Maynooth train line ignored - what are our ministers doing.

AlanG

With two ministers in the area it is amazing that the electrification of the line to Balbriggan seems to be getting prioritized over improvements to the Maynooth service. Dublin 15 trains are packed for far longer periods than Norther commuter line trains - you cannot get a seat on our line from 4:30pm on wards most days but the Malahide line is rarely full and they have a far more frequent service.
In addition far more northern commuter trains go from the south side so don't involve a change at Connolly for most users.
It now looks like the shelving of Dart underground will mean the Maynooth line will stay as an under served afterthought for many years to come.
The upcoming election is our chance to get this issue raised. having lived along both lines it is amazing how IR keep prioritising the northern route above the western lines. They have not even completed the signalling changes to allow more frequency through Tara Street which was supposed to allow more maynooth trains into Pearse.

I urge anyone who sees a politician over the upcoming months to raise the issue. A frequent rail service into the heart of the city would greatly improve life in D15, ease traffic and increase accessibility to work and college for thousands.

ongarboy

AlanG wrote: »

you cannot get a seat on our line from 4:30pm on wards most days but the Malahide line is rarely full and they have a far more frequent service.

In fairness, guaranteed seating is not the norm for rush hour commuter services in any city across the world. Tube, Paris Metro, New York subway, BART etc. I agree there's a problem if commuters are unable to even stand comfortably (eg packed like sardines) but is there really that sort of crush problem anymore? I know it was when I used to travel on the old Maynooth line but the introduction of the Docklands service should have taken out a lot of the Clonsilla to Docklands volumes.

DvB

IMo the simplest solution to part address capacity issues at peak times is to simply increase the number of carriages on the trains. For example the 7.31 from Clonsilla to Connolly has 4 carriages as are others at peak times in the afternoon & morning, increase these to 8 and its a help.

L1011

ongarboy wrote: »

but is there really that sort of crush problem anymore?

Yes, and on two of the Docklands trains each way a day also.

riffmongous

I remember a few years ago a carriage was so full a woman fell out of the door and between the train and the tracks, I hope things have improved a bit

Larbre34

My views on the decision are on the other thread but im surprised Paschal took that decision seeing his patch straddles the same line.

I suspect Leo wouldnt have binned the electrification if at all possible.

Larbre34

Larbre34 wrote: »

My views on the decision are on the other thread but im surprised Paschal took that decision seeing his patch straddles the same line.

I suspect Leo wouldnt have binned the electrification if at all possible.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. He's on the record of asking whether Ireland really needs rail at all. I always had a suspicion that Fine Gael were anti-rail.

Zaph

I heard Paschal Donohue on the radio this evening and he said he'd be making more transport announcements next week, so it's possible the Maynooth line will get a mention then.

AlanG

ongarboy wrote: »

In fairness, guaranteed seating is not the norm for rush hour commuter services in any city across the world. Tube, Paris Metro, New York subway, BART etc. I agree there's a problem if commuters are unable to even stand comfortably (eg packed like sardines) but is there really that sort of crush problem anymore? I know it was when I used to travel on the old Maynooth line but the introduction of the Docklands service should have taken out a lot of the Clonsilla to Docklands volumes.

My point is that if you look at other trains departing Tara st for instance between 4:30 and 5 there is loads of free seats - both on the dart and on the Balbriggan trains. Yet they made a big deal a few months ago about increasing the frequency of the dart service and now they are making a big deal about electrifying the line to Balbriggan. The Maynooth line has been lined up for electrification for years - if nothing happens while we have two ministers in D15 it will never happen.
We clearly have a need for a more frequent service but nothing is being done to provide it. The docklands train, while welcome is no substitute for a system going into the city center and linking up with the DART.

AlanG

Larbre34 wrote: »

My views on the decision are on the other thread but im surprised Paschal took that decision seeing his patch straddles the same line.

