Reasonable Salary Expectation?

The Corinthian

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Cost of living in san fran would be nearly twice that of here, of course there are people who live more frugally. Overall they get paid a lot more when you adjust for cost of living even. They get less holidays, less job security is the flip side, also health insurance tied to your job is a thing.

Similar situation in Switzerland. Graduates will get paid somewhere in the regions of 50k - 60k Euro p.a.. Problem is the cost of living is double what it is in Ireland. To demonstrate this, the Franc is about 1.09 to the Euro and an, admittedly organic, chicken costs this. Having said this, taxes are much lower.

Basically, salary is only part of the story; financially tax and cost of living are just as important, and need to weighed up too. All before you consider more intagable benefits and downsides.

Overall, though, it's still a lot easier to save here than in Ireland and what you save will go a lot further in Ireland (or most other countries). Ireland's not a very good place to make money, I'm afraid, especially given it's progressive tax system. Great country to be poor though.

jester77

The Corinthian wrote: »

Similar situation in Switzerland. Graduates will get paid somewhere in the regions of 50k - 60k Euro p.a.. Problem is the cost of living is double what it is in Ireland. To demonstrate this, the Franc is about 1.09 to the Euro and an, admittedly organic, chicken costs this. Having said this, taxes are much lower.

Basically, salary is only part of the story; financially tax and cost of living are just as important, and need to weighed up too. All before you consider more intagable benefits and downsides.

Overall, though, it's still a lot easier to save here than in Ireland and what you save will go a lot further in Ireland (or most other countries). Ireland's not a very good place to make money, I'm afraid, especially given it's progressive tax system. Great country to be poor though.

Ah now, that's a bio-chicken That costs around the same price in my local supermarket. Tastes great compared to the poor mass produced birds that never see day light. But I agree with the rest. Salaries in Germany would only be half what they are in Switzerland, but cost of living is much less. All relative at the end of the day!

The Corinthian

jester77 wrote: »

Ah now, that's a bio-chicken

Bio? You've been living in Germany too long - it's organic in English

My point is that salary alone doesn't cover everything, even ignoring services and lifestyle. You have to consider the triad of salary, cost of living and taxation. In this regard, Ireland has a pretty high cost of living, mediocre salaries, and at this stage, pretty high taxes, once you earn even a modest amount.

Tar.Aldarion

Yeah that all adds up to ireland not being a great place to work for us. For instance two friends have paid off a $1.5 million house over 5-6 years in the us, they are around 30. Cost of living is dear but tax is low and income is high, two of the three in their favour. They can decide to live frugally and save like 300k a year as it is possible to live cheaper if they try. We have 0.5 of the three? But good living here. Depends on what your priorities are.

I was told that for switzerland it was something like raising to over 100k after a couple years also?

The Corinthian

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I was told that for switzerland it was something like raising to over 100k after a couple years also?

Yes, you should be on 100k to 120k after a couple of years. Your total tax bill on that will be between 17% and 30% depending on which canton / municipality you live in. As for cost of living, this might give an idea.

Tar.Aldarion

Off to the bay area so!

http://uk.businessinsider.com/google-employee-lives-in-truck-in-parking-lot-2015-10?r=US&IR=T

14ned

The Corinthian wrote: »

My point is that salary alone doesn't cover everything, even ignoring services and lifestyle. You have to consider the triad of salary, cost of living and taxation. In this regard, Ireland has a pretty high cost of living, mediocre salaries, and at this stage, pretty high taxes, once you earn even a modest amount.

Ireland's got lower taxes than most EU countries though - last year our family total net tax inclusive of everything (income tax, PRSI, USC) was just 27% and after rent and bills we had more than half our gross income left over for spending. That's US-style taxation rates, but you'll need a good accountant and the appropriate tax abstractions in place to achieve it (same as the US actually). If you're PAYE, you are rather screwed in Ireland because there is an enormous hidden subsidy of the highly skilled entrepreneurial class on the basis of I suppose us taking on a lot more risk than PAYE workers.

