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Maynooth train line ignored - what are our ministers doing.

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    #32
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,868 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    AlanG wrote: »
    You seem to be basing your argument on the mistaken idea that capacity at Connolly will not increase when in fact it will be increased from 12 to 20 trains per hour without Dart underground.

    Due to what?

    Even if you improve signalling there is a limit, and an incoming Maynooth line will be competing with added services on the northern line due to the Balbriggan extension.


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    #33
    rubberdiddies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 717 ✭✭✭rubberdiddies


    I'm not convinced that the Dart to Balbriggan is going to bring any sort of improvement to commuters there.

    In my opinion it will just increase journey times to stations beyond malahide because the Dart will stop at every station whereas the commuter trains currently don't. And no doubt once the Dart to Balbriggan is in place, the number of commuter trains will be significantly reduced. So unless I'm completely wrong I see this as longer journey times for commuters.


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    #34
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭AlanG


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Due to what?

    Even if you improve signalling there is a limit, and an incoming Maynooth line will be competing with added services on the northern line due to the Balbriggan extension.

    Due to the signalling upgrade project I mentioned twice earlier in this thread, There is a link to it above. At least if we had DART we would be in a position to compete for the increased capacity.Also DARTs are cheaper to run so you have a better chance of getting more frequent off peak services.


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    #35
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    The standing during peak is not fixable. I stand every day here in Berlin and the trains run every 3 minutes! It's peak time.


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    #36
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    murphaph wrote: »
    The standing during peak is not fixable. I stand every day here in Berlin and the trains run every 3 minutes! It's peak time.

    Standing is ok. Being like sardines less so.


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    #37
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Obviously I believe that public transport as currently provided in Dublin is a shambles and could and should be significantly improved with new underground rail lines and DART expansion, metro etc. but these things (in the unlikely event they get built) will be popular and their popularity will lead to them being heavily subscribed. We are often sardines too here in Berlin. Tokyo is even quite famous for it, and both cities have far superior public transport to Dublin. I imagine a vastly improved system in Dublin would be just as packed at peak time as it is now, that's all I'm saying.


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    #38
    TheMightyI
    Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭TheMightyI


    Modifying the train carriages on the Maynooth line would help. Too much room taken up by seats. Do people really need to sit for a <30 min journey? Cut the number of seats by half and free up more standing room would be my suggestion.


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    #39
    TheMightyI
    Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭TheMightyI


    Also, any update on the Royal Canal/Pelletstown station that was proposed last year?


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    #40
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    TheMightyI wrote: »
    Modifying the train carriages on the Maynooth line would help. Too much room taken up by seats. Do people really need to sit for a <30 min journey? Cut the number of seats by half and free up more standing room would be my suggestion.

    There much more room on the non-intercity trains for standing. Even have folding seats. Yet the intercity are much more common. IMO.

    Incidentally the journey time (Maynooth to Connolly) is 30~47 mins.


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    #41
    ongarboy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ongarboy


    TheMightyI wrote: »
    Also, any update on the Royal Canal/Pelletstown station that was proposed last year?

    Not sure but after years of inactivity, work has started on new homes in the area around the proposed train station location and according to the link below, a lot of new planning applications have been submitted for the completion of the developments around Rathborne/Pelletstown so the residential populations will be present in the near future to justify demand for the new station.

    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1842436


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    #42
    AGC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭AGC


    The areas along the Maynooth line are some of the best served by public transport in the capital. And it is improving.

    It is far from a priority. They would be investing money in something where it is needed elsewhere.


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    #43
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    AGC wrote: »
    The areas along the Maynooth line are some of the best served by public transport in the capital. And it is improving.

    It is far from a priority. They would be investing money in something where it is needed elsewhere.

    It certain better than a lot of areas. But among the best? What does that mean?

    For example. If you were to go for the train now at 12.07 the next train into city centre is in 40 mins. In comparison theres approx 3 darts in that time from Blackrock to the city centre.


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    #44
    AGC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭AGC


    beauf wrote: »
    It certain better than a lot of areas. But among the best? What does that mean?