He has plenty to talk about with the LUAS extension going to his front door and the likely Airport link taking a detour via his home patch also.

Larbre34

AlanG wrote: »

He has plenty to talk about with the LUAS extension going to his front door and the likely Airport link taking a detour via his home patch also.

Indeed.

Murt10

I don't see the electrification of the Maynooth line as a really big deal. It currently takes about 20 mins to get into Town. How much time do you want to save?

Also, huge swathes of Dublin 15 including the Centre, are nowhere near the train line. Doesn't matter a damn to them if the line is electrified, they are not going to benefit from it.

I still think that they will announce an extension of the Luas from Cabra to Blanch.

For good measure, given that they have to go to the Country for election within the next 6 months, I also think that they are going to announce an additional bank holiday for Easter 2016. That will put the voters in a good mood (well me anyway). Looks like some other politicians have the same idea and are trying to hijack the idea by calling for a new bank holiday as a way of thanking the people for the way we voted in support of the LGBT community.

AlanG

Murt10 wrote: »

I don't see the electrification of the Maynooth line as a really big deal. It currently takes about 20 mins to get into Town. How much time do you want to save?

Also, huge swathes of Dublin 15 including the Centre, are nowhere near the train line. Doesn't matter a damn to them if the line is electrified, they are not going to benefit from it.

With the new station going in at royal canal park, the faster acceleration of DARTS will make a difference to times, Also, as DARTs are cheaper to run they generally get a better service that Diesels.

Regarding the obvious fact that not everyone lives beside the train line it is also a fact that many people would benefit considerably from the reduced traffic associated with increased rail usage in the area.

Gaspode

There doesn't seem to be any point in increasing rail services of any kind (in this area) until the issue of level crossings is sorted. No amount of extra trains or train lines will reduce traffic if cars are constantly held up at crossings.

murphaph

Dart Underground is being cancelled right now. Stop squabbling between Maynooth and Balbriggan. Without DU everything else is a sticking plaster. Educate yourselves about DU if you haven't already and stop the fighting over the cruimbs from the rural politicians' tables.

Gaspode

Are you addressing the politicians there murphaph or the posters on this forum?

daymobrew

Gaspode wrote: »

There doesn't seem to be any point in increasing rail services of any kind (in this area) until the issue of level crossings is sorted. No amount of extra trains or train lines will reduce traffic if cars are constantly held up at crossings.

By "sorted" do you mean "removed"?

And why not increase the rail services? They would likely attract more passengers, which is a good thing.

beauf

ongarboy wrote: »

In fairness, guaranteed seating is not the norm for rush hour commuter services in any city across the world. Tube, Paris Metro, New York subway, BART etc. I agree there's a problem if commuters are unable to even stand comfortably (eg packed like sardines) but is there really that sort of crush problem anymore? I know it was when I used to travel on the old Maynooth line but the introduction of the Docklands service should have taken out a lot of the Clonsilla to Docklands volumes.

I would say yes at peak its like sardines, uncomfortably so. The Dockland train also has a lot standing at peak. Peak though is quite narrow period. If people could stagger their hours the trains a lot more manageable. Personally I avoid the trains at peak. Most people don't have the option.

Its been this way for decades on the Maynooth line.

thomasj

We need to start pushing Burton and varadkar on this. This is getting redicilous.

Pat Dunne

Have a read of the following http://www.joanburton.ie/new-capital-planwill-build-recovery-with-e27-billion-investment/

thomasj

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Have a read of the following http://www.joanburton.ie/new-capital-planwill-build-recovery-with-e27-billion-investment/

Have a read of this
http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2015/minister-donohoe-confirms-%E2%82%AC10bn-investment-our-transport-future

Larbre34

No point electrifying the Maynooth line without the underground interconnector from Connolly. All you will get is electric trains delayed by a lack of capacity in Connolly rather than diesel ones. Im not even kidding, DART will not increase capacity from Dublin 15 into Connolly, it physically cannot.

thomasj

Larbre34 wrote: »

No point electrifying the Maynooth line without the underground interconnector from Connolly. All you will get is electric trains delayed by a lack of capacity in Connolly rather than diesel ones. Im not even kidding, DART will not increase capacity from Dublin 15 into Connolly, it physically cannot.

