Anti Austerity Alliance - Keeping people in Poverty Trap

For Reals

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

It's a long and poorly written way of confirming that the far-left do indeed offer absolutely nothing.

This place is the perfect platform for supporters of the far-left to set out their stall.

It's very telling that this never ever actually happens.

The rare times actual policy is mentioned, its by opponents.

Nonsense. And where am I even eluding to setting out policies and in response to what policies from the post I'm responding to?
Your post has no substance to it.

BoJack Horseman

For Reals wrote: »

where am I even eluding to setting out policies

As I said.... No where & the 'antis' never really dare to either.

On that blue-moon event when policy creeps forth, the reality that the antis' have less than nothing to offer Irish people becomes apparent.

K-9

Mod:
Bojack and ForReals, cut it out please or take it to pm.

BoJack Horseman

K-9 wrote: »

Mod:
Bojack and ForReals, cut it out please or take it to pm.

Cut what out?

What did I say that was innacurate or contrary to charter?

I'd just like to see a case for the AAA....
30+ posts in & its yet to be attempted.
When a point/thread is created, there is usually a rebuttal.... except when it's about our far-left.

I welcome & await the line in the forum charter highlighting that stating this is a no-no.

Hotblack Desiato

joe_six_cans wrote: »

very few public servants have seen close to 30% in cuts , most haven not seen cuts of half that when you take into account increments

Why are you assuming everyone gets increments? Teachers have something like 20+ increments (very little opportunity for promotion though) so many of them will be, a lot of other grades only have a few so after maybe 5-6 years in the job you are earning as much as you ever will, no matter how good you are at your job.

The levies and cuts affect pay increments or not, it's still a pay cut, and incremental pay scales are not exclusive to the public sector

infacteh wrote: »

Public Sector pay was not protected, but I think it was a golden opportunity to overhaul the PS and bring in much needed change and improvement, but nothing has changed. Not in my section anyway. I just get paid less for doing more!

Sure but politically it's easier to just cut numbers rather than tackle the problem areas, HSE being the worst and the most costly, but that's the fault of politicians and senior management, not everyone else who works there.

For Reals

It's all hype alright, we're doing great and damn those never elected to government anti austerity begrudgers for this....right?

'Homeless Families up 76% since January'
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0920/729079-homelessness/

Open your eyes or at least accept that a vast section of society didn't make money in the Celtic tiger and it wasn't down to bad luck, rather design (I feel like I'm stating the obvious but based on the op, sadly no).

We are doomed to continually repeat this economic shame of boom for some and bust for all (except a few in the know) unless we rid ourselves of FG/FF.

Seth Brundle

For Reals wrote: »

We are doomed to continually repeat this economic shame of boom for some and bust for all (except a few in the know) unless we rid ourselves of FG/FF.

...and replace it with what alternative?
One that will bankrupt the country completely and drive all foreign investment away?
Whilst we could do so much better than FF or FG, these alternatives currently don't exist.
SF and the other left parties would stifle any economic growth and drive up unemployment.
Let's not pretend that the anti-austerity economic pirates could steer the country away from economic annihilation.

Hotblack Desiato

You do have to ask questions when 2+ million people are on medical cards, and 1+ million are on free travel passes. There is a huge number of people in this country who simply are not interested in earning a living, and the politicians appease them at every opportunity.

For Reals

For Reals wrote: »

We are doomed to continually repeat this economic shame of boom for some and bust for all (except a few in the know) unless we rid ourselves of FG/FF.

Give us an idea of what the country will be like if this did indeed happen.

For Reals

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Give us an idea of what the country will be like if this did indeed happen.

kbannon wrote: »

...and replace it with what alternative?
One that will bankrupt the country completely and drive all foreign investment away?
Whilst we could do so much better than FF or FG, these alternatives currently don't exist.
SF and the other left parties would stifle any economic growth and drive up unemployment.
Let's not pretend that the anti-austerity economic pirates could steer the country away from economic annihilation.

