Reasonable Salary Expectation?

meor

Hi,

I know these questions pop up every now and then but was looking to get a feel for what people think nowadays. Basically, is €45k a reasonable expectation for a JEE dev with 3 years experience in Dublin.

Also, in case this thread comes up on Google for anyone, what do you think are reasonable salaries for different levels of experience for Java developers. Obviously there are salary guides available from recruiters but I'd be interested in seeing what developers' experience is. My thinking would be:

• Graduate - €26k to €32k
• 2-5 Years - €40k to €50k
• 5+ Years - €55k+

Thanks.

Tar.Aldarion

I don't work with java so i'll not comment on what I earn vs that, but here is a salary guide from 2015
http://www.morganmckinley.ie/article/it-2015-salary-survey-benefits-guide

java developer
0-3 years 25-45k
3-5 years 45-55k
5 years+ 55-70k

donal.hunt

I think a lot depends on the culture in the company and expertise of the individual. Multinationals (and probably others) tend to focus on success / impact to the company and reward individuals with increases in base salary based on this impact.

From what I've seen with developer roles and responsibilities, actual coding experience will only get you so far -- it's the ability to understand the problem set (the people with the problem don't necessarily know how to quantify it in a way that make the solution obvious), design elegant sustainable and low maintenance solutions and communicate progress / roadblocks that tend to provide the impact (and as a result the salary to keep talent at companies).

I personally think that tenure / O(time on skill X) is a poor way to reward people. I would much prefer to pay someone 2x if they can come in and deliver in the space of a year than have someone hangout for 5 years (eventually earning the same amount) and deliver the same amount of work / skill.

If you're moving role / company and negotiating salary, ask how their salary model works and what it take to increase base salary / receive bonuses. Taking an offer that starts off 10% less but has annual reviews + the ability to increase your salary through demonstrated impact is probably going to be a better deal than somewhere that pays more but doesn't have a system / has a adhoc "we review salaries yearly and adjust as needed". For startups, the profit is all in whether the idea takes off and the team can deliver on their goals -- your ultimate concern should be to ensure your costs are covered and that the company can pay your salary for the next 6+ months. Good startups tend to be open about where they are at with funding and how much runway they have left.

Hope that helps.

TotallyEpic

meor wrote: »

Hi,

I know these questions pop up every now and then but was looking to get a feel for what people think nowadays. Basically, is €45k a reasonable expectation for a JEE dev with 3 years experience in Dublin.

Also, in case this thread comes up on Google for anyone, what do you think are reasonable salaries for different levels of experience for Java developers. Obviously there are salary guides available from recruiters but I'd be interested in seeing what developers' experience is. My thinking would be:

• Graduate - €26k to €32k
• 2-5 Years - €40k to €50k
• 5+ Years - €55k+

Thanks.

I have just over 4 years experience, and I'm on roughly €45k. Seems to be about standard for my course. Hoping for a bump to €50k+ in the next year or so.

The_B_Man

Those salary guides are averages.
I know of java devs with just over 3 years who are on over 50k.
I actually also know a java dev who spent 3 years doing feck all in IBM, then changed to a python role and who's on over 50k as well.

Then in saying that, I also know people who would be on lower wages. The lowest I know being low 30s, and thats after 3 years!!! Its a small company though, and I think its possibly not Java, but web (ASP etc).

There's also the middle of the road then, ranging from high 30's to low 40s after 3 years.

I'm in mobile (Android) so I'm not sure how that coincides with core Java so cant really comment. I just know that my place doesn't pay well.


Incidentally, I'm looking for an Android role in Dublin, if anyone knows one?

Tar.Aldarion

Rather disheartening looking at figures here vs the US isn't it? Where grads get more than tech leads here.

The_B_Man

Where's good to work in the states, in terms of money?
Is there a link to the wages for somewhere like San Fran?

If the moneys that good, I'd nearly go over for a while and save for a house back home!!

Tar.Aldarion

San fran is good, bay area etc. there are plenty of well paying places in the US (NYC, Boston etc), some are more expensive to live in than others, then again their tax is so low that I often read of people planning to retire in their 40s on reddit. You see grads getting signing bonus' of 75k, people in their early twenties with 500k of stock etc earning 100-200k+ plus bonus' and so on. After you eeach an earning point you shift towards equity and bonus'. For instance, someone making 200k might actually be getting 120k base salary plus 15% bonus and 250k stock over 4 years (so, 120k + 18k + 62.5k = 200.5k). Seems fairly common to have 250-500k in stock alone at each job.