Why not?

Sure its going to be the same route when the IC happens so you may as well.

The service and capacity is rediclious at the moment. Capacity in the peak hours are bursting at the seems.

AlanG

Larbre34 wrote: »

No point electrifying the Maynooth line without the underground interconnector from Connolly. All you will get is electric trains delayed by a lack of capacity in Connolly rather than diesel ones. Im not even kidding, DART will not increase capacity from Dublin 15 into Connolly, it physically cannot.

Have to disagree - when the central signalling upgrade is finally completed the capacity through Connolly will be increased by about 40% as trains will be able to transit the station at a much quicker rate. Unfortunately it looks like all this capacity will go to the Northern line and the phoenix park tunnel. It would be great if Dart Underground happened but it clearly is not and now Dublin 15 is being left out of the scant pickings that are being offered in its place. The announcements today have nothing for transport in Dublin 15.

Larbre34

thomasj wrote: »

Why not?

Sure its going to be the same route when the IC happens so you may as well.

The service and capacity is rediclious at the moment. Capacity in the peak hours are bursting at the seems.

Because the underground interconnector would grade separate the new Maynooth - Greystones and Malahide-Kildare routes. The existing Connolly station physically cannot put through any more trains than it already does in the peak hours - especially as they obviously mean to increase capacity to Balbriggan on the existing DART. Electrifying the Maynooth line alone will do nothing to improve the numbers carried

AlanG

Larbre34 wrote: »

The existing Connolly station physically cannot put through any more trains than it already does in the peak hours

The completion of the City Centre Resignalling programme for the rail network has been given funding and this will greatly increase capacity at Connolly as a much shorter space will have to be left between trains. The increase is from 12 trains per hour each way to 20, so actually a major increase without DART underground. Dublin 15 will not be in a position to benefit from it with the way our politicians seem to be acting.
http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/city-centre-resignalling

thomasj

Larbre34 wrote: »

Because the underground interconnector would grade separate the new Maynooth - Greystones and Malahide-Kildare routes. The existing Connolly station physically cannot put through any more trains than it already does in the peak hours - especially as they obviously mean to increase capacity to Balbriggan on the existing DART. Electrifying the Maynooth line alone will do nothing to improve the numbers carried

Dart trains have a greater capacity than the trains currently being used and take less time to depart from stations. Just because we don't have the IC tunnel doesn't mean we can't get dart trains sooner.

Carawaystick

thomasj wrote: »

Dart trains have a greater capacity than the trains currently being used and take less time to depart from stations. Just because we don't have the IC tunnel doesn't mean we can't get dart trains sooner.

Except with the darts auto braking system programmed for a loco hauling train stopping rate, they are as slow arriving into stations, or slower than dmu trains.

Larbre34

^ Yep.

The increase of DART stock over 29000 class, without the underground and considering the time, disruption and cost to electrify, is just not worth it....

AlanG

Larbre34 wrote: »

^ Yep.

The increase of DART stock over 29000 class, without the underground and considering the time, disruption and cost to electrify, is just not worth it....

It sounds like you think the DART is a waste of time altogether. If that is your belief that's fine but if the DART is beneficial for Malahide and Bray it will be beneficial for Blanchardstown. You seem to be basing your argument on the mistaken idea that capacity at Connolly will not increase when in fact it will be increased from 12 to 20 trains per hour without Dart underground.

beauf

The intercity style trains are used almost all the time now. Same on Docklands. They seem a lot less suitable than the arrow trains in terms of capacity at peak.

