We must rid ourselves of our ludicrous language laws

josephryan1989

A Garda stopped a man in Swords for speeding and then suspected him of drink driving after he noticed a strong smell of alcohol and performed a roadside breathalyser test which showed the man was well over the limit. The man appears to have a non-Irish name and therefore is not likely to be a speaker of the Irish language. However because of our ludicrous language laws the case was thrown out when it went to court because after the specimen was taken, the driver was not supplied with identical statements in Irish and English.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/high-court-ruling-puts-hundreds-of-drinkdriving-cases-under-threat-31547441.html

Have you every heard of such BS in all your life?

Potentially this could lead to many more convictions being thrown out.

How many people in Swords, Co. Dublin can speak Irish or use Irish on a daily basis? So why in the flying feck should it make a difference if the statement wasn't in Irish?

Potentially a drink driver caught red handed in the same circumstances can walk out of the court without punishment and then potentially get blind drunk once again and crash his car and kill innocent people. If he survives the crash and is tested and again his statement is not printed in Irish and English he can avoid a more serious conviction for driving drunk and causing the deaths.

All because this state must keep up the surreal fantasy that Irish is the first language of this country when everyone knows that nobody speaks it in daily life apart from Gaeltacht areas where it is dying out.

Lives could potentially be lost because of this absurdity.

golfball37

Maybe the authorities should use some joined up thinking and apply the law the way its meant to be done. The Irish language or a foreign driver isn't the issue here. A lady representing victims of drink driving brought this to minister last January as a possible loophole and she wasn't listened to.

Stheno

Legislation to prevent this was passed this morning.

Gatling

It's reduculous that a non national gets caught speeding and drink driving and now gets a get out of jail card based off no irish print was used .
several hundred others including a senator are waiting to have there get out of jail card issued for motoring offences

johnnyskeleton

Gatling wrote: »

It's reduculous that a non national gets caught speeding and drink driving and now gets a get out of jail card based off no irish print was used .
several hundred others including a senator are waiting to have there get out of jail card issued for motoring offences

The offence was created by statute. The statute was not complied with. Therefore the prosecution fails. Sounds like justice to me. It only applies to the drink driving offence.

Put another way, if the statute wasnt there, there would be nothing legally wrong with drink driving, no blood alcohol limits etc. So if it was badly drafted, the government at the time should take responsibility. In this particular case, FF and the Greens decided to redraft the legislation and include a dual language printout without, it would seem, checking to see if the Intoxiliser machines could do it or without actually implementing it.

In these situations governments like blaming the courts and others, but really it is up to them to make sure that such an important thing as the law is drafted correctly

Boulevardier

Mooney's judgement was a piece of utter legal idiocy.

It is time to start a campaign for the repeal of the ludicrous Official Languages Act 2003, which seems to underlie a lot of this kind of crap.

delahuntv

Imagine how pissed off all those who went for the blood or urine sample to try and delay the results and hopefully a reading below the limit. (now called doing a Daly)

No changes to their cases.

BaronVon

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

.....In this particular case, FF and the Greens decided to redraft the legislation and include a dual language printout without, it would seem, checking to see if the Intoxiliser machines could do it or without actually implementing it.

It appears it was actually Leo that signed in the relevant Statutory Instrument

johnnyskeleton

infacteh wrote: »

It appears it was actually Leo that signed in the relevant Statutory Instrument

I thought it was this one:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/si/433/made/en/print

Its a pity that it takes a few days for Judgments and new legislation to be published or that the media would give specific information on the laws that are in question so that we would be able to follow it properly.

BaronVon

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I thought it was this one:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/si/433/made/en/print

Its a pity that it takes a few days for Judgments and new legislation to be published or that the media would give specific information on the laws that are in question so that we would be able to follow it properly.

That seems more likely. The Irish Times stated it was signed into law by Leo in October 2011. The one you mentioned is part of the RTA 1994, the whole drink driving legislation was overhaule with the RTA 2010, which wasn't enacted until 2011.

Either way, I see no mention in either SI about a requirement to have the Section 13 statement in both languages!

johnnyskeleton

infacteh wrote: »

That seems more likely. The Irish Times stated it was signed into law by Leo in October 2011. The one you mentioned is part of the RTA 1994, the whole drink driving legislation was overhaule with the RTA 2010, which wasn't enacted until 2011.

Either way, I see no mention in either SI about a requirement to have the Section 13 statement in both languages!

The Act says a certificate in the prescribed form and an SI like that would seem to make sense. Youre right that its for the 1994 Act. I cant seem to find one for the 2010 Act.

Shep_Dog

josephryan1989 wrote: »

How many people in Swords, Co. Dublin can speak Irish or use Irish on a daily basis? So why in the flying feck should it make a difference if the statement wasn't in Irish?

All because this state must keep up the surreal fantasy that Irish is the first language of this country when everyone knows that nobody speaks it in daily life apart from Gaeltacht areas where it is dying out.

Lives could potentially be lost because of this absurdity.

The Official Languages Act was passed due to pressure from Conradh na Gaelige and its affiliates. It's an organisation with one objective: the restoration of Irish as the common language of Ireland. It's an important part of their strategy that Irish be imposed on everyone, on street signage and official documents and websites at every opportunity.

