok so it's completely rule based and not to do with clubs wishes, that's my mistake and I hold my hands up. It doesn't change the point however.

Guys who realistically aren't within an arse's roar of starting for Ireland in the next few seasons are going to benefit from meaningful game time elsewhere. They come back, still young(ish), more experienced and start challenging for starting berths in our teams. Rinse and repeat.

We're talking about planning for the future here, this is long term. We'd be talking at least 3 seasons before the system would be bedded and evaluated.

Example: (and please don't use this to berate it's just an example)

Steffon Armitage was a fairly good to average player while in England. Look what he's become since playing with higher calibre competition, could maybe argue the same for Abendonon.

You could argue that our field test of this right now is seeing how Hanrahan gets on with Saints.

But if we're talking about those guys, why not send them to Connacht? And it's not even just Connacht any more, there are weaknesses at all the provinces that could be filled from elsewhere (Ulster's back row and Leinster's midfield).

At the moment we have an imbalance in how we're distributing talent within Ireland. Once we've sorted that out we can look abroad.

Armitage and Abendanon were excellent players before they left England by the way, that's why Clermont and Toulon wanted them. It's kind of different talking about guys who are moving to teams like Clermont/Toulon.

The Lost Sheep

Scythica wrote: »

I completely see your point and it's obviously a very valid one. I just feel that personally more players getting *substantial* game time, even if its just to accelerate their development by a season or so, isn't a bad thing.

Realistically do you think a player would learn more in a new environment (allbeit hardly the same as going to SH for a few years) or more in a week or so in an IRFU camp? Normally it's only the Leinster fringe players in the camps due to proximity right? I could be wrong though.

A lot of the time they can't release players because they (naturally) don't want to lose them. I'm not sure how the The only reason I suggest LI is because if their wish leads to the potential of wanting more Irish players there, maybe they could be more accommodating in terms of training camp release. I don't think the PRL would see releasing some fringe players to a training camp the same as releasing North from Northampton to play Aus.

Also from a quick google of PRL Player release the first document says it the rules run out this season? Perhaps it may change a bit. Unlikely though.

It isn't normally only Leinster academy(not fringe) players in camp its where the camp is.
What do you see as substantial game time?. PRL sides cant release players as they want to use them for games. They cant be more accommodating in relation to player release as there is a league wide agreement that they would be breaking. The agreement is running out this season but the changes wont help IRFU it'll be done with RFU for English eligible players not any others

Scythica wrote: »

Like I said namechecks aren't suggestions just used for reference. Sam is just an example of someone who is behind 3? Irish capped centres in Ulster alone, then for the moment McCloskey and perhaps Olding when he's back. Will he learn? Sure. Will he get lots of game time? Not as much as a move elsewhere might.

Obviously the player would have to be willing to move, not suggesting that we force guys to go.

He will learn and its better for irish rugby that there is movement between the provinces not looking abroad.

Scythica wrote: »

Ok so it's completely rule based and not to do with clubs wishes, that's my mistake and I hold my hands up. It doesn't change the point however.

Guys who realistically aren't within an arse's roar of starting for Ireland in the next few seasons are going to benefit from meaningful game time elsewhere. They come back, still young(ish), more experienced and start challenging for starting berths in our teams. Rinse and repeat.

We're talking about planning for the future here, this is long term. We'd be talking at least 3 seasons before the system would be bedded and evaluated.

Example: (and please don't use this to berate it's just an example)

Steffon Armitage was a fairly good to average player while in England. Look what he's become since playing with higher calibre competition, could maybe argue the same for Abendonon.

You could argue that our field test of this right now is seeing how Hanrahan gets on with Saints.

Why not send these players to Connacht? Fix the imbalances within the irish sides before looking to sides controlled by outside voices

Scythica

I completely support the swapping of players between provinces. I've no doubt that a Leinster BR in exchange for a Ulster centre is a great idea. Isn't this is what Nuficora is for? We should/need be seeing more of this as time goes on. All I was saying (maybe not as succintly as I could have) is that having another team(s) out of the 4 provinces is still going to be a good option for developing talent across the board.

And I'm sorry, we arent bloomin Cromwell, this isn't a "to hell or Connacht" scenario. Variety is the spice of life and having players play to these nasty outside voices can bring new experiences to just remaining in the PRO12

QuinDixie

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Signing players who are not irish eligible has helped the provinces and the sport. Putting an outright ban on them is taking a backwards step for development
Fans like me? What is your issue with me.
Yeah because OBrien/McIlroy are going to do that. IRFU wouldn't be allowed have control of a team like that in RFU and we would just be getting into trouble with PRL etc and it would be a mess.
As for your petty go at me in the last sentence :rolleyes: you clearly haven't a clue about me if you think I don't want/see a need for change in rugby in the country....

I know you like roll eyes.

Rugby fans think like this
1. club
2. country

So I say STOP the imports now as it affects our national team.

The rest of your post is pure rubbish.