Larbre34

AlanG wrote: »

You seem to be basing your argument on the mistaken idea that capacity at Connolly will not increase when in fact it will be increased from 12 to 20 trains per hour without Dart underground.

Due to what?

Even if you improve signalling there is a limit, and an incoming Maynooth line will be competing with added services on the northern line due to the Balbriggan extension.

rubberdiddies

I'm not convinced that the Dart to Balbriggan is going to bring any sort of improvement to commuters there.

In my opinion it will just increase journey times to stations beyond malahide because the Dart will stop at every station whereas the commuter trains currently don't. And no doubt once the Dart to Balbriggan is in place, the number of commuter trains will be significantly reduced. So unless I'm completely wrong I see this as longer journey times for commuters.

AlanG

Larbre34 wrote: »

Due to what?

Even if you improve signalling there is a limit, and an incoming Maynooth line will be competing with added services on the northern line due to the Balbriggan extension.

Due to the signalling upgrade project I mentioned twice earlier in this thread, There is a link to it above. At least if we had DART we would be in a position to compete for the increased capacity.Also DARTs are cheaper to run so you have a better chance of getting more frequent off peak services.

murphaph

The standing during peak is not fixable. I stand every day here in Berlin and the trains run every 3 minutes! It's peak time.

beauf

murphaph wrote: »

The standing during peak is not fixable. I stand every day here in Berlin and the trains run every 3 minutes! It's peak time.

Standing is ok. Being like sardines less so.

murphaph

Obviously I believe that public transport as currently provided in Dublin is a shambles and could and should be significantly improved with new underground rail lines and DART expansion, metro etc. but these things (in the unlikely event they get built) will be popular and their popularity will lead to them being heavily subscribed. We are often sardines too here in Berlin. Tokyo is even quite famous for it, and both cities have far superior public transport to Dublin. I imagine a vastly improved system in Dublin would be just as packed at peak time as it is now, that's all I'm saying.

TheMightyI

Modifying the train carriages on the Maynooth line would help. Too much room taken up by seats. Do people really need to sit for a <30 min journey? Cut the number of seats by half and free up more standing room would be my suggestion.

TheMightyI

Also, any update on the Royal Canal/Pelletstown station that was proposed last year?

beauf

TheMightyI wrote: »

Modifying the train carriages on the Maynooth line would help. Too much room taken up by seats. Do people really need to sit for a <30 min journey? Cut the number of seats by half and free up more standing room would be my suggestion.

There much more room on the non-intercity trains for standing. Even have folding seats. Yet the intercity are much more common. IMO.

Incidentally the journey time (Maynooth to Connolly) is 30~47 mins.

ongarboy

TheMightyI wrote: »

Also, any update on the Royal Canal/Pelletstown station that was proposed last year?

Not sure but after years of inactivity, work has started on new homes in the area around the proposed train station location and according to the link below, a lot of new planning applications have been submitted for the completion of the developments around Rathborne/Pelletstown so the residential populations will be present in the near future to justify demand for the new station.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1842436

AGC

The areas along the Maynooth line are some of the best served by public transport in the capital. And it is improving.

It is far from a priority. They would be investing money in something where it is needed elsewhere.

beauf

AGC wrote: »

The areas along the Maynooth line are some of the best served by public transport in the capital. And it is improving.

It is far from a priority. They would be investing money in something where it is needed elsewhere.

It certain better than a lot of areas. But among the best? What does that mean?

For example. If you were to go for the train now at 12.07 the next train into city centre is in 40 mins. In comparison theres approx 3 darts in that time from Blackrock to the city centre.

AGC

beauf wrote: »

It certain better than a lot of areas. But among the best? What does that mean?

For example. If you were to go for the train now at 12.07 the next train into city centre is in 40 mins. In comparison theres approx 3 darts in that time from Blackrock to the city centre.

Between 12.07 and 12.47 on a Thursday afternoon do you really think there is demand for trains? Or economically sensible?

