We must rid ourselves of our ludicrous language laws

Cosmo K

Why couldn't they simply translate the printout for him?

FishOnABike

Cosmo K wrote: »

Why couldn't they simply translate the printout for him?

It had been submitted as evidence but was found (by the court) to not comply with the format required by law. It can't be changed after the fact.

PopePalpatine

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Conradh na Gaelige stands up for the Irish language rights of drunks;



Conradh's obsession with imposing Irish on the population knows no bounds.

Is it wrong that I'm wondering that CnaG's members are the sort of ignoramuses that still think Danny Healy-Rae had a p(o)int with his drink-driving permits? :P

This problem is because you have Courts of Law, not Courts of Justice

FishOnABike

Originally Posted by FishOnABike
The gardaí who intercepted these drivers did their job perfectly but have been let down by those further up the chain - our legislature, those who specified and accepted the equipment which did not comply with the legislation and those who ignored the warnings of this potential issue months ago.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not what you said here.

Originally Posted by FishOnABike
Maybe it would help if those with the responsibility for overseeing the law (both those enacting and those enforcing it) could just write and read properly rather than trying to spuriously deflect the blame for their failures in stating and following the law, especially if as pointed out by the poster above, this problem was pointed out to them some time ago.

There's no contradiction between the two posts. In the context "those enforcing it" doesn't necessarily include the arresting gardaí, and nowhere did I say it did.

I deliberately used a non prescriptive inclusive term which may include (or not) anyone involved in the decision making processes relating to the implementation and operation of the legislation. This could possibly include (or not) more senior levels within An Garda Siochana, Dept. of Justice, Minister for Justice, Office of the DPP, Attorney General, Office of Government Procurement and/or others.

However this whole legal argument is in itself a side issue possibly more suited to the legal discussion forum. The topic here is whether "We must rid ourselves of our ludicrous language laws". I would say not.

The legislative requirements were available in the relevant SI in English, incorrectly implemented and warnings to this effect ignored. The Irish language requirement is not the problem.

Permabear

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Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Permabear wrote: »

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That's not just politicians. Say it to a lobbyist as an ordinary citrizen and you're immediately a self-hating Anglophile trying to condemn someone else's rights and stmap out all traces of the language.

FishOnABike

Permabear wrote: »

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From the linked article it appears the unsold Irish copies "were all at the bottom of a filing cabinet gathering dust in the planning department".

How much of the €10,000 each is attributable to translation and how much to printing?

For accessibility government publications should be downloadable for free and anybody wanting a hardcopy could order it from a self publishing facility like lulu to print on demand. This could be more cost effective overall.

ancapailldorcha

FishOnABike wrote: »

From the linked article it appears the unsold Irish copies "were all at the bottom of a filing cabinet gathering dust in the planning department".

How much of the €10,000 each is attributable to translation and how much to printing?

For accessibility government publications should be downloadable for free and anybody wanting a hardcopy could order it from a self publishing facility like lulu to print on demand. This could be more cost effective overall.

Documents are not that expensive to print. Well below the €1,000 mark anyway. Translating these things into Irish is something that only a small few of the population will be able to do ironically so the cost will be sky high. The government aren't exactly restrained when it comes to frittering cash away on it after all.

Permabear

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ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

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Pretty much. I mentioned this to some friends who looked at me as if I'd just set a tricolour alight. The irony is that it's been the near century of various Irish governments who have done more to kill it than the British ever did. I even read once that Queen Elizabeth I even spoke a few words of it back in the day.

Regarding foreign language skills, a lot of companies have located their customer service centres in Brighton where I live which has become something of a beacon for continental Europeans who are naturally multilingual and want to be able to go home conveniently. American Express even have their European headquarters here. Anyone fluent in English and another European language can usually land a decent job providing customer service here (1).

FishOnABike

Permabear wrote: »

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My impression was this was the inclusive cost of providing the translated documents.

Permabear

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The Black Oil

Permabear wrote: »

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But for the Gaeilge, I'd have figured the imagery was about heart disease, or something. As you say, the lobby shapes the debate on this issue. Even the 'slippery slope' argument Shep_Dog linked to, they went there, that phrase...deary me. This is the problem with certain native speakers - they cannot see any balance between what's a right and what is practical and reasonable. I don't hate the language, but the discourse that surrounds it is ridiculous. If the language is to grow let it do so organically (or strip down the curriculum), and let's not have endless state-backed attempts to prop it up.

Boulevardier

I wonder if it is time to revive the Language Freedom Movement that existed in the 1960s.

This is what happened last time out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Freedom_Movement

However, I think there would be a more receptive climate today to a pressure group opposed to Gaelofascism.

The Black Oil

I don't support terms such as Gaeilgoir facists or Taliban. That's on the same spectrum of intolerance as when native tongued folk tell you to move to the UK.

Boulevardier

OK, forget the fascist bit.

Should the LFM be re-started?

FishOnABike

The Black Oil wrote: »

But for the Gaeilge, I'd have figured the imagery was about heart disease, or something.

To be honest, I couldn't quite figure out if they were heartbroken about the state of the language or considered it a heartbreak.

Hotblack Desiato

Boulevardier wrote: »

I wonder if it is time to revive the Language Freedom Movement that existed in the 1960s.

This is what happened last time out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_Freedom_Movement

However, I think there would be a more receptive climate today to a pressure group opposed to Gaelofascism.