We're not as wealthy here as we were in Canada though. There we earned $150k per annum and got taxed at 32% all in as PAYE workers. Living costs were low too, we were richer there than we've ever been anywhere we've lived. Schools were high quality and free, healthcare was also free. Just dentists cost (a lot of) money.

Ultimately you pay a premium to live in the EU, and I think Ireland is not a bad place to make a living compared to other EU countries. It's all relative in the end.

Niall

The Corinthian

14ned wrote: »

Ireland's got lower taxes than most EU countries though - last year our family total net tax inclusive of everything (income tax, PRSI, USC) was just 27% and after rent and bills we had more than half our gross income left over for spending.

Again, it's not tax, it's not salary, it's not cost of living - it's a combination of all three. You could have low taxes, high cost of living and low salaries and that wouldn't be good either.

I would note this; Ireland has a pretty high cost of living. Across the board, Switzerland is more expensive than Ireland, but often I find it's not that much more and if you want to save it's easier to cut back on your spending than you cut back on how much tax you pay or increase the salary you take in.

beauf

Almost everything you buy in Ireland (good and services) seems to be substantially dearer than other countries. Is that factored into cost of living comparisons.

14ned

The Corinthian wrote: »

Again, it's not tax, it's not salary, it's not cost of living - it's a combination of all three. You could have low taxes, high cost of living and low salaries and that wouldn't be good either.

That outcome could be a lot better than high taxes, high cost of living and low salaries. Much of the developing world could be described as exactly that.

I would note this; Ireland has a pretty high cost of living. Across the board, Switzerland is more expensive than Ireland, but often I find it's not that much more and if you want to save it's easier to cut back on your spending than you cut back on how much tax you pay or increase the salary you take in.

I believe you. According to
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Ireland&country2=Switzerland&city1=Dublin&city2=Zurich despite the cost of living being between 41% and 94% more expensive than Dublin, the much higher income makes the average person in Zurich about 60% better off.

However, not to nit pick, but Switzerland isn't in the EU and therefore doesn't have as high the EU premium of living in the EU. So my earlier statement I think still stands: I still reckon Ireland is amongst the best places in the EU to make a living relative to anywhere else in the EU for entrepreneurial types. It is also, as you mentioned, not too bad a place to be poor relative to say Britain or especially the US.

Niall

14ned

beauf wrote: »

Almost everything you buy in Ireland (good and services) seems to be substantially dearer than other countries. Is that factored into cost of living comparisons.

I factor it into my calculations yes, but then I have an Economics degree so I enjoy the maths involved.

Consumer goods are slightly more expensive in Ireland relative to the EU mainly due to higher VAT and the higher cost of transport e.g. stuff in shops is noticeably cheaper just outside Dublin than just outside Cork.

Big ticket items like cars and TVs are far more expensive. Cars because of VAT and the VRT, TVs is mainly price gouging. I bought a Samsung smart TV from Germany for €500 including shipping to Ireland which cost a minimum of €800 here. Same TV, very different approach to profit margins.

Services I personally find cheaper than the EU, except the UK. Insurance here is a bit more expensive than the UK but far cheaper than in the EU. The EU, last time I lived there, had a very backwards and old fashioned service sector with a corresponding lack of efficiency. Canada was the same incidentally, very old fashioned, you couldn't get insurance on a car for a week for example and the insurance people were surprised at the novelty of the idea.

Niall

The Corinthian

14ned wrote: »

That outcome could be a lot better than high taxes, high cost of living and low salaries. Much of the developing world could be described as exactly that.

Maybe one of our many compatriots who's emigrated to a developing country for an IT job could care to comment?

I believe you. According to
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Ireland&country2=Switzerland&city1=Dublin&city2=Zurich despite the cost of living being between 41% and 94% more expensive than Dublin, the much higher income makes the average person in Zurich about 60% better off.

