Would you abide by a Union suggestion to not vote FG/Lab in General Election?

RealJohn

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Generally I tend to ignore any Union suggestion nowadays and make up my own mind.
Although I fear there's a little dark voice deep down whispering at me to 'vote FF, vote FF, vote FF'.
I know the whole JC reform was actually kicked off by Batt O keeffe, but, I wouldn;t mind seeing a return to the drawing board that FF might bring (unlike Ruairi Quinn and JOS telling us the way it's going to be, no matter what the vote is!).
Anyone else contemplating it?

I'm inclined to vote FF anyway for several reasons, the main ones being that FG and Labour have shown complete and utter disdain for the people of Ireland, lying openly to us and kowtowing to their European masters in preference to the people they're supposed to represent at every turn, and I don't mean just public servants but the entire population of this island (and apparently now not even declaring a national holiday for the centenary of the Easter rising), all the while taking credit for the economic recovery, such that it is (even though they did nothing but implement what they were told from abroad) and blaming FF for all the problems (which would be fair enough if I believed for a second that they wouldn't have done the exact same thing had they been in power at the time).

FF are far from perfect but I don't remember them ever cutting our pay while telling us that they weren't cutting our pay. I don't remember them ever telling teachers that it didn't matter how we vote because they'd be going ahead with their 'agreement' whether we like it or not. It wasn't FF who broke the Croke Park agreement in the first place (and what exactly is the point of an industrial agreement if one side can decide that it doesn't suit them anymore and just break it?), forcing us into Haddington and now trying to force us into Landsdowne. FF actually got us an exemption from having to pay water charges like the rest of the EU and this government are throwing that away. FF also put a law on the books to say that we couldn't be charged for domestic water use and I've yet to have it explained to me why this government are being allowed to ignore it.

No, FF have a lot to answer for but they're not nearly as bad as FG or Labour (and let's not even talk about SF).

katydid

RealJohn wrote: »

I'm inclined to vote FF anyway for several reasons, the main ones being that FG and Labour have shown complete and utter disdain for the people of Ireland, lying openly to us and kowtowing to their European masters in preference to the people they're supposed to represent at every turn, and I don't mean just public servants but the entire population of this island (and apparently now not even declaring a national holiday for the centenary of the Easter rising), all the while taking credit for the economic recovery, such that it is (even though they did nothing but implement what they were told from abroad) and blaming FF for all the problems (which would be fair enough if I believed for a second that they wouldn't have done the exact same thing had they been in power at the time).

FF are far from perfect but I don't remember them ever cutting our pay while telling us that they weren't cutting our pay. I don't remember them ever telling teachers that it didn't matter how we vote because they'd be going ahead with their 'agreement' whether we like it or not. It wasn't FF who broke the Croke Park agreement in the first place (and what exactly is the point of an industrial agreement if one side can decide that it doesn't suit them anymore and just break it?), forcing us into Haddington and now trying to force us into Landsdowne. FF actually got us an exemption from having to pay water charges like the rest of the EU and this government are throwing that away. FF also put a law on the books to say that we couldn't be charged for domestic water use and I've yet to have it explained to me why this government are being allowed to ignore it.

No, FF have a lot to answer for but they're not nearly as bad as FG or Labour (and let's not even talk about SF).

I don't understand the logic of voting for FF because FG/Labour are dishonest. I mean, hello...have you forgotten the shenanigans of FF over the past thirty or forty years? Not to mention how they brought us into the mess we are in now.

FG/Labour learned about dishonesty, cronyism etc. from the masters.

acequion

Reading you guys I'm even more confused about who I'll vote for. Well at least I know who I won't vote for and that's FG and Lab because I very much agree with what RealJohn says and I feel very real antipathy towards them for the way they have treated us. Following orders is spot on,that's all they did. It's the easiest thing in the world to follow orders.Head down,do what you're told and to fcuk with whoever gets hurt in the process. I despise Enda Kenny and once I had the misfortune to be in the same room as Ruari Quinn and wow could you feel the arrogance.It came off him in waves!