Eugene Norman

Where are people seeing the requirement for the Irish language in any statute?

hmmm

We've indulged the Irish lobby enough over the years. Once the policy starts interfering with the safety of the public, it's time to shout "stop".

FishOnABike

Maybe it would help if those with the responsibility for overseeing the law (both those enacting and those enforcing it) could just write and read properly rather than trying to spuriously deflect the blame for their failures in stating and following the law, especially if as pointed out by the poster above, this problem was pointed out to them some time ago.

Shep_Dog

FishOnABike wrote: »

Maybe it would help if those with the responsibility for overseeing the law (both those enacting and those enforcing it) could just write and read properly rather than trying to spuriously deflect the blame for their failures in stating and following the law, especially if as pointed out by the poster above, this problem was pointed out to them some time ago.

It would help more if stupid requirements to promote the revival of Irish were not imposed on them. Their work is complicated enough as it is.

golfball37

If people don't like the Irish language and only want to live in a country where English predominates then they should move to the UK or Australia etc.

I am fairly lapsed on the cupla focail but I'd be damned if we should ever give up on it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

golfball37 wrote: »

If people don't like the Irish language and only want to live in a country where English predominates then they should move to the UK or Australia etc.

Absolutel bull**** for very obvious reasons - they already like in a country where English predominates.

I am fairly lapsed on the cupla focail but I'd be damned if we should ever give up on it.

Except that's not what anyone has suggested, now is it?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

FishOnABike

Shep_Dog wrote: »

It would help more if stupid requirements to promote the revival of Irish were not imposed on them. Their work is complicated enough as it is.

The relevant SI is a short document (available in English) and includes the template form to be used. If simple instructions with a sample form cannot be followed without making a complete dogs dinner of things perhaps those responsibile should consider their own ability rather than whining about side issues.

ancapailldorcha

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Rounding numbers here but assuming that there are 4.5 million people in the Republic of Ireland then that would signify that 81,000 people are using Irish in their daily lives. I find this highly improbable.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

FishOnABike wrote: »

The relevant SI is a short document (available in English) and includes the template form to be used. If simple instructions with a sample form cannot be followed without making a complete dogs dinner of things perhaps those responsibile should consider their own ability rather than whining about side issues.

makeing the roads safer is a side issue?

FishOnABike

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

makeing the roads safer is a side issue?

No, that is the main issue.

The side issue is deflecting attention onto the specific reason in this instance why the law is failing to make the roads safer.

The simple fact is those entrusted with the task of making our roads safer didn't do their job properly. They couldn't write and follow simple instructions.

That is why a number of prosecutions for drunk driving may fail and drivers who should morally be off the road may legally remain on the road.

Sand

Stheno wrote: »

Legislation to prevent this was passed this morning.

The core stupidity behind it cant be legislated away unfortunately.

Cedrus

Surely it's not beyond the capabilities of someone in the DPPs office or AGS to come up with a proforma bilingual coversheet that says, As Gaeilge agus as Bearla, "The machine generated numbers (in arabic numerals) on the attached printout prove that you were unfit to drive on the machine generated date (in arabic numerals) shown". Evidence presented in both official languages, case closed.

Do fingerprints etc. have to be presented as gaeilge as well?

Grudaire

This was a proper screw up, and the definition of unintended consequence. There are so many get out clauses in the official languages act that it isn't even the problem, the Irish language lobby wants to be able to use Irish with the state, not dilute other laws..

Interestingly the machine has the ability to print out in English OR Irish.. But not both. It's a pity that it was interpreted into law the way it was.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/legislation-signed-to-close-drink-driving-loophole-1.2361351

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

FishOnABike wrote: »

No, that is the main issue.

The side issue is deflecting attention onto the specific reason in this instance why the law is failing to make the roads safer.

The simple fact is those entrusted with the task of making our roads safer didn't do their job properly. They couldn't write and follow simple instructions.

That is why a number of prosecutions for drunk driving may fail and drivers who should morally be off the road may legally remain on the road.

If they caught the guy and gave him a ticket, I'd argue they did their job perfectly. Failing to accept responsbility for your actions and trying to worm out of the punishment is the side issue.

FishOnABike

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If they caught the guy and gave him a ticket, I'd argue they did their job perfectly. Failing to accept responsbility for your actions and trying to worm out of the punishment is the side issue.

The gardaí who intercepted these drivers did their job perfectly but have been let down by those further up the chain - our legislature, those who specified and accepted the equipment which did not comply with the legislation and those who ignored the warnings of this potential issue months ago.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

FishOnABike wrote: »

The gardaí who intercepted these drivers did their job perfectly but have been let down by those further up the chain - our legislature, those who specified and accepted the equipment which did not comply with the legislation and those who ignored the warnings of this potential issue months ago.

Not what you said here.

FishOnABike wrote: »

Maybe it would help if those with the responsibility for overseeing the law (both those enacting and those enforcing it) could just write and read properly rather than trying to spuriously deflect the blame for their failures in stating and following the law, especially if as pointed out by the poster above, this problem was pointed out to them some time ago.

Shep_Dog

Conradh na Gaelige stands up for the Irish language rights of drunks;

NEW emergency legislation that changes the legal requirement that alcohol breath statements be provided in both English and Irish may be a slippery slope in denying native speakers their language rights, Conradh na Gaeilge has warned.

Conradh's obsession with imposing Irish on the population knows no bounds.