Thing is you can save money if you make an effort here. Shop in Aldi or Denner rather than Coop or Migros. Don't eat out too often. Don't live in Zurich - live just outside, where prices and rent are much lower, but Zurich is still just a 20 minute train ride away. Either way some things are actually cheaper here - like public transport.

However, not to nit pick, but Switzerland isn't in the EU and therefore doesn't have as high the EU premium of living in the EU. So my earlier statement I think still stands: I still reckon Ireland is amongst the best places in the EU to make a living relative to anywhere else in the EU for entrepreneurial types. It is also, as you mentioned, not too bad a place to be poor relative to say Britain or especially the US.

Not sure what this EU premium you keep discussing is. For the honour of living in the EU?

I've lived and worked in both and, hands down, Switzerland is a much, much better place to make a living than Ireland. For entrepreneurial types, I'm undecided, but Switzerland has less paperwork and more investment. You'll also get your invoices paid, unlike Irish cowboy culture - and it's easy enough to get your money if they don't and even charge interest. On the other side, I've a soft spot for Ireland, but that's probably because I grew up there and have a better business network there.

Ireland's definitely a better place to be poor or, more correctly, unemployed though, but that's because there's a stigma against it here, while it's accepted in Ireland as normal.

rojito

I have a different perspective that might be of interest,

Around 4 years ago I decided to up sticks and move to a "second-world" economy in South America. After a few months of intensive Spanish lessons I got a job with a company as a Java developer with 0 experience (having previously had about 2 1/2 years c++ experience, so it wasn't that much of a change).

Now, these days on paper my gross salary looks a lot less than any of the numbers on this thread, a modest €26k. But after I remove tax and mandatory deductions (8%) and rent (<€300 a month in an upper-middle class area of the city), I have disposable cash of over €1600 a month. It has been a long time since I lived in Ireland, but I am wondering how this would compare for a comparable lifestyle and position?

Even at that, the €1600 here goes a lot further than it would at home. I wouldn't expect to pay much more than €100 if I took my girl out for dinner in a restaurant with a locally famous chef (as in, he's on TV). In addition, I am about an hours flight from the Caribbean so go diving from time to time.

In short, I haven't paid much attention to gross salaries in a long time, because for me I am very happy where I am at this stage of my life. It may be that even now I could expect more disposable cash at home, I am just not sure I would have as much fun outside of the office.

The Corinthian

rojito wrote: »

It has been a long time since I lived in Ireland, but I am wondering how this would compare for a comparable lifestyle and position?

I suspect you're in a better position than many, as when you take tax, costs and salary into account the numbers crunch well.

With one caveat. It'll be a lot harder for you to, for example, retire in Ireland than someone who's made their living in San Francisco or Zurich. Raising the money and paying the mortgage for a home in Ireland in the latter two is much easier than where you are. And I suspect a pension earned in the US or Switzerland will go a lot further in Ireland than one earned in South America.

But if you've no wish or plans to return, then you're sorted

Eugene Norman

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Yeah that all adds up to ireland not being a great place to work for us. For instance two friends have paid off a $1.5 million house over 5-6 years in the us, they are around 30. Cost of living is dear but tax is low and income is high, two of the three in their favour. They can decide to live frugally and save like 300k a year as it is possible to live cheaper if they try. We have 0.5 of the three? But good living here. Depends on what your priorities are.

I was told that for switzerland it was something like raising to over 100k after a couple years also?

The sum total of state, federal and property taxes adds up in California. Thst said they do have a $1m house.

Eugene Norman

I have lived in California and never felt rich. The sum total of tax from state, federal, "payroll" etc. adds up.

Putting $120 into a tax calculator for California I find that the total deductions amounted to about 50k. Leaving you with $72k. If you splash out on a two bed in San Francisco you can say goodbye to 36k+ of that and you are going to need a car to get you down to Silicon Valley unless you work in the few employers in San Francisco. The other option is the Bay Area where you pay a premium to be anywhere within walking distance of what would be considered a mediocre town centre in Europe. Rents not much different though.