Dunno if there are resources for that kinda thing, you just see self reporting mostly. People in the US are generally shocked at what we make when you mention it.
Saw a guy yesterday asking was his 100k a salary ceiling, only to be told by people that god no, grads alone often make more than that.

The_B_Man

Christ!!!! Didn't realise it was that high!
Like realistically if someone was to get a 200k job and work for 2 years, you could potentially live off a fraction of that and save the rest!
In Dublin, I'd live off around 15k a year and the rest I'd save. I'm actually half thinking of this now! lol

Is the cost of living over there that high that you'd need a 200k job to just live comfortably?

Tar.Aldarion

Cost of living in san fran would be nearly twice that of here, of course there are people who live more frugally. Overall they get paid a lot more when you adjust for cost of living even. They get less holidays, less job security is the flip side, also health insurance tied to your job is a thing.

L.Jenkins

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Rather disheartening looking at figures here vs the US isn't it? Where grads get more than tech leads here.

You have to remember, like us, they'll have feck all left at the end of the month after expenses. I lived in Northern California for awhile and it's be no means cheap. If you think house prices in Dublin are bad, a town in the ass hole of nowhere was looking for $500,000 + for 3/4 bedroom houses you'd turn your nose up at here, back in 2006.

TimeToShine

I don't think any graduate program in Dublin pays above €40k let alone 50, especially not Amazon.

As for working in the US, yes it is more lucrative but unless you are applying for an internal transfer within a big multinational (at which point I believe they adjust wages accordingly) you need to a) Somehow convince the company that you're worth it for them to apply for a H1B which costs around €10k and b) beat out stiff competition from a heap of CS graduates from the US who have the right to work their and are in many cases better educated.

The only conceivable way if you aren't truly terrific at what you do is to apply for an internship and prove your worth that way. If you're good enough a H1B will be in the pipeline and you can then work fro there - if one company is willing to sponsor you then others will too.

TimeToShine

As for graduate salaries, you have to remember these kids are coming out of university in serious debt - six figures in many cases - and they adjust their graduate salaries accordingly. The Bay Area is also crazy expensive, we're talking $2-3k for a studio or 1 bed in the city, the young professional night scene is also a lot more expensive than it is here.

14ned

The_B_Man wrote: »

Christ!!!! Didn't realise it was that high!
Like realistically if someone was to get a 200k job and work for 2 years, you could potentially live off a fraction of that and save the rest!
In Dublin, I'd live off around 15k a year and the rest I'd save. I'm actually half thinking of this now! lol

Is the cost of living over there that high that you'd need a 200k job to just live comfortably?

A senior developer in San Fran might expect $160-180k plus stock options. A senior developer in Dublin might expect €70-80k no stock options.

It might seem an awful disparity, but:

1. A good third of the Irish wage goes on social security taxes which pay out if you get widowed, unemployed, pregnant or any other life event. In the US you're more likely to lose your H1B visa and get thrown out by your employer as soon as you don't perform due to misfortune.
   
2. Most US tech employers pay your basic health insurance, but that still leaves you with a 20-50% deductible. A routine visit to the dentist cost me $2500 for a few fillings, whereas my family doctor here wouldn't charge more than €350 for the same work (he told me so after he examined the work). As much as health isn't usually expensive when you're young and healthy and single, it gets very expensive when you get a wife and children.
   
3. Any decent school around Silicon Valley either comes in a hideously expensive property district with multi-year waiting lists, or else you pay tens of thousands per child to go private. Even our worst school in Ireland is in the top third in California, they have some spectacularly bad schools.
   
4. As mentioned by others you'll need to double or treble your cost of living even over central Dublin. A good friend of mine is a Very Important Googler in Mountain View on about a third of million base salary before stock options, and I have more disposable income than he does working here in Ireland (we are both the sole earner in the household). The difference is my family hums along nicely on 20k a year, whereas my friend needs an absolute minimum of 200k just for rent and expenses (he does live within walking distance of Google HQ, so his rent is unusually expensive). His after tax after expenses income is actually a good bit lower than mine, about 20% less, despite that he earns nearly four times as much as I do.

In short, if you think you will never experience misfortune and you don't have children, working in Silicon Valley may make sense. That said, you'll also get the joy of commuting for several hours per day like you work in London and that all the locals hate you and make sure you know it. Working there is stressful, there is a lot of poverty everywhere you look and it wears you down. My buddy is seriously considering relocating to London, Google pay you to move around when you're senior enough even though he'll take a hefty pay cut because of British high taxes he thinks it'll be worth it to no longer have to work there. He's also getting old, and the lack of social security in the US is beginning to worry him, but if he gets too old the UK won't let him in.

