We must rid ourselves of our ludicrous language laws

zeffabelli

gananam wrote: »

So what? The argument was that Irish is 'perfectly useless' to multinationals like Google. I was merely disproving that point, its irrelevant what other languages Google offers its products in.

Being facilitated by an anglophone US company.

Dear lord.

gananam

zeffabelli wrote: »

Being facilitated by an anglophone US company.

Dear lord.

We can't all be narrow minded and insular. I don't see why you should have a problem with multinationals using Irish. Irish speakers don't.

zeffabelli

gananam wrote: »

We can't all be narrow minded and insular. I don't see why you should have a problem with multinationals using Irish. Irish speakers don't.

Well some can... Evidently.

I don't have a problem with them using Irish.

I have a problem with Irish defenders pointing to US companies as part of their defence.

Why don't you make your own search engine and everything Google does and see what happens. Until then I can't take you seriously.

gananam

zeffabelli wrote: »

Why don't you make your own search engine and everything Google does and see what happens. Until then I can't take you seriously.

Whats wrong with just using the Irish version of Google? Are you unable to take Germans seriously if they use the German version of Google? I don't understand, what exactly is the problem?

keane2097

gananam wrote: »

So what? The argument was that Irish is 'perfectly useless' to multinationals like Google. I was merely disproving that point, its irrelevant what other languages Google offers its products in.

Of course it's relevant.

You are contending that Google offers its products in Irish proves it has some value, and your evidence for this is based on the same evidence we have that Pirate is valuable to them.

It seems a pedantic point at the very best. Unless differentiating between "perfectly useless" and "functionally useless" - essentially, "as useful as Pirate" - was your ultimate goal, all your work is ahead of you.

gananam

keane2097 wrote: »

Of course it's relevant.

You are contending that Google offers its products in Irish proves it has some value, and your evidence for this is based on the same evidence we have that Pirate is valuable to them.

It seems a pedantic point at the very best. Unless differentiating between "perfectly useless" and "functionally useless" was your ultimate goal, all your work is ahead of you.

Well actually the contention was that a wide range of multinationals provide their services in Irish, showing that Irish is not useless to them. It's a simple enough point, the claim was made that Irish is useless to them, however those companies are in fact using Irish, therefore Irish is clearly not useless to them.

As for functionally useless, what basis have you for the claim that Irish is functionally useless? People use Irish, I do every day, businesses also use Irish, for example the multinationals we were just talking about.

I think its about time people get over the claims of Irish being useless, the argument is getting a little threadbare.

zeffabelli

gananam wrote: »

Well actually the contention was that a wide range of multinationals provide their services in Irish, showing that Irish is not useless to them. It's a simple enough point, the claim was made that Irish is useless to them, however those companies are in fact using Irish, therefore Irish is clearly not useless to them.

As for functionally useless, what basis have you for the claim that Irish is functionally useless? People use Irish, I do every day, businesses also use Irish, for example the multinationals we were just talking about.

I think its about time people get over the claims of Irish being useless, the argument is getting a little threadbare.

Really. You think someone who only spoke Irish would get hired?

Get real.

The Corinthian

gananam wrote: »

Actually the translation work my friend does is for private companies, there is no legislative requirement on the likes of Google to provide things like Gmail in Irish or for Microsoft to provide Windows and other products in Irish.

There's also minimal cost. The reason that likes of Google produce Irish versions of anything is it costs them very little and it gains them customer loyalty from a small group. The expenditure involved merits the return.

Hell, we publish all our apps through the Hausa language, but only because it costs us next to nothing to do so. If it actually cost us something, we wouldn't bother.

And as I pointed out earlier, with Wikipedia (which I've noticed you're no longer mentioning) that return is very limited. Problem is that in Ireland is that the expenditure does not merit the return, especially when you translate and print government documents that are never used or take a significant chunk of educational resources and funnel them towards the language.

The Corinthian

zeffabelli wrote: »

Really. You think someone who only spoke Irish would get hired?

If the job was mandated by law to require Irish, even though it would never actually use the language he'd be correct. There's no shortage of barristers and solicitors who cram to pass that exam, never to use it again after they do.

