RWC Quarter Final: New Zealand Vs France; Sat Oct 17th 8pm

irishbucsfan

Savea isn't a new arrival. He played against us in 2013. He scored a nice try from a kick through but apart from that certainly didn't look particularly unstoppable.

Coburger

This thrashing is a blessing in disguise. An honourable defeat would have been a catastrophy. But this modern-day Waterloo will demand a strong reaction. I call for a re-vo-lu-tion !!!!!![/QUOTE]

How do you think a coach like Schmidt would do at France?

davegrohl48

Coburger wrote: »

This thrashing is a blessing in disguise. An honourable defeat would have been a catastrophy. But this modern-day Waterloo will demand a strong reaction. I call for a re-vo-lu-tion !!!!!!

How do you think a coach like Schmidt would do at France?[/quote]
Badly, the French players are work shy.

nehe milner skudder

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Savea isn't a new arrival. He played against us in 2013. He scored a nice try from a kick through but apart from that certainly didn't look particularly unstoppable.

He scored a hat trick against Ireland on his debut

irishbucsfan

nehe milner skudder wrote: »

He scored a hat trick against Ireland on his debut

Yes, and New Zealand beat us 60-0 on the same tour. And Italy beat us the following spring. Not really much of a valid example given the state of our squad at that time.

rrpc

iroced wrote: »

Something I've been suggesting from before the last RWC is to make it a TOP 20 with 2 groups of 10 seeded teams. 18 games in the regular season instead of 26. Add proper Quarter finals and let's say we make the economy of 7 weeks for the national squad. There was a stat showing that, since the last RWC final, Dusautoir played the equivalent of 3 more full seasons than McCaw :eek:! When will we face reality?!

This is the only real solution for the league's demands for more games. It's impossible to keep going to the well and demanding more and more from the players. The result is a horrible situation with more and more injuries and less and less 'rugby'. It could also do away with the ridiculous 'match de barrage' system and have something meaningful between the two top leagues.

iroced wrote: »

Second. Long-term. Back in the rugby school. The federation & the league should agree on trying and changing the rugby education from a very young age. It would benefit to everyone. Clubs generating more technically skilled players should take better advantage of them when they'll turn professional.
So maybe at a young age, play more for fun, develop the technical skills first and not only focus on winning your week-end game. We have the same problem in football. Our young teams almost always beat Spain. Because we're working more physically, are tougher and go more for the win. But when and where do we develop the technical skills? Most of our best players did not come from the French system (e.g. Griezman). While they just play their enjoyable and technical gamestyle. When they turn professional they always beat us.

I remember listening to a piece on the radio (could have been 'off the ball') about the Belgian system where the young footballers are trained in academies where they don't play a competitive match until they are eighteen (or thereabouts, I can't remember exactly). The result is a complete immersion in the skills of the game from a very young age until they are complete footballers in every sense. It's no surprise therefore that Belgian footballers are now some of the most sought after in leagues around Europe and are very skillful.

pickarooney

nehe milner skudder wrote: »

He scored a hat trick against Ireland on his debut

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-SN4vinaw

It was a reasonable effort. Question marks over his tackling, speed, reading of the game, his step and his finishing obviously, and it was obvious he needed to bulk up for the international game.
A generous 5/10 as he was understandably nervous.

rrpc

iroced wrote: »

PSA's not the (main) problem. Our players are not the (main) problem. Top 14 is not the (main) problem. Toulon does not ungive a sh*te about the national squad.

I just have to take issue with you on this. Just a bit, mind

Clearly skills have a huge part to play in how French players can play rugby. However, coaching is not just about skills, it's about mindset and systems. France had no systems to fall back on last night. They played with fear because they had no idea how to even contain New Zealand. After the first half, they had missed 18 tackles. This isn't rocket science, they are professionals and at the very least should know how to tackle and how to work a defensive system. Neither did they trust each other in defense; how many times did we see them bite in and leave space for an All Black to run through?

