The Homelessness Crisis

Deise Vu

Another day, another story about our Homeless crisis:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/humanitarian-issue-as-1500-children-are-left-without-a-home-31563491.html

Last week it was a record 120 people sleeping rough in Dublin, this week we get a fuller picture that there are 700 Families AND 1,500 children in homeless accommodation in Ireland (are those children not part of the families in question?). The article states there is a 400% increase in demand for services and uses terms like 'humanitarian crisis' and 'probably the worst I have seen' (The CEO of Depaul Ireland).

Am I the only person who is thinking WTF? Only 120 people sleep rough and approximately 3,000 in temporary accommodation? I have never once seen anyone sleeping rough who wasn't a junkie, an alcoholic or mentally unstable and sometimes all three. As for the rest, it must be humiliating and extremely unsettling to have to move in and out of Hotels and Hostels or other temporary accommodation but a humanitarian crisis? Give me a break.

How does this issue get such enormous media attention. Is it some folk memory from the 1840's or is it the plethora of quangos and charities that deal with this perennial 'crisis'? It seems to me that the salaries expended on solving the crisis would more than buy 700 homes (which is a 400% increase on last years requirement!!!).

There will always be homelessness due to marriage breakdowns, mental breakdowns and other misfortunes but can it not be dealt with without the quangos and media making out that it is akin to Pol Pot's killing fields.

Feel free to invoke Godwin but, I don't care, I just had to get that off my chest.

Pink Lemons

Yeah, screw all the homeless people :rolleyes:

NachoBusiness

Was down in O'Connell Street yesterday where there was a march on for animal rights and some junkie prick at the Spire started roaring and shouting and asking why weren't they doing something for cruelty to the homeless.

If you're on the streets and you're choosing to buy heroin, then in my view you're not homeless at all.

If I have money for a B&B and choose to spend the money on anything else and so have to sleep on the streets, that's a lifestyle choice.

Help genuine homeless people that find themselves in that predicament through no fault of their own, but junkies clog the system up and it results in people that could do with help, never getting it.

Datallus

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Was down in O'Connell Street yesterday where there was a march on for animal rights and some junkie prick at the Spire started roaring and shouting and asking why weren't they doing something for cruelty to the homeless.

Junkie prick? Or philosopher-hero?

Deise Vu

Pink Lemons wrote: »

Yeah, screw all the homeless people :rolleyes:

That's not my point, I have every sympathy for someone who lost their home or, worse, had to flee from it but it is overblown and exagerrated. It effects a tiny fraction of way less than one tenth of 1% of the population and the solution is temporary accommodation for those who want it. Given the choice between being homeless or being in chronic pain on one of our endless HSE waiting lists, I would take our strangely elastic definition of homeless any day.

NachoBusiness

Datallus wrote: »

Junkie prick? Or philosopher-hero?

The former.

Though if I ever see someone raising homeless people in cages so they can then eat them, I might reconsider my choice.

mad muffin

Sorry. No time for the homeless Irish. Too busy saving Syrian refugees.

Datallus

It could be said that our economic system raises people in houses so it can eat them.

Maybe we're socially trained to treat those who choose another way of life, free of the shackles of the money-owners, with such contempt?

starling

Deise Vu wrote: »

I have never once seen anyone sleeping rough who wasn't a junkie, an alcoholic or mentally unstable and sometimes all three.

Not sure what point you're making there? Apologies if I'm taking you up wrong, but it sounds a bit like you're implying they deserve to be where they are

As for the temporary accommodation/hostels etc, I don't know how experience you have of them but they really are very difficult places to be even without children to worry about. It's not like going away for a week to a nice b&b on your holidays. And being put out in the morning and not allowed back in til the evening is no laughing matter.

Deise Vu

mad muffin wrote: »

Sorry. No time for the homeless Irish. Too busy saving Syrian refugees.

Syrian refugees are fleeing war between two sides who believe in barbarism not seen since biblical times, Al Asaad and ISIS. They are leaving virtually all their possessions behind and getting into death-trap boats in an effort to flee. They are passing through countries that openly despise them and, often, they cannot speak the language of the country they are hoping will take them in.

In Ireland, if you haven't got a parent, sibling or friend to take you in you call social services and, worst case scenario, you are put up in a hotel.