If I were reconsidering relocating to the US, I'd actually choose Texas or New Mexico (most disposable income after taxes and expenses) and then Seattle (not far off in disposable income, plus enormous tech industry there). The wealth gap between rich and poor is much better in both too, and the locals don't hate you openly. Commute times are also reasonable, schools are much better without having to pay, and work life balance much nicer.

In short: there are many places much better than Silicon Valley in the US.

Niall

TimeToShine

All great advice but I think the appeal of San Francisco to young people is second to none, I'd certainly put a few years of my life away to live there and expect to come out with no savings. I absolutely loved my time there and would move in a heartbeat. Portland also seems to be hitting a bit of a tech boom so I'd consider that too.

RealistSpy

TimeToShine wrote: »

I don't think any graduate program in Dublin pays above €40k let alone 50, especially not Amazon.

Wrong.

TimeToShine

RealistSpy wrote: »

Wrong.

Care to elaborate?

ED E

Know of CS students who had €45k offer entering 4th year for when they graduated.

The_B_Man

I think Microsoft offer 39k + 10% bonus.
In the places I worked in, QA grads started on 28k and dev grads started on 32k. That was standard enough across my college class, with one or two exceptions (one 35k and another 25k!!!).

L.Jenkins

The_B_Man wrote: »

I think Microsoft offer 39k + 10% bonus.
In the places I worked in, QA grads started on 28k and dev grads started on 32k. That was standard enough across my college class, with one or two exceptions (one 35k and another 25k!!!).

Multinationals can always offer more to a new hire, especially graduates. However, in my own experience and not that of everyone else, the year on year pay increments are pretty low.

Tar.Aldarion

Who offers 40-50k for grads here?

Itzy wrote: »

You have to remember, like us, they'll have feck all left at the end of the month after expenses. I lived in Northern California for awhile and it's be no means cheap. If you think house prices in Dublin are bad, a town in the ass hole of nowhere was looking for $500,000 + for 3/4 bedroom houses you'd turn your nose up at here, back in 2006.

TimeToShine wrote: »

As for graduate salaries, you have to remember these kids are coming out of university in serious debt - six figures in many cases - and they adjust their graduate salaries accordingly. The Bay Area is also crazy expensive, we're talking $2-3k for a studio or 1 bed in the city, the young professional night scene is also a lot more expensive than it is here.

While this can be true, it's a different situation, people I know from there can be asset rich but cash poor that is because their wealth can look like this:
~500k in a 401k
~100k in an IRA
~house worth 1 million+
~30k in the kid's college fund
~200k in retirement funds/other funds
~500k in unmatured stock options, hoping these will be worth more as they mature (if these are from the big 4 etc you are set)

etc, so yeah they can be cash poor but they can have millions in assets fairly fast. Take a couple working there, I know one and their combined income is 600k, they bought a house fairly fast by saying oh I think we will save 200k-300k a year for a couple of years, and the house was paid off, worth 1.5 million. It sure can be expensive to live there and I think most of them being cash poor can be due to rent and the expensive lifestyle, the ones who are more frugal are doing pretty great. The cost of living there is about 175% of here, so it's not as stark as people think but with lower taxes, more choice of what they spend and with smart decisions they can do great, people live there on a fraction of what a developer earns. There are plenty of net worth threads online for people in the bay area that people can look at. Downsides are less holidays, expensive healthcare etc.

There are cheaper places to live in the US with similar salaries AFAIK.

Itzy wrote: »

Multinationals can always offer more to a new hire, especially graduates. However, in my own experience and not that of everyone else, the year on year pay increments are pretty low.

Yeah that is what I have heard, do other people have different experience?
I don't think starting salary matters, my salary was completely different after a year and two years. For a first job you want to just take a job you think will be good for you.

Elessar

Afaik Workday offer significant starting salaries for grads (40-45k) plus benefits like 27 days holidays.

(Sidenote: It's very disheartening to see grads earning significantly more than me, even though I'm 1.5y years doing development and app support. Ugh)

L.Jenkins

Elessar wrote: »

Afaik Workday offer significant starting salaries for grads (40-45k) plus benefits like 27 days holidays.

(Sidenote: It's very disheartening to see grads earning significantly more than me, even though I'm 1.5y years doing development and app support. Ugh)

The only possible solutions to that would be (1) Ask for a pay rise or (2) move to a company willing to pay you what your worth.