It's not easy to defend against an offloading game, but if you don't trust the man inside you, you're always going to leave yourself open to a quick offload. New Zealand couldn't believe their luck. At the start they put the pressure on France and France caved. This was in the first five minutes, it was a long day at the office after that.

aimee1

Michalak has announced his international retirement.

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

Michalak has announced his international retirement.

Looked like he was already retired before kick off yesterday. Watching back, I'm not convinced he hurt himself clearing, looked to me like he made a massive error and just lost his bottle.

Pape retired too, decided to pursue his acting career full time.

CurryFlavoured

Savea is a beast and a great finisher but I have seen him have quiet games. Chop him down low and early and avoid 1 v 1s as much as you can. NMS on the other hand, that step! His pace, agility and offloading is ridiculous, I rate him higher than Savea based on this WC. They probably have the 2 best wingers in the tournament though.

Journeyman_1

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

Savea is a beast and a great finisher but I have seen him have quiet games. Chop him down low and early and avoid 1 v 1s as much as you can. NMS on the other hand, that step! His pace, agility and offloading is ridiculous, I rate him higher than Savea based on this WC. They probably have the 2 best wingers in the tournament though.

And Naholo in reserve!

stadedublinois

I’m not going to quote all the posts that are relevant, but here are my general observations.

The main cause of the score (if not the outcome) yesterday for me is PSA and by extension the FFR who kept him in place, the whole Serge Blanco thing was just bizarre. We were incapable of winning kick-offs, the scrum and line-out were a shambles. PSA put everything on the physical preparation but it looks like we barely touched the ball during the 3 months and weren’t even able to match up physically. The players obviously had little confidence in PSA.

There are obviously some issues that need to be resolved with the Top 14 but the amount of foreign players in the league is not really one of them. Toulon is often referred to, but they are a slight anomaly as the Armitage brothers and a couple of Georgians are JIFF. The JIFF rules are probably sufficient and anyway you can’t limit the number of foreigners because of EU law. You could limit the number of non-EU players but that would probably lead to increased offers for other European players.

Slightly off topic but with all the discussion around improving Tier 2 nations, it is important to note that the Top 14 and Pro D2 play an important role giving their players the opportunity to play professional rugby. I remember looking at the beginning of the tournament and there are roughly the same amount of players at the world cup playing in France (mainly top 2 divisions but some lower down too) as there are from the Pro 12.

The major issue is the calendar. Top 14 teams play at least 32 games a year with usually at least 5 “doublons” (matches during November internationals and 6 nations) plus 10/11(??) internationals. Summer internationals often clash with part of the finals meaning that the players from the best teams can’t go on the tours, so they can't be used to set a gameplan. It also means that there is less preparation time during the 6 nations and players are released back to their clubs during the breaks in the 6 nations (they don’t always play though). This also increases the demand for southern hemisphere players to cover for internationals during the 6 nations.

In short the players play too much rugby (and their game time isn't managed with the internationals as the main goal). This is clear from the way some teams approach European competitions, for example, last year Stade Français didn’t register numerous players like Parisse for the Challenge Cup. Not playing in Europe allowed us to be fresher for the finals.

Not sure how to fix this, there are some suggestions of going to 12, but don’t know how if all the clubs would agree. Personally I would get rid of the finals and have it as normal league system, but the money brought in by the finals make this unlikely.

Iroced’s system sounds interesting. How would the teams be split?

There needs to be more communication and compromise between the clubs and the national team (hopefully Novès will help with this).

CurryFlavoured

Journeyman_1 wrote: »

And Naholo in reserve!

Israel Dagg didn't even make the squad ffs! He'd probably start fullback for nearly every other nation.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Badly, the French players are work shy.

I think their reaction to Sexton when at Racing points to this, a bit at least. Your #10 controls the game, or should at least, if he's shouting at you because you're not perfect the correct reaction is to be perfect, not to whinge about it.