Gas is cheaper, foods about the same.

Of course you can actually become rich there if stock options go your way.

um7y1h83ge06nx

I live in the far-flung area that is Limerick.

At one stage my other half (a Radiographer) was working in Dublin. For a while there was a toss up whether she would make it down to Limerick (she's originally from here) or would I head to Dublin.

In the end she came down. In hindsight we talk about how different things would be in Dublin. She would be on the same salary as she's public sector, while I would be on a bit more being in IT. Life would be a bit more exciting in Dublin with more gigs, concerts, generally a real city buzz.

On the flipside we recently bought a very well specced 3200sqft 2 storey on a 0.7 acre site about 12 minutes from Limerick, for the price of what a semi-d in a decent area of Dublin would cost. I'm also lucky to still own a semi-d in a high demand Limerick suburb that was my home before this move.

All anecdotal of course. I used to work with a guy where both himself and his wife worked in IT in Switzerland. Their take was that they were able to make good money but when the kids cam along things got much more expensive for them and they decided to move back to Ireland (being closer to family was also a major consideration).

14ned

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not sure what this EU premium you keep discussing is. For the honour of living in the EU?

The EU is one of the most evidence-based governance regions of the world, and it is certainly by far the biggest. No one is claiming it isn't without its pork barrelled spending and stupid inefficiencies, but I am claiming it is less bad at this than anywhere else of a comparable size anywhere in the world. When China and India and South America study what to copy from the West, they try to copy the European social model almost exclusively. Nobody tries to copy the US social model (for good reason).

The "EU premium" essentially derives from empirical testing: studies established back in the 1970s that the average person is terrible at long term decision making, so in the EU we generally take away purchasing power from individuals via income and sales taxes and return that purchasing power in the form of welfare, whether it be of subsidy (e.g. don't tax investment like consumption), vouchers or outright cash handouts (increasingly the latter). We then provide a partial opt-out from that system for the wealthy and educated who tend to be far better at long term decision making than the average person. The key difference in the EU system over any other is that wealthier people get more welfare compared to poorer people, and this is indeed the case in most EU countries with the notable exception of the UK.

None of this happened by chance. It was designed after sequences of empirical trials in various EU countries showed it produced the least worst outcomes compared to alternatives. And no doubt, it's all a bit haphazard with no real unifying ideology. Over the decades EU level technocrats decided EU wide policy on the basis of empirical results in so far as was politically possible, so we ended up where we are today. A reasonable literature review of the relevant papers is Korpi and Palme (1998).

So, to summarise, there is a deliberate policy in the EU to take purchasing power away from the average citizen and give it back to them for their own good. In zero sum terms, we are probably a lot wealthier than the US, we certainly have far better DALYs than the US. But GDP and GNP aren't calculated to include this sort of welfare, so it appears as if we are much poorer.

Hopefully that explains it. You can find a book called "Economists and the Powerful" which explains all this much more. Disclaimer: I cowrote it.

Niall

14ned

rojito wrote: »

Now, these days on paper my gross salary looks a lot less than any of the numbers on this thread, a modest €26k. But after I remove tax and mandatory deductions (8%) and rent (<€300 a month in an upper-middle class area of the city), I have disposable cash of over €1600 a month. It has been a long time since I lived in Ireland, but I am wondering how this would compare for a comparable lifestyle and position?

Sounds very similar to my first real job which was in the 1990s in Madrid in Spain. Back then I earned €30k in a country where the average income was €12k at that time. Needless to say, I was very wealthy except when I had to buy computer parts or flights.

I remember my rent was €500/month for a city centre flat, but living costs despite going out partying till 8am every weekend were nothing - you could drink a lot with tapas over six hours and spend only €15. I certainly banked €800/month anyway, I actually couldn't spend it in the free time I had despite the 30 hour week which then was typical for professionals.