There would be a lot more demand for Dart, centrally located stations where people could be hopping around the city centre for meetings. A lot more business done between Clontarf Road and Lansdowne road than Maynooth - Drumcondra

AlanG

AGC wrote: »

The areas along the Maynooth line are some of the best served by public transport in the capital. And it is improving.

In what way is it improving? Off peak there is usually an hour between trains and the last change to the timetable significantly reduced the service to both Dunboyne and maynooth. How is that an improvement?
You must not have much experience of other parts of the city - there are few with a worse service and none along a rail or Luas line with a worse public transport service.

Can you point out one or two improvements rather than promises that have been implemented in the past couple of years?

AlanG

AGC wrote: »

Between 12.07 and 12.47 on a Thursday afternoon do you really think there is demand for trains? Or economically sensible?

There would be a lot more demand for Dart, ...

Before the DART ran frequent services many stations on those lines had very little demand. It is very well recognised that providing frequent service on public transport creates demand. It is only when people can go to the station knowing the wait will be max 20 or 25 mins that you actually providing a service that will be embraced. It worked on the DART line and would work on our line. When a service is frequent it becomes second nature - hence the recent increases in DART frequencies even at off peak times.

AGC

AlanG wrote: »

In what way is it improving? Off peak there is usually an hour between trains and the last change to the timetable significantly reduced the service to both Dunboyne and maynooth. How is that an improvement?
You must not have much experience of other parts of the city - there are few with a worse service and none along a rail or Luas line with a worse public transport service.

Can you point out one or two improvements rather than promises that have been implemented in the past couple of years?

The one massive improvement which is currently underway is the Luas connection. Another in recent years is the addition of the Docklands line.

All areas along the Maynooth line are serviced by various bus routes.

For anyone starting work at 8/9/10 in the morning there is more than enough services, yes you might not have a seat but where will you get one anywhere in the world at rush hour.

In the evening there is also plenty of services from the city centre.

There is a lot more areas in the capital that would benefit from a rail link/improved public transport than the Maynooth line

AGC

AlanG wrote: »

Before the DART ran frequent services many stations on those lines had very little demand. It is very well recognised that providing frequent service on public transport creates demand. It is only when people can go to the station knowing the wait will be max 20 or 25 mins that you actually providing a service that will be embraced. It worked on the DART line and would work on our line. When a service is frequent it becomes second nature - hence the recent increases in DART frequencies even at off peak times.

Not at 12.30 in the afternoon. Any form of transport reduces during off peak hours, trains, planes and automobiles.

beauf

AGC wrote: »

Between 12.07 and 12.47 on a Thursday afternoon do you really think there is demand for trains? Or economically sensible?

There would be a lot more demand for Dart, centrally located stations where people could be hopping around the city centre for meetings. A lot more business done between Clontarf Road and Lansdowne road than Maynooth - Drumcondra

You're contradicting your own point which was...

"areas along the Maynooth line are some of the best served by public transport in the capital"

AGC wrote: »

Not at 12.30 in the afternoon. Any form of transport reduces during off peak hours, trains, planes and automobiles.

Irrelevant. The comparison was the same time period.

beauf

Comparing a long established high frequency service, with one that isn't. Is a bit of a flawed comparison. Also comparing disparate locations. But this line passes through D.15 which is a massive area which has massive traffic problems, and has traffic coming from Lucan and wider Meath area passing through it, most of which going to city centre.

Its not that the population isn't there. Its that train & bus service isn't attractive for a lot of them. So many choose to drive 40~60 mins into town, rather than get a 16~35min train. The car traffic is certainly there, peak AND off peak.

AlanG

AGC wrote: »

Not at 12.30 in the afternoon. Any form of transport reduces during off peak hours, trains, planes and automobiles.

Are you just trolling - harmonstown for example has 4 darts to town an hour at that time. It's not a particularly busy station. Coolmine has one train an hour. It perfectly illustrates my point that the maynooth line is being left behind.