ThisRegard

Deleted User wrote: »

Looked like he was already retired before kick off yesterday. Watching back, I'm not convinced he hurt himself clearing, looked to me like he made a massive error and just lost his bottle.

Pape retired too, decided to pursue his acting career full time.

He actually injured himself in a ruck or maul before that kick, you could see he was hurt for a bit before hand and the last thing he would have wanted was the ball that time for the clearance.

aimee1

ThisRegard wrote: »

He actually injured himself in a ruck or maul before that kick, you could see he was hurt for a bit before hand and the last thing he would have wanted was the ball that time for the clearance.

Woodward on utv said after he should have passed the ball on instead of kicking.they highlighted him limping from the previous ruck

pickarooney

The Guardian reckon Nakataici had a good game..

wp_rathead

pickarooney wrote: »

The Guardian reckon Nakataici had a good game..

For New Zealand he did

Bazzo

pickarooney wrote: »

Bowe got as badly bounced by the collossus that is Johnny May, for heaven's sake. Like Earls against Gear that time.

Edit: Michalak has retired from intentional rugby. No shock there. Papé gone as well.

You're honestly going to use one of Bowe's worst performances to date as a fair comparison? I was just using him as an example anyway, the point I was trying to make that if someone actually TRIES to tackle Savea, it can be done. Nakaitaci was pretty disgraceful on that wing last night.

Like I said before, Savea is very very good and very very strong. If ye want to go on believing that he is some unstoppable demi-god so be it, but I'm not buying it.

iroced

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Here is the starting Toulon 15 against Leinster in the Semi this year.


How many French players? Very few.
Could you imagine if the Canterbury Crusaders had the same level of non New Zealand lads?

What this is saying is that the best French domestic team is not a conduit for the best French players?

French Rugby is sadly dead. They are like an English team from 20 years ago.

Read stadedublinois post, you'll learn something .

Coburger wrote: »

How do you think a coach like Schmidt would do at France?

In the current system he'd do badly. Of course he'd fare better than PSA but the main problem is beyond the staff and the players. I went into it in detail in my previous post.

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Badly, the French players are work shy.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I think their reaction to Sexton when at Racing points to this, a bit at least. Your #10 controls the game, or should at least, if he's shouting at you because you're not perfect the correct reaction is to be perfect, not to whinge about it.

French players are probably the ones playing the most high-intensity games throughout each season but yeah they are lazy working :rolleyes:...
Have you ever wondered why Sexton was never as good with Racing than with Leinster? Why did he get injured? Same with Carter when he was in USAP. Only played 5 games. Top14 is a tough competitive league which current physical demands are incompatible with national side rugby in the professional era. Again, I'll cite the stat about Dusautoir playing the equivalent of 3 more seasons than McCaw since the last RWC final!

rrpc wrote: »

I remember listening to a piece on the radio (could have been 'off the ball') about the Belgian system where the young footballers are trained in academies where they don't play a competitive match until they are eighteen (or thereabouts, I can't remember exactly). The result is a complete immersion in the skills of the game from a very young age until they are complete footballers in every sense. It's no surprise therefore that Belgian footballers are now some of the most sought after in leagues around Europe and are very skillful.

Yes. This is the example to follow. That's what Spain & Germany implemented for their football. It took them years to reach their current state. Spain used to put all the focus on La Liga and their national side was never achieving anything. Then Aragones and later Del Bosque understood that they had to use the Barça & Real "canteras" (academies) to make the national team shine. Del Bosque also managed to appease the Castillan-Catalan tensions (giving responsibilities to Casillas & Puyoll-Xavi) and here you go. It's not rocket science. Germany was in a bad state after the WC98. They started back with their academies. The WC2002 was deceptive (basically they reached the final mainly thanks to their experience). But then, they gave the keys to Joachim Löw. He "revolutioned" German football (in a way, he "Guardiolased" it). It took some time but look at the result.

rrpc wrote: »

I just have to take issue with you on this. Just a bit, mind

Clearly skills have a huge part to play in how French players can play rugby. However, coaching is not just about skills, it's about mindset and systems. France had no systems to fall back on last night. They played with fear because they had no idea how to even contain New Zealand. After the first half, they had missed 18 tackles. This isn't rocket science, they are professionals and at the very least should know how to tackle and how to work a defensive system. Neither did they trust each other in defense; how many times did we see them bite in and leave space for an All Black to run through?

