Forced to take annual leave in place of sick leave

JStew · 08-10-2015 1:25pm #1

Hello, I had to take 3 days unexpected leave (I have a medical certificate to cover the days) to care for my wife who is sick, and for my children. My manager at work insists that I take the three days as annual leave and not sick leave, as I was not personally sick. Does anyone know what rights I have under Irish Law? I checked citizens advice but it is not clear to me.

davo10 · 08-10-2015 1:31pm

JStew wrote: »

Hello, I had to take 3 days unexpected leave (I have a medical certificate to cover the days) to care for my wife who is sick, and for my children. My manager at work insists that I take the three days as annual leave and not sick leave, as I was not personally sick. Does anyone know what rights I have under Irish Law? I checked citizens advice but it is not clear to me.

Your manager is right, you (the employee) are not sick therefore you cannot be signed off on sick leave. How on earth did you get a medical very from a GP when you personally are not sick?

seamus · 08-10-2015 1:35pm

As above, your employer is correct. Sick leave only applies when you are sick.

The presence of a medical certificate is irrelevant, your employer can dispute the validity of it.

What you need to avail of in this case is force majeur leave, but if a bit of time has elapsed since, it might be too late to apply it.

JStew · 08-10-2015 1:36pm

Hi davo10, My wife was very sick, and there was no one else to take care of our children. When I took her to the Dr, I explained the situation and she gave me a medical certificate stating I was unable to attend work as I was the primary carer for our children while my wife was sick. I understand that carer's leave has to last at least 13 weeks, so that was not something that qualified.

JStew · 08-10-2015 1:38pm

I looked at force majeur leave, I will read it again. I was just wondering if I was entitled to sick leave instead of having to take annual leave. If you become sick on annual leave, you can get a cert and have those days as sick leave rather than annual leave. Just checking.

Dial Hard · 08-10-2015 1:40pm

JStew wrote:

I looked at force majeur leave, I will read it again. I was just wondering if I was entitled to sick leave instead of having to take annual leave. If you become sick on annual leave, you can get a cert and have those days as sick leave rather than annual leave. Just checking.

You weren't sick, though. The fact that your doctor signed you off (which is crazy, imo) doesn't change that.

DuffleBag · 08-10-2015 1:41pm

Wish i had a crooked doctor like that!

ForestFire · 08-10-2015 1:41pm

As posted above, force majeur is what you are entitled too, not sick leave.

I would read the link provided carefully and go back to your emplyer to request this.

ForestFire · 08-10-2015 1:43pm

DuffleBag wrote: »

Wish i had a crooked doctor like that!

Don't think the doctor done anything wrong?

Wrote a letter to explain the wife's illness only, and that because of this, she was not able to mind the kids.

The doctor did not say there was anything medically wrong with the OP

ForestFire · 08-10-2015 1:44pm

JStew wrote: »

I looked at force majeur leave, I will read it again. I was just wondering if I was entitled to sick leave instead of having to take annual leave. If you become sick on annual leave, you can get a cert and have those days as sick leave rather than annual leave. Just checking.

This is true when you are sick, not your wife

_Brian · 08-10-2015 2:07pm

Few things stick out here...

1. the doctor is a pure sham if he gave OP a medical cert to get time off work because his wife was sick. I'd be interested to see OP clarify - did you get a letter explaining your wife was sick, or did you get a cert saying you were sick so you'd fraudulently get time of work ??

2. you cannot be forced to take annual leave in stead of being off sick - providing you are genuinely sick, however, I suspect your manager knew that you weren't sick yourself and so was refusing the medical cert provided to you by the doctor.

3. your manager was poor in not suggesting force majeur leave be taken, this is the exact scenario it was introduced to cover and unless you've already used up your allowance there is no skin of their nose for doing so, actually it helps build a relationship by helping employees out when they need it.

I've worked in a company who blacklisted medical certs from a select few GP's as they were handing out medical certs like tissue paper.

evey3624 · 08-10-2015 2:09pm

OP you can apply for Force Majeure for the first day only as this leave is seen as unexpected/ emergency leave not planned leave. So on the first day of your wife sickness it was imperative that you had to care for your children as your wife was unable to do so (and you will have to explain the illness) and it was unexpected. Once you received diagnoses it is no longer viewed as unexpected and you can know plan ahead so the additional days will be holidays.

Hope this helps!!

evey3624 · 08-10-2015 2:11pm

OP you can apply for Force Majeure for the first day only as this leave is seen as unexpected/ emergency leave not planned leave. So on the first day of your wife sickness it was imperative that you had to care for your wife (you will have to explain the illness and it will have to be deemed severe enough to warrant this type of leave i.e. not a flu) and it was unexpected. Once you received diagnoses it is no longer viewed as unexpected and you can know plan ahead so the additional days will be holidays.