But FF! Jesus I don't know. Now granted they're closer to the people as in their voters than the other shower and no they're not as despotic. And while yes dishonesty is their middle name you'd wonder if we had a Charlie Haughy in power around the time of the bail out, would we not have got a better deal. He was one tough cookie. But that's beside the point and they're right wing too so I just don't know.

Why are you all so against the shinners? Now don't get me wrong,I aint no shinner and have never even contemplated voting for them before but are they really so bad? Mary Lou makes a lot of sense and they're the left. Maybe too far left? Is that the problem?

2011abc

Sin Fein , AAA , PBP Alliance and Independents

FF

Labour

FG

Renua

The last four only because I've heard the best way to NOT get someone elected under PR system ( certainly with YOUR vote) is to vote all the way down the list and have them in last place

People really have short memories if supporting FF although they are undoubtedly the lesser of two evils compared with current govt but make no mistake they're both evil .

This could be all over in 6 months guys .(It was obvious from anti SF attacks in media in last few months the dirty tricks campaign is well under way )For Gods sake make them count .Absolutely SHOCKED that govt are not having national holiday for 1916 Centenary .

For any 'Anyone but Sinn Fein ' folk here's a little light reading (Wikipedia) about Enda's predecessors ( and yes they're called Blueshirts because they were facist wannabes during the Spanish Civil War /30s era

"That night, 6/7 March, nine Republican prisoners were taken from Ballymullen Barracks in Tralee to Ballyseedy crossroads and tied to a landmine which was then detonated, after which the survivors were machine-gunned. One of the prisoners, Stephen Fuller, was blown to safety by the blast of the explosion. He was taken in at the nearby home of Michael and Hannah Curran. They cared for him and although badly injured, he survived. Fuller later became a Fianna Fáil TD. The Free State troops in nearby Tralee had prepared nine coffins and were surprised to find only the scattered remains of eight bodies on the scene. There was a riot when the bodies were brought back to Tralee, where the enraged relatives of the killed prisoners broke open the coffins as a statement of contempt for the Free State and its troops,[28] and in an effort to identify the dead.[29]"

They also executed about triple the number the British did around the same time .

katydid

acequion wrote: »

.

Why are you all so against the shinners? Now don't get me wrong,I aint no shinner and have never even contemplated voting for them before but are they really so bad? Mary Lou makes a lot of sense and they're the left. Maybe too far left? Is that the problem?

Support for terrorism - defending the murderers of Garda McCabe, for example. Then there's covering up for child abuse...

2011abc

katydid wrote: »

Support for terrorism - defending the murderers of Garda McCabe, for example. Then there's covering up for child abuse...

Got an opinion on Shannon being used as a stop off for US 'rendition flights' ? Not think the church were let off very lightly by successive governments for THEIR child abuse ?

Mairia Cahill was used as a ( to quote Independent for once not far wrong ) political toy .She has just been appointed a Labour senator .

katydid

2011abc wrote: »

Got an opinion on Shannon being used as a stop off for US 'rendition flights' ? Not think the church were let off very lightly by successive governments for THEIR child abuse ?

And that makes it ok for SF to support terrorism and child abuse?? For the leader of SF to cover up for his child abusing brother who was working with young people in this state. Surely, as a teacher, that would concern you?

2011abc

Got a link to him 'covering up for his brother '? I assumed you meant the other case which was dragged up just as SF seemed to be gaining political momentum down here .so far as I'm aware he was never accused of any such cover up regarding his brother .SF do not support terrorism , quite the opposite . Standard practice amongst corrupt governments is to portray their rivals as 'terrorists ' , you know like the terrorist Paul Murphy who kidnapped Joan Burton .

By the way by no means am I a dyed in the wool 'Shinner' but seriously isn't it time to give someone else a chance after 85-90 years .Could they possibly be any worse than FF/ FG ?

katydid

2011abc wrote: »

Got a link to him 'covering up for his brother '? I assumed you meant the other case which was dragged up just as SF seemed to be gaining political momentum down here .so far as I'm aware he was never accused of any such cover up regarding his brother .SF do not support terrorism , quite the opposite . Standard practice amongst corrupt governments is to portray their rivals as 'terrorists ' , you know like the terrorist Paul Murphy who kidnapped Joan Burton .