I agree with you. But my point is the most to blame are the ones who decide. PSA and his staff didn't cope with the job. Alright. Who put them here? Who added Blanco the muppet after 2 years of bad results? What the fecking hell Blanco has been doing all this time? We never heard him?! What is he paid for?!
I have respect for PSA because he always stood up to the task. Always replied to the press (though he cancelled the press conference this morning but he stayed long enough yesterday evening in the post match one), even yesterday evening when people shamefully booed him in the stadium. Where was Lagisquet? Where was Bru? Where was BLANCO??? Granted PSA made the wrong choices, the wrong calls. He went in a wrong direction, couldn't implement solid tactics & gameplans. But he didn't do these choices alone! He also always explained what he was doing and going to do. There is NO surprise at all from our performances at this RWC. Where are all the people who let him go in the wrong direction? Again, he was not alone driving the French squad. There's a full federation behind him. Where are all these guys? Having some banquet in a Michelin guide 3-star restaurant in Paris? I know easy cliché but still where are they? More interested in defending their own little personal interest rather than the country's ones? When will this pointless ridiculous "war" between the federation & the league stop? Can't all these guys realise THEY are the real cancer of French rugby ???!!!

stadedublinois wrote: »

There needs to be more communication and compromise between the clubs and the national team (hopefully Novès will help with this).

This is one of the most important key to our revival!

stadedublinois wrote: »

Iroced’s system sounds interesting. How would the teams be split?

We used to have 2 groups of 8 in some former versions of Top16.

I'd just add seeds. Take each season rankings from Top14 implementation for the 2005-06 season.

x amount of pts for the 1st
y amount of pts for the 2nd
etc...
Give bonus pts for the semi-final winners and the final winner.
Add up.

Make 5 groups of 4 out of it and randomly distribute 2 from each group in both Top 20 pools.

For this season

Tier 1 could have : Toulon, Clermont, Toulouse, Stade Français
Tier 2 .............. : Castres, Montpellier, Biarritz, Perpignan
Tier 3 .............. : Racing, Bayonne, Bordeaux-Bègles, Grenoble
Tier 4 .............. : Brive, Pau, Agen, LOU
Tier 5 .............. : La Rochelle, Oyonnax, Aurillac, Albi

So Pool1: Toulon, Toulouse, Castres, Biarritz, Racing, UBB, Brive, Agen, La Rochelle, Aurillac.
... Pool2: Clermont, Stade Français, Montpellier, USAP, Bayonne, Grenoble, Pau, LOU, Oyonnax, Aurillac.

Quarter finals: 1st Pool 1 - 4th Pool 2
................... 2nd Pool 1 - 3rd Pool 2
................... 3rd Pool 1 - 2nd Pool 2
................... 4th Pool 1 - 1st Pool 2

Why not make return games for Quarters & Semis? 18 games regular season + 5 maximum = 23 games. Now we have 28-29 games. An economy of 5 to 6 weeks for the internatiuonals. TV should be happy with the 5 GWs play-offs. I feel this system should suit everyone. Elite safety for 18 clubs too.

Top 3 from each pool makes the ERCC.