    For example. If you were to go for the train now at 12.07 the next train into city centre is in 40 mins. In comparison theres approx 3 darts in that time from Blackrock to the city centre.

    Between 12.07 and 12.47 on a Thursday afternoon do you really think there is demand for trains? Or economically sensible?

    There would be a lot more demand for Dart, centrally located stations where people could be hopping around the city centre for meetings. A lot more business done between Clontarf Road and Lansdowne road than Maynooth - Drumcondra


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    #45
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭AlanG


    AGC wrote: »
    The areas along the Maynooth line are some of the best served by public transport in the capital. And it is improving.

    In what way is it improving? Off peak there is usually an hour between trains and the last change to the timetable significantly reduced the service to both Dunboyne and maynooth. How is that an improvement?
    You must not have much experience of other parts of the city - there are few with a worse service and none along a rail or Luas line with a worse public transport service.

    Can you point out one or two improvements rather than promises that have been implemented in the past couple of years?


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    #46
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭AlanG


    AGC wrote: »
    Between 12.07 and 12.47 on a Thursday afternoon do you really think there is demand for trains? Or economically sensible?

    There would be a lot more demand for Dart, ...


    Before the DART ran frequent services many stations on those lines had very little demand. It is very well recognised that providing frequent service on public transport creates demand. It is only when people can go to the station knowing the wait will be max 20 or 25 mins that you actually providing a service that will be embraced. It worked on the DART line and would work on our line. When a service is frequent it becomes second nature - hence the recent increases in DART frequencies even at off peak times.


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    #47
    AGC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭AGC


    AlanG wrote: »
    In what way is it improving? Off peak there is usually an hour between trains and the last change to the timetable significantly reduced the service to both Dunboyne and maynooth. How is that an improvement?
    You must not have much experience of other parts of the city - there are few with a worse service and none along a rail or Luas line with a worse public transport service.

    Can you point out one or two improvements rather than promises that have been implemented in the past couple of years?

    The one massive improvement which is currently underway is the Luas connection. Another in recent years is the addition of the Docklands line.

    All areas along the Maynooth line are serviced by various bus routes.

    For anyone starting work at 8/9/10 in the morning there is more than enough services, yes you might not have a seat but where will you get one anywhere in the world at rush hour.

    In the evening there is also plenty of services from the city centre.

    There is a lot more areas in the capital that would benefit from a rail link/improved public transport than the Maynooth line


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    #48
    AGC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭AGC


    AlanG wrote: »
    Before the DART ran frequent services many stations on those lines had very little demand. It is very well recognised that providing frequent service on public transport creates demand. It is only when people can go to the station knowing the wait will be max 20 or 25 mins that you actually providing a service that will be embraced. It worked on the DART line and would work on our line. When a service is frequent it becomes second nature - hence the recent increases in DART frequencies even at off peak times.

    Not at 12.30 in the afternoon. Any form of transport reduces during off peak hours, trains, planes and automobiles.


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    #49
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    AGC wrote: »
    Between 12.07 and 12.47 on a Thursday afternoon do you really think there is demand for trains? Or economically sensible?

    There would be a lot more demand for Dart, centrally located stations where people could be hopping around the city centre for meetings. A lot more business done between Clontarf Road and Lansdowne road than Maynooth - Drumcondra

    You're contradicting your own point which was...

    "areas along the Maynooth line are some of the best served by public transport in the capital"
    AGC wrote: »
    Not at 12.30 in the afternoon. Any form of transport reduces during off peak hours, trains, planes and automobiles.

    Irrelevant. The comparison was the same time period.


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    #50
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Comparing a long established high frequency service, with one that isn't. Is a bit of a flawed comparison. Also comparing disparate locations. But this line passes through D.15 which is a massive area which has massive traffic problems, and has traffic coming from Lucan and wider Meath area passing through it, most of which going to city centre.

    Its not that the population isn't there. Its that train & bus service isn't attractive for a lot of them. So many choose to drive 40~60 mins into town, rather than get a 16~35min train. The car traffic is certainly there, peak AND off peak.