In the circumstances I am delighted you are getting your priorities right.

Retrovertigo

mad muffin wrote: »

Sorry. No time for the homeless Irish. Too busy saving Syrian refugees.

Well that didn't take long.

/golfclap

seamus

The figures here are all over the place. Lots of 300% this and 1,500 that, but so far nobody is able to give any clear indication as to whether this issue is on the rise.

For example, http://www.homelessdublin.ie/publications?sort=year,ASC&tags=25

If you look at the publication called, "Counted In, 2008", it states there were 2,144 households comprising 2,366 adults, were classified as homeless in Dublin alone, in 2008.

Yet the article in the OP states, "Currently there are more than 700 families and 1,500 children in homeless accommodation in Ireland."

I'm going to guess that the Indo's reporting is shoddy here, because it usually is.

But this is the half of the problem. The number of rough sleepers at the moment isn't historically high. And nobody seems to be able to tell us whether the number of families availing of temporary accommodation is actually massive at the moment or if there's something else going on.

Can anyone produce any actual figures that can give us an historical perspective here? Or are the figures being deliberately obfuscated to try and attach the "crisis" tag to this?

Certainly for rough sleepers, I do accept that there are some good reasons for not availing of overnight accomodation, but 99.9% of those who sleep rough choose to do so. That's an addiction and mental health problem moreso than a homeless one.

arayess

Datallus wrote: »

It could be said that our economic system raises people in houses so it can eat them.

Maybe we're socially trained to treat those who choose another way of life, free of the shackles of the money-owners, with such contempt?

I'd admire them but they seem to always come back from some of this glorious tax payers money.
living the dream from from "the man " is a great concept but in reality those people still collect their dole.

I agree with the OP , solving homelessness isn't an easy task. Many of those homeless don't want help for whatever reason mental health ,drugs etc.

All we can really do is provide accommodation for them but we see with the small amount fo accommodation we do have some homeless still get barred from there due to their issues and anti social behaviour. Sometimes you just cannot help some people so bar having a soup kitchen what can you do?

Deise Vu

starling wrote: »

Not sure what point you're making there? Apologies if I'm taking you up wrong, but it sounds a bit like you're implying they deserve to be where they are

As for the temporary accommodation/hostels etc, I don't know how experience you have of them but they really are very difficult places to be even without children to worry about. It's not like going away for a week to a nice b&b on your holidays. And being put out in the morning and not allowed back in til the evening is no laughing matter.

The point is that it is not the availability of homes that is the issue for these people, it is their inability to cope with life as 99.999999% of the population know it.They have no intention of getting clean (in every sense of the word) and, to be perfectly honest, I would rather help someone who wants help.

As regards temporary accommodation see my post on the Syrians. The emphasis is on the word 'temporary'. Maybe I am cold-hearted but I am at a loss as too how we could have immediately available suitable permanent accommodation for everyone that finds themselves in temporary difficulty.

And I have to keep emphasizing the numbers are miniscule and, in my opinion, the difficulty is far closer to a temporary inconvenience than to a humanitarian crisis.

VisibleGorilla

I don't understand how an actual family can be homeless, surely two combined social welfare payments, along with rent allowance, fuel supplement, medical card, child beneficent, back to school allowance, etc.. would cover rent + bills?

People want to live in the most expensive city, that's the issue.

Move out of Dublin.

JustTheOne

Sure people wanted to burn the dail down
after Jonathan Currie died.

No-one ever says he sold 2 houses bought for him to fund his habit or he refused accommodation the night he died.

Yesterday there was a story in the daily mirror about a baby dying in England who was in temporary accommodation. All the comments under it where blaming enda. They didn't even bother to read it didn't happen in Ireland.

There is a section in Ireland who really don't have a clue how the real world works.


England have a worst housing crisis than us with 60.000 in temporary accommodation.

There isn't a homeless crisis more than there's a housing crisis. The fact is that there are millions of euros worth of property sitting in ghost estates that could easily be used to home the majority, if not all, of the needy people.

Datallus

Deleted User wrote: »

There isn't a homeless crisis more than there's a housing crisis. The fact is that there are millions of euros worth of property sitting in ghost estates that could easily be used to home the majority, if not all, of the needy people.

Great, I'm sure the people already living there will love that idea!