Hope this helps!!

readyletsgo · 08-10-2015 2:12pm

I hope your wife is doing much better no OP.

I presume you we're off due to stress (due to family illness) which is a valid reason a doctor can put down on a mc2. But, it's up to each individual employer to except that reason.

JStew · 08-10-2015 2:18pm

Hi All,

Wife is so/so, has a recurring infection after birth of our child which is just not going away.

To be fair to the Dr, the med cert states that I am unable to attend work due to illness of primary care giver to our children. I have never had a med cert before and (touch wood) won't need one again. I will just take the 3 days as annual leave as suggested.

Spudman_20000 · 08-10-2015 2:20pm

readyletsgo wrote: »

I hope your wife is doing much better no OP.

I presume you we're off due to stress (due to family illness) which is a valid reason a doctor can put down on a mc2. But, it's up to each individual employer to except that reason.

If your employer is not accepting the reason, they should contact your GP directly. I would love to be a fly on the wall when they question your GPs medical judgement. Usually goes down a treat.

I'm sure it was a very stressful time for you OP. Not sure how your employer expected you to be at work while your family was ill.

Bogger77 · 08-10-2015 2:40pm

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

If your employer is not accepting the reason, they should contact your GP directly. I would love to be a fly on the wall when they question your GPs medical judgement. Usually goes down a treat.

I'm sure it was a very stressful time for you OP. Not sure how your employer expected you to be at work while your family was ill.

The boss probably didn't suggest force majeur leave, once the OP handed in a medical cert, that was a worthless cert.

OPs boss doesn't need to contact the doctor, as the cert says the OP can't go to work, as he's babysitting his kids. That's not a medical condition

Force Majeur, as mentioned would cover only day 1, as after that the OP would be expected to have sorted out childcare.

The OP may have parental leave he could take, but that's usually prearranged. not post leave.

Mr.Carter · 08-10-2015 2:44pm

+1 on force majeur

Mrs OBumble · 08-10-2015 2:45pm

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

Not sure how your employer expected you to be at work while your family was ill.

The employer did not expect the poster to be at work: if they did expect that, the OP would now be looking at disciplinary proceedings, or at least unpaid leave. Instead the employer has generously allowed them to use paid leave.

OP, for your info, there is NO entitlement to sick leave under Irish employment law. None for you. None for your family. This sounds preposterous to people from some other countries, but it is the way it is. To complain about it, see your TD.

Technically, if you are unable to fulfill your employment contract due to being sick, or due to your family being sick or even dying, your employer can start disciplinary proceedings.

In practice, however, almost all employers allow you to have a certain number of days of sick leave each year before they start this process.

Some generous employers even allow a certain number of days paid sick leave each year.

After six days of sickness yourself, you may become eligible for Illness Benefit.

But I don't know what, if any, benefits cover situations when you have to care for children because the main caregiver is sick. As you say, it's not Carer's allowance - among other things, that's for when you have to care for a sick person, not for others who they usually care for. If it happens again, maybe ask Welfare an open-ended question and see what they say.

davo10 · 08-10-2015 2:58pm

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

If your employer is not accepting the reason, they should contact your GP directly. I would love to be a fly on the wall when they question your GPs medical judgement. Usually goes down a treat.

I'm sure it was a very stressful time for you OP. Not sure how your employer expected you to be at work while your family was ill.

An employer cannot contact a GP directly and seek info about an illness any more than a GP can breach patient confidentiality by providing that info.
The employer is correct not to accept a request for leave due to illness, the op is not sick. Also, the op has not stated whether he has considered applying for unpaid leave, as correctly stated above, there are strict criteria for applying for force majuere, it must be urgent, it must be a close family member, the applicant's presence must be essential, it can only be for 3 days in any 12 month period and it must be applied for on the first day, not retrospectively.

Spudman_20000 · 08-10-2015 3:00pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The employer did not expect the poster to be at work: if they did expect that, the OP would now be looking at disciplinary proceedings, or at least unpaid leave. Instead the employer has generously allowed them to use paid leave.

Extremely generous indeed. :rolleyes:

There's the letter of the law, and then there's an employer having a bit of cop on. Unless this was a regular occurrence, then accommodations should be made that don't involve the OP having to take annual leave.

Rules are there to be bent. Who knows, an employer might need some flexibility in future themselves, such as unpaid overtime etc. The door should swing both ways.

OP, if your manager/company is really that much a stickler for the rules, maybe it would be worth considering a career change.