By the way by no means am I a dyed in the wool 'Shinner' but seriously isn't it time to give someone else a chance after 85-90 years .Could they possibly be any worse than FF/ FG ?

You can't be serious. You want a LINK to the news that was all over the media about this incident? Well, ok, if you really insist...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/brothers-sex-abuse-case-comes-back-to-haunt-gerry-adams-30272460.html

" Gerry Adams told the court that in 2000 Liam admitted to him that on one occasion he had sexually assaulted his daughter.
It was not until 2009 that Gerry Adams told police about his brother's partial confession."

or

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/liam-adams-brother-of-sinn-feins-gerry-adams-found-guilty-of-raping-his-daughter-29625476.html

"He told the court he confronted his brother about the allegations during a meeting in Buncrana, Co Donegal, in 1987 and Liam Adams had denied the abuse.
He then revealed his brother later confessed while they were out walking together in the rain in Dundalk, Co Louth, in 2000."

Liam Adams worked in this state in 2003, on a youth community project. While he was working with teenagers, his brother was aware he was a paedophile, but stood by and said nothing.

You really should keep up to date with the news.

I agree totally it's time to give someone else a chance. But to go from FG/Lab to Sinn Féin??? Would you trust the affairs of state to those...I won't use the word I'd like to use. Martin Ferris as Minister for Defence?

ted1

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'd love if all the Education Unions gone together and suggested NOT voting for FG/Lab in the GE in Nov/Feb until we get New JC/CP Hours/FEMPI/Pension Levy etc sorted or off the table. Pay restored as per agreements to date etc.

How many 1000s of public servants and teachers are there in the country? It'd be a fairly potent threat.

Who would you suggest to vote for?

deiseindublin

I posted earlier in this thread that I'm at a loss as to who to vote for but I know it WON'T be FG/Lab.

I was suggesting that it would be a huge lobby group if the threat were made by the way. Obviously everybody will vote their own way in the end, be it FF, FG, SF etc.

I do think though that we have so many unions that our voice is fragmented and ineffective.

2011abc

So why isn't he in jail then ?God knows Theyve tried hard enough .Sure even more recently the PSNI chief was forced to reopen a case after categorically stating SF had no involvement in terrorism .Unionist and our govt's agenda overlapping ? Sure hasn't it been proven in recent months a fortune in NAMA money went to Unionist bigwigs ?


Anyway if there isn't a massive concerted anti FF/FG / Lab / Renua campaign they will be back in some form .

katydid

2011abc wrote: »

So why isn't he in jail then ?God knows Theyve tried hard enough .Sure even more recently the PSNI chief was forced to reopen a case after categorically stating SF had no involvement in terrorism .Unionist and our govt's agenda overlapping ? Sure hasn't it been proven in recent months a fortune in NAMA money went to Unionist bigwigs ?


Anyway if there isn't a massive concerted anti FF/FG / Lab / Renua campaign they will be back in some form .

Why isn't he in jail? Good question. He's coated with more Teflon than Bertie Aherne. The issue of the Unionists and Nama has nothing to do with the fact that he knew his brother was a child abuser, he stood by while his brother worked with young people, and as a teacher, that should worry you.

2011abc

katydid wrote: »

Why isn't he in jail? Good question. He's coated with more Teflon than Bertie Aherne. The issue of the Unionists and Nama has nothing to do with the fact that he knew his brother was a child abuser, he stood by while his brother worked with young people, and as a teacher, that should worry you.

I'd be more worried about the fact you keep telling me I should be worried .Maybe a TC Fitness To Teach hearing might sort me out ?!

acequion

I can see both sides in the argument about Sinn Fein. But I still think anyone would be better than FF/FG/Lab/Renua who're all clones of each other. Five more years of right wing government and where will we public sector workers be?

katydid

acequion wrote: »

I can see both points in the argument about Sinn Fein. But I still think anyone would be better than FF/FG?Lab/Renua who're all clones of each other. Five more years of right wing government and where will we public sector workers be?