JustTheOne

Datallus wrote: »

Great, I'm sure the people already living there will love that idea!

Or people who had to move out of Dublin to afford somewhere to live. Let's just give people houses once they say their homeless.

AlexisM

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

I don't understand how an actual family can be homeless, surely two combined social welfare payments, along with rent allowance, fuel supplement, medical card, child beneficent, back to school allowance, etc.. would cover rent + bills?

Deleted User wrote: »

There isn't a homeless crisis more than there's a housing crisis.

There's an example in today's IT of how a family can be homeless; and agreeing with the point that this is a housing crisis rather than a homelessness one.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/homeless-crisis-nine-live-in-two-bedroom-ballyfermot-house-1.2368618

This family is homeless/houseless but have been taken in by the grandmother rather than face 2 years in a B&B/hostel/hotel. They could afford rent but no-one will rent to kids or at an affordable (to them) price. So there's 9 people in a 2-bed house which must be pretty miserable.

JustTheOne

AlexisM wrote: »

There's an example in today's IT of how a family can be homeless; and agreeing with the point that this is a housing crisis rather than a homelessness one.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/homeless-crisis-nine-live-in-two-bedroom-ballyfermot-house-1.2368618

This family is homeless/houseless but have been taken in by the grandmother rather than face 2 years in a B&B/hostel/hotel. They could afford rent but no-one will rent to kids or at an affordable (to them) price. So there's 9 people in a 2-bed house which must be pretty miserable.

I seen a mother last week in the paper living in a hotel for 2 years but has 3 kids and one is newborn??

Like can you not wait to find somewhere stable before having another child.

arayess

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

I don't understand how an actual family can be homeless, surely two combined social welfare payments, along with rent allowance, fuel supplement, medical card, child beneficent, back to school allowance, etc.. would cover rent + bills?

People want to live in the most expensive city, that's the issue.

Move out of Dublin.

you do know the medical card isn't made of actual cash...?

you know if they really wanted a house the husband would pimp out his missus :rolleyes:

VisibleGorilla

arayess wrote: »

you do know the medical card isn't made of actual cash...?

you know if they really wanted a house the husband would pimp out his missus :rolleyes:

Did I say it was? This post is stupid as hell.

The card takes away any financial burden that GP visits or medication costs would bring, no?

Retrovertigo

VisibleGorilla wrote: »

I don't understand how an actual family can be homeless, surely two combined social welfare payments, along with rent allowance, fuel supplement, medical card, child beneficent, back to school allowance, etc.. would cover rent + bills?

People want to live in the most expensive city, that's the issue.

Move out of Dublin.

Ignorance is no excuse for your lack of understanding.

Sometimes families do not constitute two parents, it could be because of anything from a breakdown in relationships to even death.

I suggest you educate yourself, it will benefit you in the long run.

asherbassad

Deise Vu wrote: »

Another day, another story about our Homeless crisis:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/humanitarian-issue-as-1500-children-are-left-without-a-home-31563491.html

Last week it was a record 120 people sleeping rough in Dublin, this week we get a fuller picture that there are 700 Families AND 1,500 children in homeless accommodation in Ireland (are those children not part of the families in question?). The article states there is a 400% increase in demand for services and uses terms like 'humanitarian crisis' and 'probably the worst I have seen' (The CEO of Depaul Ireland).

Am I the only person who is thinking WTF? Only 120 people sleep rough and approximately 3,000 in temporary accommodation? I have never once seen anyone sleeping rough who wasn't a junkie, an alcoholic or mentally unstable and sometimes all three. As for the rest, it must be humiliating and extremely unsettling to have to move in and out of Hotels and Hostels or other temporary accommodation but a humanitarian crisis? Give me a break.

How does this issue get such enormous media attention. Is it some folk memory from the 1840's or is it the plethora of quangos and charities that deal with this perennial 'crisis'? It seems to me that the salaries expended on solving the crisis would more than buy 700 homes (which is a 400% increase on last years requirement!!!).

There will always be homelessness due to marriage breakdowns, mental breakdowns and other misfortunes but can it not be dealt with without the quangos and media making out that it is akin to Pol Pot's killing fields.

Feel free to invoke Godwin but, I don't care, I just had to get that off my chest.