Entirely unsurprising that it was suppressed by brainless thugs.
I wouldn't be entirely confident that that couldn't happen today, either.

Shep_Dog

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Entirely unsurprising that it was suppressed by brainless thugs.
I wouldn't be entirely confident that that couldn't happen today, either.

The Irish lobby is far more sophisticated these days. Having now asserted the Irish language rights of non-Irish-speaking drunks, it's only a matter of time that they'll call in the HSE on parents who don't speak Irish to their kids.

Nichard Dixon

Following endless debate as to how all laws should be changed to accommodate the 2% of people who were homosexual, and how making that change was a good thing, we now have some of the same people trying to exterminate Irish speakers because they don't form a big enough part of the population. That's logical.

Shep_Dog

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

Following endless debate as to how all laws should be changed to accommodate the 2% of people who were homosexual, and how making that change was a good thing, we now have some of the same people trying to exterminate Irish speakers because they don't form a big enough part of the population. That's logical.

Nobody is looking for the extermination of Irish speakers. You have it the wrong way around. The situation is that Irish speakers want to replace English with Irish as our common language.

Unlike homosexuality, which is a consensual matter for individuals, usually adults, Irish speakers are insisting that defenseless, vulnerable children be forced to speak Irish at schools.

Nichard Dixon

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Nobody is looking for the extermination of Irish speakers. You have it the wrong way around. The situation is that Irish speakers want to replace English with Irish as our common language.

A notable thing about this debate is that the minority people wish to exterminate are characterised as somehow being a threat to the majority.

Unlike homosexuality, which is a consensual matter for individuals, usually adults, Irish speakers are insisting that defenseless, vulnerable children be forced to speak Irish at schools.

When I was at school I was also forced to do sums, speling and a variety of other things. Schools exist to educate, and it is sad that some people resist education in order to progress their own colonial anti Irish political objectives.

markpb

Nichard Dixon wrote:

Following endless debate as to how all laws should be changed to accommodate the 2% of people who were homosexual, and how making that change was a good thing, we now have some of the same people trying to exterminate Irish speakers because they don't form a big enough part of the population. That's logical.

The law was charged to allow gay people to get married. This costs the state nothing.

The OLA requires the state to spend tens of millions of euros each year translating everything into Irish even though only a tiny minority will ever use it. We even have an entire state agency dedicated to policing other state agencies to make sure they're wasting money in line with official language regulations. All this for a tiny percentage of the population.

Shep_Dog

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

A notable thing about this debate is that the minority people wish to exterminate are characterised as somehow being a threat to the majority.

Nobody wants to exterminate Irish speakers. A notable thing about repressive regimes is that they conjure up imaginary threats (usually from outsiders) to introduce oppressive measures.

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

When I was at school I was also forced to do sums, speling and a variety of other things. Schools exist to educate, and it is sad that some people resist education in order to progress their own colonial anti Irish political objectives.

Numeracy and literacy in our common tongue are fundamental needs. Learning Irish (or indeed any other language) should be be a matter of choice.

The policy of compulsion is supported by certain traditionalist and political organisations in order to progress xenophobic and isolationist objectives. Accusations of being 'colonial' and 'anti-Irish' are their stock in trade.

FishOnABike

markpb wrote: »

We even have an entire state agency dedicated to policing other state agencies

For a moment there I thought you might be talking about the Equality Tribunal, Data Protection Commissioner, Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, Financial Regulator or one of the other multitude of state or quasi-state agencies set up to police other state agencies (and non state agencies).

The Black Oil

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

A notable thing about this debate is that the minority people wish to exterminate are characterised as somehow being a threat to the majority.

I was waiting for the hyperbole. If any minister talked about dialling back Irish as compulsory Leaving Cert subject he/she would be greeted with a CnaG press release about this being "an all out assault on our language". Remind me, who sets the terms of the debate? And why the persecution complex?

Shep_Dog

The Black Oil wrote: »

I was waiting for the hyperbole. If any minister talked about dialling back Irish as compulsory Leaving Cert subject he/she would be greeted with a CnaG press release about this being "an all out assault on our language". Remind me, who sets the terms of the debate? And why the persecution complex?

It would be interesting to know if public servants are permitted to be members of Conradh na Gaeilge, given the general prohibition on conflicts of interest and political activity for such people.

nice_guy80

How is Welsh coming along?

I definitely think a lot of government organisations damage the language more than they are meant to promote it

There are more Irish speakers in Belfast than any Gaeltacht area.

ancapailldorcha

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

Following endless debate as to how all laws should be changed to accommodate the 2% of people who were homosexual, and how making that change was a good thing, we now have some of the same people trying to exterminate Irish speakers because they don't form a big enough part of the population. That's logical.

Nobody's mentioned extermination. I don't see why you need to use language like that. Also, who wants to change "all laws" to accommodate homosexuals? The fact that the pro-compulsory language lobby need to resort to such extreme language signifies that they can't formulate a single cogent argument for keeping the current system beyond "it's our culture". Cultures evolve and lose dead wood in the process. The current system serves only to fund a small group of Irish elites like Éamon Ó Cuív who are otherwise unemployable. Instead of pragmatism, however we get the usual "ah sure we're turning a corner" or "the future's looking bright" nonsense while the language takes another step closer to death.