A meal at the same restaurant the King and Queen ate at was about €100 a head including superb wine with the food being outstanding. So sounds very similar to your experience with surprisingly similar price levels.

All I'll say is enjoy it, and well done on finding yourself in such a great place!

Niall

daigo75

14ned wrote: »

Ireland's got lower taxes than most EU countries though

Not really, based on a report by the IBEC.

hooplah

Well right-wing IBEC would say that though - their thing is for businesses and earners to pay very little tax or social contributions. Tax cuts instead of pay rises for the low paid. Socialise business expenses, privatise wealth.

Michael Taft writes well and presents a contrary left-wing view. His assertion is that Ireland is a low tax economy. He's got a blog well worth following and reading, here's one sample post http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2014/02/low-tax-economy-for-slow-learners.html

14ned

daigo75 wrote: »

Not really, based on a report by the IBEC.

That's a fairly politically directed document. It's not wrong, it's just it cherry picks the data and presents everything from an individual's perspective to make it all look bad for the "average Irish middle class person" in order to political point score.

Try instead measuring by total tax burden i.e. all the taxes in the country together, including all the hidden taxes like VAT and raised consumer prices due to hidden taxes on companies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP (it's sortable, click on the table header).

Ireland should be near the bottom of European countries, and closer to the US than Europe. The traditional average in Europe was 43% historically, but it's been slowly trending downwards due to shrinking state reforms in big EU economies such as Germany and Spain.

Some may say that GNP is a better measure given Ireland's unusual economy (about a fifth of the Irish economy is the US economy), but even on that measure we're still a good 10% below the European average.

We're a low tax low services economy, even with USC and all the tax rises from the economic collapse. A high skilled IT worker would be glad to earn €42k in Amsterdam - the same worker would pull more than €70k in Dublin. Cost of living in lower in Amsterdam though, especially if you have children.

Niall

Tar.Aldarion

When I was looking at working in Amsterdam I needed over 10k more gross to get the same net. Don't find it too much cheaper either (if even)!
What I think about a lot of the stealth taxes like vat, I can strategically live frugally to avoid paying a lot of tax there and come out ahead. With our income tax + USC etc there is no way to avoid the initial bigger taking in earnings, so people living in the UK (or most countries) would automatically be paying less tax on their wage, the tax that is most unavoidable. Basically the bigger net I have, the better - anywhere, since I'm not stupid

14ned

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

When I was looking at working in Amsterdam I needed over 10k more gross to get the same net. Don't find it too much cheaper either (if even)!
What I think about a lot of the stealth taxes like vat, I can strategically live frugally to avoid paying a lot of tax there and come out ahead. With our income tax + USC etc there is no way to avoid the initial bigger taking in earnings, so people living in the UK (or most countries) would automatically be paying less tax on their wage, the tax that is most unavoidable. Basically the bigger net I have, the better - anywhere, since I'm not stupid

One thing we noticed when I was calculating a Senior Software Developer role in Amsterdam was how many hidden benefits there are not shown in your gross salary. For example, they pay for your commute, part pay for your children to go to a private school, pay for private health insurance and so on. That sort of stuff is not cheap, and makes a gross of say €45k more like €60k equivalent in Ireland - if you have children.

That said, if you don't have children it's nothing like as good a deal. Ireland in that case definitely wins.

Niall

Tar.Aldarion

Yeah I think I am a fan of that model in theory, if it is done well, good services are very important and everybody paying towards them is the best model. My problem is what you mention, big bias towards families, even here I feel punished for not wanting children but I realise the importance of families to society. (Another thing over there is a lot of people find the doctors so bad they hop on a train to another EU country, my girlfriend at the time had a doctor googling her common illness for instance - after having to be told what it was; a question I heard a lot was "Does anybody know of a good doctor anywhere here?") and then if you are getting that service included in your employment you are stuck with it instead of having the capital to choose your own services. Only a problem with application vs model I suppose.