So you can see sleeping bag in a doorway with someone clearly inside the bag and you can tell just by looking that the person is a drug addict, alcoholic and / or mentally unstable?

That's some fucking skill you have there mate.

Wild Garlic

Deise Vu wrote: »

The point is that it is not the availability of homes that is the issue for these people, it is their inability to cope with life as 99.999999% of the population know it.They have no intention of getting clean (in every sense of the word) and, to be perfectly honest, I would rather help someone who wants help.

As regards temporary accommodation see my post on the Syrians. The emphasis is on the word 'temporary'. Maybe I am cold-hearted but I am at a loss as too how we could have immediately available suitable permanent accommodation for everyone that finds themselves in temporary difficulty.

And I have to keep emphasizing the numbers are miniscule and, in my opinion, the difficulty is far closer to a temporary inconvenience than to a humanitarian crisis.

Considering your first paragraph http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/methadone-i-d-love-to-get-this-out-of-my-system-1.2368806

Grayson

Retrovertigo wrote: »

Ignorance is no excuse for your lack of understanding.

Sometimes families do not constitute two parents, it could be because of anything from a breakdown in relationships to even death.

I suggest you educate yourself, it will benefit you in the long run.

But the point is that Dublin is very expensive. They could actually get a great place down the country for a fraction of what you'd pay in Dublin. A lot of the stories that we see are families that are homeless in Dublin because they can't afford the rent in Dublin or are unable to find a place that will take rent allowance in Dublin. I was looking a Dundalk on Daft last year. It's cheaper to rent a house there than a one bed in most of Dublin. The Dublin rental market is horrible for both the employed and unemployed. Many move outside Dublin. It just seems bad to call yourself homeless when the government will provide adequate resources for you and your family to live somewhere that's a bit cheaper.

biko

In Galway there are now homeless sleeping n almost every doorway down shop street. It's a new thing and come winter it will get very very cold indeed.

steddyeddy

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Was down in O'Connell Street yesterday where there was a march on for animal rights and some junkie prick at the Spire started roaring and shouting and asking why weren't they doing something for cruelty to the homeless.

If you're on the streets and you're choosing to buy heroin, then in my view you're not homeless at all.

If I have money for a B&B and choose to spend the money on anything else and so have to sleep on the streets, that's a lifestyle choice.

Help genuine homeless people that find themselves in that predicament through no fault of their own, but junkies clog the system up and it results in people that could do with help, never getting it.

You need to look up some science mate. I can recommended and nueropharmacology and addiction studies. Taking heroin once addicted as a choice isn't comparable with most other choices.

Look at the sort of families some addicts come from. If you came from similar I doubt the choices would be as clear cut.

Uncle Ben

Grayson wrote: »

But the point is that Dublin is very expensive. They could actually get a great place down the country for a fraction of what you'd pay in Dublin. A lot of the stories that we see are families that are homeless in Dublin because they can't afford the rent in Dublin or are unable to find a place that will take rent allowance in Dublin. I was looking a Dundalk on Daft last year. It's cheaper to rent a house there than a one bed in most of Dublin. The Dublin rental market is horrible for both the employed and unemployed. Many move outside Dublin. It just seems bad to call yourself homeless when the government will provide adequate resources for you and your family to live somewhere that's a bit cheaper.

Housing waiting lists have increased dramatically throughout the whole country. In Roscommon for instance there was almost a 100% increase, likewise in Westmeath and to add further pressure a lot of the income limits have either been reduced or have stayed static. For instance anyone on 27k plus in Roscommon Westmeath doesn't qualify for any rental assistance despite increasing rents.
It's a bit too easy to state send the homeless down the country.

Deise Vu

asherbassad wrote: »

So you can see sleeping bag in a doorway with someone clearly inside the bag and you can tell just by looking that the person is a drug addict, alcoholic and / or mentally unstable?

That's some fucking skill you have there mate.

Not when their in a sleeping bag no but if I was a betting man I know which way I would be betting. When they are up and about roaring and shouting in the street, drinking Linden Village, begging, fighting and generally being anti-social I draw what I believe to be reasonable conclusions.

And once again, I emphasize my point is that the numbers are a pinprick of the total population so why is it part of daily media headlines as if every second family was suffering and there were entire families living rough regularly.