Spunge

i graduated in 2011 with BSc in computing, mostly doing games/graphics. Started as a dev in 2012, did a few months of ASP.NET, then about 10 months of android development, then since then pretty much all ruby on rails, though im trying to improve my front end skills, like js/angularjs and css, though i dont get much chance to touch the front end code coz the other devs dont want me near it.

i assume id only really get a good wage for a rails job, its about nearly 3 years experience now ?
any idea how much id get?
ive only worked in startups though so ive made about the same as the dole every year
finally got a distance contract i can do in my own time which is great, but its only temporary. id really prefer that life than 9-5 office job though.

OfflerCrocGod

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Rather disheartening looking at figures here vs the US isn't it? Where grads get more than tech leads here.

It's also worth looking at London, there are no visa issues and you can get perm roles for ~€100K+ (~£75K) for front end senior devs. London wages have been given a big boost with the € weakness this last year.

Elessar

Itzy wrote: »

The only possible solutions to that would be (1) Ask for a pay rise or (2) move to a company willing to pay you what your worth.

I know. I certainly won't get a payrise. The area I work in is quite niche and there are very few jobs that match what I do. I don't know if I'm good enough to be a full time developer (always doubting myself!) and if I stay in app support I'll reach my salary ceiling pretty quick, never getting to a level id like to be at. It's hard to know what to do. Maybe stick to this area, although niche, salaries will be better, or branch out into something else, risking being too generalised. Who knows. Rant over

Elessar

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

It's also worth looking at London, there are no visa issues and you can get perm roles for ~€100K+ (~£75K) for front end senior devs. London wages have been given a big boost with the € weakness this last year.

If I was looking at London I'd be looking at contract day-rate roles. Lots going and you're looking at significantly better rates than here. As an example, a contract oracle dev friend of mine left his job recently (despite being asked to stay on permanent or contract) for London and he's getting a good 30-40% more for the same work, and he was on an excellent rate.

14ned

Spunge wrote: »

i graduated in 2011 with BSc in computing, mostly doing games/graphics. Started as a dev in 2012, did a few months of ASP.NET, then about 10 months of android development, then since then pretty much all ruby on rails, though im trying to improve my front end skills, like js/angularjs and css, though i dont get much chance to touch the front end code coz the other devs dont want me near it.

i assume id only really get a good wage for a rails job, its about nearly 3 years experience now ?
any idea how much id get?
ive only worked in startups though so ive made about the same as the dole every year
finally got a distance contract i can do in my own time which is great, but its only temporary. id really prefer that life than 9-5 office job though.

You're likely currently stuck in the trap between being considered a novice and being considered a "full stack" developer. Becoming seen as "full stack" doesn't just automatically happen with years of experience, though if your job just happens to have you tackle a wide range of problems then it can mean that, but ultimately this isn't on your employer, it's on you to make yourself seen as a full stack developer.

For me, much earlier in my career, that meant investing about 20 hours per week out of work on upskilling by working on highly visible open source projects which are great additions to your CV because a Google search will prove them (best add proof URLs to your CV for each bit). If you do that for two or three years, you should find your marketability will rise significantly.

Good pay isn't automatic in development any more than in medicine or anywhere else. You invest in yourself, work very hard when young, and you'll see the returns later in life - hopefully low six figure incomes by your thirties, with a bit of luck much more by the time you are fifty. It is still possible to retire aged 50 in Ireland from top end programming with a healthy private pension having never partaken in a startup - few professions allow that possibility at all.

Niall

Tar.Aldarion

Spunge wrote: »

i graduated in 2011 with BSc in computing, mostly doing games/graphics. Started as a dev in 2012, did a few months of ASP.NET, then about 10 months of android development, then since then pretty much all ruby on rails, though im trying to improve my front end skills, like js/angularjs and css, though i dont get much chance to touch the front end code coz the other devs dont want me near it.

i assume id only really get a good wage for a rails job, its about nearly 3 years experience now ?
any idea how much id get?
ive only worked in startups though so ive made about the same as the dole every year
finally got a distance contract i can do in my own time which is great, but its only temporary. id really prefer that life than 9-5 office job though.

Apply to a job with what you've got after 3 years experience you should be quite well paid tbh.

L.Jenkins

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Who offers 40-50k for grads here?

In 2011, I was offered 37,000 euro per year + VHI + Pension + upto 5% annual bonus and annual pay increment.

Tar.Aldarion

Not to get too personal but what are the pay increments like there if you stayed long? Personally I started in a small company with much less pay than that but big bonus' and raises.
That was a great starting package you got there.