ANYONE? Supporters of terrorism and child abuse?

Surely we must have some standards?

acequion

katydid wrote: »

ANYONE? Supporters of terrorism and child abuse?

Surely we must have some standards?

Yes I stand over what I said. That child abuse issue concerns one person in Sinn Fein, not all of them.

However I said I could see both sides,yours and the other posters. And I also wouldn't fancy Martin Ferris as Defence minister and I most likely won't vote for them but perhaps we're not being fair and are buying into a public perception. I just don't know.

2011abc

acequion wrote: »

I can see both sides in the argument about Sinn Fein. But I still think anyone would be better than FF/FG?Lab/Renua who're all clones of each other. Five more years of right wing government and where will we public sector workers be?

Well I reckon it's close to Game Over in UK and USA , probably our last chance for real representative democracy also this time round . Once TTIP is in we're finished .Meanwhile over here Minister for Agriculture's brother is on board of largest agricultural company while Minister for the Environment's brother is on board of an American based water conglomerate .Scarey how real 1984 seems 31 years later . Doublespeak , permanent state of war , cameras EVERYWHERE etc

2forjoy

I consider myself a labourer but would not vote Labourer

katydid

acequion wrote: »

Yes I stand over what I said. That child abuse issue concerns one person in Sinn Fein, not all of them.

However I said I could see both sides,yours and the other posters. And I also wouldn't fancy Martin Ferris as Defence minister and I most likely won't vote for them but perhaps we're not being fair and are buying into a public perception. I just don't know.

The child abuse issue concerns the LEADER. A leader who is supported and consistently re-elected. What does that say about the members? And it's not just his actions; you surely must have heard about the can of worms Maria Cahill opened concerning other cover ups of abuse within SF? It's rotten to the core.

Not only that. How can you explain their standing by the murderers of Garda McCabe and trying to protect them from serving time for their crime, claiming that they should have been excused because of the GFI, even though the crime was committed after the agreement? Is that the behaviour of supporters of democracy and peace?

It would seriously worry me to have such people in any position of power in this state. Things are bad enough, but going from the frying pan into the fire is not the alternative.

RealJohn

katydid wrote: »

I don't understand the logic of voting for FF because FG/Labour are dishonest. I mean, hello...have you forgotten the shenanigans of FF over the past thirty or forty years? Not to mention how they brought us into the mess we are in now.

FG/Labour learned about dishonesty, cronyism etc. from the masters.

The fact is that the entire Irish political system was and probably still is corrupt. Anyone who didn't know that was either willfully ignoring it or was simply too stupid or naïve to realise what was blindingly obvious to the rest of us. Our problem is that we accepted it. We just accepted that that was the way politics was done in this country.

FF are no worse than FG, Labour and certainly not worse than SF and they have the advantage of having a track record of actually fighting for Ireland in Europe rather than bending over every time Angela Merkel snaps her fingers.

acequion

katydid wrote: »

The child abuse issue concerns the LEADER. A leader who is supported and consistently re-elected. What does that say about the members? And it's not just his actions; you surely must have heard about the can of worms Maria Cahill opened concerning other cover ups of abuse within SF? It's rotten to the core.

Not only that. How can you explain their standing by the murderers of Garda McCabe and trying to protect them from serving time for their crime, claiming that they should have been excused because of the GFI, even though the crime was committed after the agreement? Is that the behaviour of supporters of democracy and peace?

It would seriously worry me to have such people in any position of power in this state. Things are bad enough, but going from the frying pan into the fire is not the alternative.

Would you stop shouting at me please katydid! I respect that you feel strongly about this but I don't, ok and that's my prerogative. So let's leave it there and not derail this very interesting thread.

katydid

acequion wrote: »

Would you stop shouting at me please katydid! I respect that you feel strongly about this but I don't, ok and that's my prerogative. So let's leave it there and not derail this very interesting thread.

Who's shouting? (Hint, could it be the person using exclamation marks?)

I asked you pertinent questions regarding the bona fides of a political party - if you don't want to answer them, that's fine. But there's no need for hyperbole or hysteria.