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    #51
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭AlanG


    AGC wrote: »
    Not at 12.30 in the afternoon. Any form of transport reduces during off peak hours, trains, planes and automobiles.

    Are you just trolling - harmonstown for example has 4 darts to town an hour at that time. It's not a particularly busy station. Coolmine has one train an hour. It perfectly illustrates my point that the maynooth line is being left behind.


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    #52
    AGC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭AGC


    AlanG wrote: »
    Are you just trolling - harmonstown for example has 4 darts to town an hour at that time. It's not a particularly busy station. Coolmine has one train an hour. It perfectly illustrates my point that the maynooth line is being left behind.

    But when the demand is not there what is the point??? You say a more frequent service will create demand, at certain times during the day it will not.

    I will use Dublin 15 as an example because it is what I am most familiar with, a reduced bus service at off peak times running quite a low capacity. Additional trains would be similar

    Are you just looking for more trains because other areas have them???


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    #53
    AGC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭AGC


    beauf wrote: »
    Its not that the population isn't there. Its that train & bus service isn't attractive for a lot of them. So many choose to drive 40~60 mins into town, rather than get a 16~35min train. The car traffic is certainly there, peak AND off peak.

    It would be great to have a train every 10 minutes all day but that will not reduce the traffic. People choose to drive and are happy sitting in traffic.


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    #54
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2014/09/a-universal-lesson-in-breaking-the-habit-of-car-commuting/380764/


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    #55
    AGC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭AGC


    beauf wrote: »
    http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2014/09/a-universal-lesson-in-breaking-the-habit-of-car-commuting/380764/

    So it took a company to re-locate and pay for the train for their employees to improve figures?!! How many companies would be willing to do that? I would like to see how many went back to driving when they stopped getting the free pass.

    I can't see how it has any relation to the Maynooth line, which people use. Yes more frequent trains would be great, more capacity would be great but the investment would be better spent on rail lines to part of the city which have none. Then you might see traffic reduce.


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    #56
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You're missing the point. People won't move unless encouraged. It can be the carrot or the stick. In Dublin the plan will be the stick, they intend making it more difficult for cars. The trains in D.15 haven't really been improved for decades.

    Arguing people won't use a service, that doesn't exist yet, is a flawed argument. its like people saying Dublin Bikes wouldn't work before they were rolled out.


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    #57
    Keyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Keyzer


    L1011 wrote: »
    Yes, and on two of the Docklands trains each way a day also.

    I get docklands everyday from Clonsilla and most of the time I get a seat. And its never packed.

    8:02 from Clonsilla to Connolly is a sardine fest.


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    #58
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Keyzer wrote: »
    I get docklands everyday from Clonsilla and most of the time I get a seat. And its never packed. 8:02 from Clonsilla to Connolly is a sardine fest.

    In other words by the 2nd stop the docklands train can be standing room only. From Coolmine the docklands is usually standing room only, at peak. But much less crammed than the Connolly train is. Standing though isn't a big deal as its 15 mins vs 30 mins into city centre. Its getting busier though.


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    #59
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Keyzer wrote: »
    I get docklands everyday from Clonsilla and most of the time I get a seat. And its never packed.

    8:02 from Clonsilla to Connolly is a sardine fest.

    You're clearly not on the same trains as me.

    If they're four car, they're uncomfortable by Coolmine. If they're 3 car, its crush capacity in the vestibules and people standing down the aisles.


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    #60
    ongarboy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ongarboy


    L1011 wrote: »
    You're clearly not on the same trains as me.

    If they're four car, they're uncomfortable by Coolmine. If they're 3 car, its crush capacity in the vestibules and people standing down the aisles.

    One fault with the trains is that many of them are intercity style trains which are not suitable for standing passengers and the aisles do not have appropriate holding grips/rails for commuters forced to stand there. They should all be replaced with proper commuter trains.

    PS - I've noticed the 5:55pm from Docklands as gotten so much busier now - I never get a seat anymore (not sure if it's due to less carriages - some services only have 3 carriages).


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    #61
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Still compared to the Connolly train its great.


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