Left to market forces, there's probably more languages in the World that require spoken Aramaic than Irish.

gananam

zeffabelli wrote: »

Really. You think someone who only spoke Irish would get hired?

Get real.

Do you think they are looking for people who only speak English?

keane2097

The Corinthian wrote: »

There's also minimal cost. The reason that likes of Google produce Irish versions of anything is it costs them very little and it gains them customer loyalty from a small group. The expenditure involved merits the return.

Hell, we publish all our apps through the Hausa language, but only because it costs us next to nothing to do so. If it actually cost us something, we wouldn't bother.

And as I pointed out earlier, with Wikipedia (which I've noticed you're no longer mentioning) that return is very limited. Problem is that in Ireland is that the expenditure does not merit the return, especially when you translate and print government documents that are never used or take a significant chunk of educational resources and funnel them towards the language.

Or let a raft of drunk drivers off the hook.

gananam

The Corinthian wrote: »

And as I pointed out earlier, with Wikipedia (which I've noticed you're no longer mentioning)

I never mentioned Wikipedia.

The Corinthian

gananam wrote: »

Do you think they are looking for people who only speak English?

LOL. Daft reply. They are looking for someone who speaks the languages required for the job, which would be English 99.99% of the time - Irish is typically only sought for legislative (i.e. artificially constructed) reasons and if connected to the Irish language industry.

Reality is that someone speaking only English will be preferred to someone speaking Irish, outside of those occasions. Someone with an additional language will possibly get a preference (all other things being equal), but if that language is Irish, they'll almost certainly be passed over by someone with a language like German or French.

The Corinthian

gananam wrote: »

I never mentioned Wikipedia.

Fraid you did:

Grudaire wrote: »

Like many of the most useful things available through Irish Facebook has been translated by a volunteer community of Irish Speakers. Other translations that have occurred include Firefox, Linux, Wikipedia, LibreOffice etc etc

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

gananam wrote: »

Do you think they are looking for people who only speak English?

I beleive the standard for the translation department is English plus the langauge you will be working in. Monolingual Irish don't have a chance, even if the job is in Irish as they'll need someone who can communicate with other employees on a global level.

Monolingual Enlgish would probabkly have no problem in other departments.

PopePalpatine

The Corinthian wrote: »

Fraid you did:

To be fair to gananam, it was Grudaire who mentioned Wikipedia.

The Corinthian

PopePalpatine wrote: »

To be fair to gananam, it was Grudaire who mentioned Wikipedia.

Actually, you're right. My bad. Apologies gananam.

Shep_Dog

gananam wrote: »

Well actually the contention was that a wide range of multinationals provide their services in Irish, showing that Irish is not useless to them. It's a simple enough point, the claim was made that Irish is useless to them, however those companies are in fact using Irish, therefore Irish is clearly not useless to them.

Dscribe the services? How many people use those services?

gananam wrote: »

As for functionally useless, what basis have you for the claim that Irish is functionally useless? People use Irish, I do every day, businesses also use Irish, for example the multinationals we were just talking about.

Do those multinationals really use Irish? Can you phone them and deal with them in Irish? Or, is it just that they've loaded the regionalisation files for the different locales of their applications? How many people use the Irish versions?

gananam wrote: »

I think its about time people get over the claims of Irish being useless, the argument is getting a little threadbare.

How useful is Irish to a native English speaker who does not live in a Gaeltacht? is it necessary or essential in any way?

katydid

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Do those multinationals really use Irish? Can you phone them and deal with them in Irish? Or, is it just that they've loaded the regionalisation files for the different locales of their applications? How many people use the Irish versions?

They just pay lip service to it - probably to tick a few boxes on the grant application.

I was talking to a student today who went all the way through primary and secondary school through Irish. I was asking him if he uses his Irish and he said that since he left school five years ago he has never had an opportunity to use it. He even said that a few summers ago he went on a holiday to the Gaeltacht for a week to try to get a chance to use it, but most people there spoke English to him, it was hard to find anyone to use his Irish on.

Kind of sad, really. But the reality.

keane2097

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Do those multinationals really use Irish? Can you phone them and deal with them in Irish? Or, is it just that they've loaded the regionalisation files for the different locales of their applications? How many people use the Irish versions?