Reputable Rog · 08-10-2015 3:02pm

Bogger77 wrote: »

The boss probably didn't suggest force majeur leave, once the OP handed in a medical cert, that was a worthless cert.

OPs boss doesn't need to contact the doctor, as the cert says the OP can't go to work, as he's babysitting his kids. That's not a medical condition

Force Majeur, as mentioned would cover only day 1, as after that the OP would be expected to have sorted out childcare.

The OP may have parental leave he could take, but that's usually prearranged. not post leave.

Force Majeur can cover up to 3 days in a 12 month period, or 5 in 36.

toadfly · 08-10-2015 3:15pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Force Majeur can cover up to 3 days in a 12 month period, or 5 in 36.

It can but of the three days only the first was unexpected. After that the OP knew he would need someone to mind the kids and so had time to organise it.

OP apply for force majeure for the first day only, annual leave for the other two.

Nody · 08-10-2015 3:17pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Force Majeur can cover up to 3 days in a 12 month period, or 5 in 36.

Yes but not three concurrent days which was the point of saying only one day is covered.

Spudman_20000 · 08-10-2015 3:21pm

toadfly wrote: »

It can but of the three days only the first was unexpected. After that the OP knew he would need someone to mind the kids and so had time to organise it.

OP apply for force majeure for the first day only, annual leave for the other two.

OP, next time your GP should state stress caused by family illness on the cert. Your family's wellbeing comes first.

I can only assume by some of the replies that some posters do not have children. Organising childcare to mind your sick children? And maybe some home help for your sick wife I suppose? Seriously now, I've heard it all.

toadfly · 08-10-2015 3:27pm

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

OP, next time your GP should state stress caused by family illness on the cert. Your family's wellbeing comes first.

I can only assume by some of the replies that some posters do not have children. Organising childcare to mind your sick children? And maybe some home help for your sick wife I suppose? Seriously now, I've heard it all.

Or maybe we are telling the OP what is covered by law which is more helpful to him than parents saying its ridiculous that he doesnt get paid leave to mind his kids.

Dial Hard · 08-10-2015 3:29pm

Spudman_20000 wrote:

I can only assume by some of the replies that some posters do not have children. Organising childcare to mind your sick kids

His children aren't sick, his wife, who presumably stays at home with them, is.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. The OP isn't sick, so sick leave doesn't apply, simple as.

What do you think other parents do, as a matter of interest?

Bogger77 · 08-10-2015 4:29pm

mushypeas12 wrote: »

OP, why didn't you just pretend to be sick. Tell you're doctor you're stressed and they'll give you cert, I do it all the time, haven't been caught yet.

and this is why companies don't believe sick certs for stress

davo10 · 08-10-2015 4:32pm

mushypeas12 wrote: »

OP, why didn't you just pretend to be sick. Tell you're doctor you're stressed and they'll give you cert, I do it all the time, haven't been caught yet.

A cert does not entitle you to leave of absence due to illness, it just explains why you are applying for it.

Spudman_20000 · 08-10-2015 4:38pm

Bogger77 wrote: »

and this is why companies don't believe sick certs for stress

Or certs for bad cases of sarcasm-itis either.

Dial Hard wrote: »

What do you think other parents do, as a matter of interest?

Well, I'm glad you asked. I'd recommend a multi-step approach:
1. Tell the wife to toughen up, and in fact, tell her to get back in the workplace and contribute to society
2. Abdicate the care of your kids to a creche, 5 days a week or more if possible, seeing as kids love it so much apparently
3. Drink the company cool aid, and take the nuclear option immediately in all cases of absenteeism
4. Follow steps 1 to 3 above, and hopefully find yourself in a management position at your company in the near future

davo10 · 08-10-2015 4:43pm

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

Or certs for bad cases of sarcasm-itis either.

Well, I'm glad you asked. I'd recommend a multi-step approach:
1. Tell the wife to toughen up, and in fact, tell her to get back in the workplace and contribute to society
2. Abdicate the care of your kids to a creche, 5 days a week or more if possible, seeing as kids love it so much apparently
3. Drink the company cool aid, and take the nuclear option immediately in all cases of absenteeism
4. Follow steps 1 to 3 above, and hopefully find yourself in a management position at your company in the near future

Or, follow your example, risk getting found out faking illness and worry about supporting your family on welfare payments.

Mrs OBumble · 08-10-2015 4:46pm

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

Organising childcare to mind your sick children? And maybe some home help for your sick wife I suppose? Seriously now, I've heard it all.