Funny how when YOU contribute, it's interesting, but when someone comes along and challenges your statements, it's "derailing"...

katydid

2011abc wrote: »

I'd be more worried about the fact you keep telling me I should be worried .Maybe a TC Fitness To Teach hearing might sort me out ?!

I'm worried that you're not worried about the possibility of a Sinn Fein member, someone who supports a party leader who has covered up for a paedophile working with children in this state, becoming the Minister for Education...

acequion

katydid wrote: »

Who's shouting? (Hint, could it be the person using exclamation marks?)

I asked you pertinent questions regarding the bona fides of a political party - if you don't want to answer them, that's fine. But there's no need for hyperbole or hysteria.

Funny how when YOU contribute, it's interesting, but when someone comes along and challenges your statements, it's "derailing"...

Jesus katydid will you ever stop trying to provoke! Using capitals is universally known as shouting. To ask you not to do that is not hyperbole or hysteria,just a basic request. Also,please stop taking words out of my mouth.I said that this thread is interesting,not me.

Really your tone is out of order. I repeat that I don't feel as strongly about the credentials of SF as you do,which indeed is my prerogative. And no I don't want to answer your questions because I'm not interested in getting further into it. So that's all I want to say on the matter. I really hope you will leave it at that.

acequion

I think moral outrage,feigned or otherwise has become a new religion in Ireland. And it is dangerous because it hinders proper discussion and obscures the facts. It is very easy to discredit anybody nowadays by pointing the finger of blame for some wrongdoing. I find it very puritanical. Not to mention hypocritical.

But it's undoubtedly effective as there are countless examples of high profile discrediting. All it takes is to cast some aspersions on an individual or group and the high moral grounders of Ireland are off as common sense falls by the way.

evolving_doors

OK, there's skeletons in every parties closet.
Maybe if we could bring it back to the realm of education then that'd be great!
MOD

katydid

acequion wrote: »

Jesus katydid will you ever stop trying to provoke! Using capitals is universally known as shouting. To ask you not to do that is not hyperbole or hysteria,just a basic request. Also,please stop taking words out of my mouth.I said that this thread is interesting,not me.

Really your tone is out of order. I repeat that I don't feel as strongly about the credentials of SF as you do,which indeed is my prerogative. And no I don't want to answer your questions because I'm not interested in getting further into it. So that's all I want to say on the matter. I really hope you will leave it at that.

I used capitals for one word, to save me the bother of bolding it. Get over yourself...

I didn't say you said you were interesting. I said that you say the thread is interesting when YOU are contributing, but when someone comes along that challenges what you say, all of a sudden, they are derailing the thread. One rule for you, another for other people.

As I said, if you don't want to answer my questions, fine. All you had to do is say. The questions remain there, however, and are pertinent to this discussion.

If you don't like the "tone" in a debate about politics, maybe you should stay out of debates about politics. This thread may have deviated from the first post, as so many do, but it is still relevant to discuss who might be in charge of our country in the not so distant future. As teachers, who work every day with young people, we should be super sensitive to issues which would affect them, such as having a government which defends terrorism and supports a leader who covers up child abuse.

katydid

It's not the skeletons that are the problem. It's the living bodies.

D4RK ONION

Whoa whoa whoa. Let's reel this in a bit. Either this thread returns to the topic of it's title, or it gets locked. Let's all cool down a bit. If you want to discuss politics in general and in depth, may I suggest the Politics forum. Worth noting that their moderation is a lot stricter than most other forums on boards. Read their charter before you get stuck in.

acequion wrote: »

Would you stop shouting at me please katydid! I respect that you feel strongly about this but I don't, ok and that's my prerogative. So let's leave it there and not derail this very interesting thread.

You are not a moderator of this forum. If you have a problem with someone's post, or feel a thread is going completely off topic, you click this button on the post . Back-seat modding is against the charter.

katydid wrote: »

I used capitals for one word, to save me the bother of bolding it. Get over yourself...

Katydid, if you have a problem with someone, you report the post. Posts with this level of aggression in the future will get you carded or banned or both.

Also a reminder that discussing moderation on thread is against the charter. You PM the mod in question. Thanks