You would literally have a much better chance of getting someone to deal with you in Pirate.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

katydid wrote: »

They just pay lip service to it - probably to tick a few boxes on the grant application.

I was talking to a student today who went all the way through primary and secondary school through Irish. I was asking him if he uses his Irish and he said that since he left school five years ago he has never had an opportunity to use it. He even said that a few summers ago he went on a holiday to the Gaeltacht for a week to try to get a chance to use it, but most people there spoke English to him, it was hard to find anyone to use his Irish on.

Kind of sad, really. But the reality.

Can't be that eager if he;s never bothered to find a local Irish-speaking club and meet up for a few drinks.

katydid

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Can't be that eager if he;s never bothered to find a local Irish-speaking club and meet up for a few drinks.

He's twenty four. Twenty four year olds don't go to Irish speaking clubs where a load of ancient Fáinne types sit around debating the cares of the world as Gaeilge. They hang out with their own kind. And their own kind don't speak Irish.

I asked him whether, when he meets up with his friends from school, they speak Irish. He said it depends; if they are on their own, then maybe, but they soon slip into English because they are more used to it now. Definitely not when others are around, as they would get queer looks. (His words, not mine)

gananam

katydid wrote: »

He's twenty four. Twenty four year olds don't go to Irish speaking clubs where a load of ancient Fáinne types sit around debating the cares of the world as Gaeilge. They hang out with their own kind. And their own kind don't speak Irish.

Ha, as it happens, I'm 24.
Your right, 24 year olds generally don't go to Irish language conversation groups frequented by older people, they do however play GAA in Irish with na Gaeil Óga, they do Yoga in Irish with Óga Yoga, or head up the mountains with na Cnocadóirí, or go to a comedy show in Irish, or a gig by Seo Linn or one of the other Irish language bands or get the shift in Club Conradh on student night, or get the shift at speed dating in Irish in Trinity or UCD, or get the shift at Oireachtas na Gaeilge (young people love the oireachtas, its a mad session).

There is a growing Irish language youth culture in the country outside the Gaeltachts, especially in Dublin, there are of course young Irish speakers who don't get involved in it, but there are others that do and just as the numbers of young Irish speakers is growing, the youth culture they generate for themselves is also growing.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Lockstep

This thread is way too Politics Café. Raise the standard of posting or this thread has run its course.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

So. We have established the real reasons we need for the Irish langauge:

1 - ATM for the Gaelgioiri.
2 - Chatting up girls in bars.

I guess one of them could be classed as political...

Shep_Dog

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So. We have established the real reasons we need for the Irish langauge:

1 - ATM for the Gaelgioiri.
2 - Chatting up girls in bars.

I guess one of them could be classed as political...

3 - To isolate ourselves from our neighbours.

4 - To be 'culturally correct'.

zeffabelli

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So. We have established the real reasons we need for the Irish langauge:

1 - ATM for the Gaelgioiri.
2 - Chatting up girls in bars.

I guess one of them could be classed as political...

Oh yeah because Irish is so romantic.... Must be up there with German for giving you the goodies.

Thoughts of the Aaram islands, itchy wool, bracing wind, stern frustrated lesbian nuns and the ladies just get swept off their feet.

Iwasfrozen

zeffabelli wrote: »

Oh yeah because Irish is so romantic.... Must be up there with German for giving you the goodies.

Thoughts of the Aaram islands, itchy wool, bracing wind, stern frustrated lesbian nuns and the ladies just get swept off their feet.

At least speaking German opens you up to the possibility of speaking to a wider pool of prospective partners who may not speak english. Irish doesn't.

Iwasfrozen

gananam wrote: »

Ha, as it happens, I'm 24.
Your right, 24 year olds generally don't go to Irish language conversation groups frequented by older people, they do however play GAA in Irish with na Gaeil Óga, they do Yoga in Irish with Óga Yoga, or head up the mountains with na Cnocadóirí, or go to a comedy show in Irish, or a gig by Seo Linn or one of the other Irish language bands or get the shift in Club Conradh on student night, or get the shift at speed dating in Irish in Trinity or UCD, or get the shift at Oireachtas na Gaeilge (young people love the oireachtas, its a mad session).

All of those pasttimes are already available at greater convinence and availability through the medium of English.