The children aren't sick. The wife is. Home nursing / home help agencies exist precisely for reasons like this. They are costly, but it is possible. Other options include friends, family and sometimes even neighbours.

Wise parents have contingency plans in place for just this sort of situation.

davo10 · 08-10-2015 4:48pm

Just as a matter of interest op, why don't you use your annual leave to stay at home and care for your family?

Tigger · 08-10-2015 5:10pm

because he has a sick note

Reputable Rog · 08-10-2015 7:27pm

Nody wrote: »

Yes but not three concurrent days which was the point of saying only one day is covered.

I got three concurrent days a few years ago. It's at the discretion of your employer.

bee06 · 08-10-2015 7:31pm

Tigger wrote: »

because he has a sick note

No, he had a note from a doctor that said his wife was sick so he had to mind the kids.

Nichard Dixon · 08-10-2015 7:37pm

The doctor wrote a letter stating that the OP's wife was sick, this may not have been presented as a "sick note" and it seems the employer was clear that it was not such. Sick leave is for when you are sick, other things come under different categories. Effectively this is a case of the employer being expected to pay the OP, so that the OP won't have to pay for a child minder or whatever. The employer may be willing to do this, but don't have to.

JohnBee · 08-10-2015 7:38pm

mushypeas12 wrote: »

OP, why didn't you just pretend to be sick. Tell you're doctor you're stressed and they'll give you cert, I do it all the time, haven't been caught yet.

Since when is stress an illness? Most people in the real world are exposed to stress. Indeed many jobs are filled with stress. It is part of life.

Advising the OP to pretend to be sick is encouraging fraud.

The employer was correct. End of. I note the OP seems to recognize this and accepts it also.

Tigger · 08-10-2015 8:07pm

bee06 wrote: »

No, he had a note from a doctor that said his wife was sick so he had to mind the kids.

i agree its ridiculous but thats why he thinks he should get to use sick days
i'd be glad if i was allowed annual leave at short notice

TimeToShine · 08-10-2015 8:10pm

mushypeas12 wrote: »

OP, why didn't you just pretend to be sick. Tell you're doctor you're stressed and they'll give you cert, I do it all the time, haven't been caught yet.

This is a troll.

lazeedaisy · 08-10-2015 8:38pm

But you are not sick!

Why are you surprised???

lazeedaisy · 08-10-2015 8:46pm

mushypeas12 wrote: »

OP, why didn't you just pretend to be sick. Tell you're doctor you're stressed and they'll give you cert, I do it all the time, haven't been caught yet.

:eek:

:eek:

:eek:

Yeah right....... No wonder we are in the mess we are!!

The OP IS NOT SICK

Tigger · 08-10-2015 9:36pm

lazeedaisy wrote: »

The OP IS NOT SICK

sshhhh his cousin has a headache

Eoin · 08-10-2015 10:04pm

You might not even get Force Majeure for this type of thing - I think it's really meant for a "rush a relative to hospital" scenario, but you might get away with it.

08-10-2015 10:12pm

Do you have a thing called "family leave" in your work? I had that in my place just for situations like this

blatantrereg · 08-10-2015 10:47pm

If you send a sick cert from doctor into social welfare this will allow you to get illness benefit from the state

davo10 · 08-10-2015 11:03pm

Strange thread this.

Let's not lose sight of why the op is taking time off, his wife is ill and his family needs him.

The sick cert is a no no and the employer was right so in effect the op has no rights in a legal sense to paid time off. He can apply for annual leave and unpaid leave. To be entitled to state illness benefit, you must be certified sick (he is not) and it kicks in after 6 days.

Op your over riding concern is to be with your family when they need you and irrespective of your employer's decision to grant sick leave, you have to be there. So take annual leave or ask for unpaid leave, unfortunately you are either going to use up some holiday days or take a hit in your wages but neither is as important as being at home right now.

Neyite · 09-10-2015 11:56am

OP, most parents when taking time off due to a family member being ill, either use up their paid annual leave or take unpaid leave (parental leave) Some employers may make you make up the time lost at a later date.

The first year I was back at work I took 20 unpaid leave days because my child was picking up bugs /teething/ temperature. It sucks, but it is what it is. My partner took unpaid leave too, but luckily his employer facilitates working from home occasionally. It's just part of the juggle parents who work do, and while it is brilliant to get an understanding employer, having kids does not entitle us to get paid for a day we didn't work.

Look into parental leave with your employer, or suggest options to work from home if that's an option. Or take annual leave if you cant afford to be down a few days wages. If you can demonstrate that there is no alternative carer for your children when their primary carer takes ill, then you can try for force majeure leave.

Forced to take annual leave in place of sick leave

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