Bottom 2 could go down or just the last directly and the second last plays a play-off with 3rd/4th of ProD2 with top2 from ProD2 directly promotted. There are ways to make this work without over-demanding from our players.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

iroced wrote: »

French players are probably the ones playing the most high-intensity games throughout each season but yeah they are lazy working :rolleyes:...
Have you ever wondered why Sexton was never as good with Racing than with Leinster? Why did he get injured? Same with Carter when he was in USAP. Only played 5 games. Top14 is a tough competitive league which current physical demands are incompatible with national side rugby in the professional era. Again, I'll cite the stat about Dusautoir playing the equivalent of 3 more seasons than McCaw since the last RWC final!

Playing a match with high intensity is not the same as being hard working. A lot of the time lately France look like high intensity headless chickens.

stadedublinois

One of the analysts on French tv earlier suggested a quota system where each player is only allowed play a certain number of games each season which could be interesting.

Another thing that could be done is get rid of medical jokers. Might make teams use their youth players more.

irishbucsfan

stadedublinois wrote: »

One of the analysts on French tv earlier suggested a quota system where each player is only allowed play a certain number of games each season which could be interesting.

Another thing that could be done is get rid of medical jokers. Might make teams use their youth players more.

I would be interested in seeing a plan for the first one. A limit of 15-20 games per player might work quite nicely but the problem is that suddenly players are under much more demand and the teams with larger budgets start to move further ahead of teams with smaller budgets. It'd need to be paired with a salary cap that works.

Limiting medical jokers wouldn't be worth it IMO. When coming up with a structure for developing youth you shouldn't try to come up with mechanisms to lower the competition to their level, but rather mechanisms to raise them to the competition's level. The B&I Cup is a good example of this.

stadedublinois

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would be interested in seeing a plan for the first one. A limit of 15-20 games per player might work quite nicely but the problem is that suddenly players are under much more demand and the teams with larger budgets start to move further ahead of teams with smaller budgets. It'd need to be paired with a salary cap that works.

Limiting medical jokers wouldn't be worth it IMO. When coming up with a structure for developing youth you shouldn't try to come up with mechanisms to lower the competition to their level, but rather mechanisms to raise them to the competition's level. The B&I Cup is a good example of this.

I would think it would have to be more like 25-30. I'm not sure what the best way to include international games would be. French clubs are limited to 35 players in the 'professional' squad. That and the improving salary cap would probably be ok.

On the medical joker, I think it's more about giving young players an opportunity rather than lowering standards. Maybe an exception should be made for the front row.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

stadedublinois wrote: »

I would think it would have to be more like 25-30. I'm not sure what the best way to include international games would be. French clubs are limited to 35 players in the 'professional' squad. That and the improving salary cap would probably be ok.

I think the Southern Hemisphere have the best set up when it comes to balancing club and international rugby.

The Super Rugby only goes on for 5/6 months, then they have their main international break and the clubs get a load of quality players back to play for them in things like the Currie Cup.

The players aren't playing too much rugby, they get quite a long break in a non World Cup year and the talent is spread across the professional clubs, the international team and the more "local" clubs.

ThisRegard

On the fist to McCaws face incident, Fester on TV3 mentioned he was getting undeserved criticism for play acting at the time. He then showed the video in which there was a follow through with a knee to the head supported by the full weight of the players body.

Apologies all around to poor misaligned Richie so?

nehe milner skudder

ThisRegard wrote: »

On the fist to McCaws face incident, Fester on TV3 mentioned he was getting undeserved criticism for play acting at the time. He then showed the video in which there was a follow through with a knee to the head supported by the full weight of the players body.

Apologies all around to poor misaligned Richie so?

i think he gets treated appallingly by people on this message board to be honest

aimee1

ThisRegard wrote: »

On the fist to McCaws face incident, Fester on TV3 mentioned he was getting undeserved criticism for play acting at the time. He then showed the video in which there was a follow through with a knee to the head supported by the full weight of the players body.

Apologies all around to poor misaligned Richie so?

saw that, hard to know if it was on purpose given about 5 players were grabbing/pushing each other after picamoles' little jab to mccaws face.

ThisRegard

Yeah, I suppose the issue is that he wasn't playing up the fist graze though, there was no gamesmanship.