Why is the only option bankrupting the country? We've had that with the current 'safe bets'.
I remember FF people on here saying a vote for Labour would bring the IMF to our door, and what happened after people stuck with FF?
As regards FG, similar to FF they are involved in cronyism and underhanded policy application. They are not transparent and we have a lot neededing to be clarified. FG where supposed to be the clean slate this time. We got more of the same, mark the date for the next recession in your calander.

The economy; it has improved immensely....so what? We have to realise the books being on the up and the quality of life for people differ greatly and only have as much in common with each other as the government of the day wills.
And chasing away business? By taxing them?

Don't do yourselves the diservice of beleaving the spin that the only alternative constitutes some Dickensian/Stalinist set up or free money for nothing. That's ridiculous.
And I read people railing about sections of society like some lads on the dole destroyed the economy.
Funnier still are the posters cribbing about all the luxuries the unemployed get and the life of Riley we all have thanks to left wing parties and groups who NEVER sat in government. What a joke.

An alternative? A fair transparent government who don't dodge questions.
An end to jobs and contracts for the good ol' boys.
A slow burn set of cut backs and tax increases. No slash and burn affecting the poorest in society the most.
No bull****ting the public with quangos like Irish Water to cook the books for Europe or to sneak in a tax rather than saving us all a fortune by just raising taxes as needed and explaining that need.
These were some of the things Kenny promised which is why I voted Fine Gael, like a sucker.

In closing: people fear change because if we don't go with FF/FG we'll destroy the economy?
Well sticking with FF/FG we destroyed the economy, immigration is still on the rise as is homelessness and child poverty. Well done lads, vote vote vote for DeValera.....

Seth Brundle

(Bear with me as I'm responding via my phone).

Firstly, the promises made by the left wing groups make the assumption that the money will be easily available through both so called rich taxes (which won't bring in that much) and also from additional borrowings. This is not sustainable.

I did say how there could easily be better alternatives than FG and FF. We just haven't got them. None are better than the crap that is FF or FG.

I've attended enough business meetings, lunches and functions to know the opinions of many employers including large ones.
Regarding the tax issue, this is a very big issue. Don't kid yourself that the foreign companies are here for the workforce. We have stiff competition in Eastern Europe and India. Many of these companies will move were the tax rates to go up because the infrastructure exists elsewhere for them.

In terms of jobs for the boys, do you really believe that this won't exist under any other form of government? Really?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

For Reals

kbannon wrote: »

(Bear with me as I'm responding via my phone).

Firstly, the promises made by the left wing groups make the assumption that the money will be easily available through both so called rich taxes (which won't bring in that much) and also from additional borrowings. This is not sustainable.

I did say how there could easily be better alternatives than FG and FF. We just haven't got them. None are better than the crap that is FF or FG.
........

In terms of jobs for the boys, do you really believe that this won't exist under any other form of government? Really?

Refreshing to get a response not trying to win points or screaming 'won't somebody think of the children?!?'

All I can say is it's 100% jobs for the boys every time with FF/FG, we keep expecting these bottom feeders to change for some reason, or worse, not bothered by the cronyism as it's 'par for the course, sure what can you do?' mentality.
I believe any new team would at least be slower in setting up shop for 'their own'. FF/FG have a whole system in place. The connected in FF will be rubbing their greasy hands together in the wings should they get back in.
I give benefit of the doubt for any new blood and even if proven to be as bad as FF/FG in that regard at least the country may have time to take a breath for a period.

As for the promises made by left wing groups, they haven't the experience of being in government, granted, but considering the atomic bomb left by FF and being dragged over the coals by FG, I'll risk change thank you very much. I mean it's actually not even possible for the next government to create such a disaster without years of intentional abuse.

Wanting a decent, honourable transparent government may be naive, but bringing in the same sneaks (FG) or gangsters (FF) and expecting a fair deal for most of us, is equally if not more naive.

Seth Brundle

I guess to prove me wrong, is anyone aware of a public advert of employment for a position within either SF or the socialist party?
They employ people. They pay them. How did they recruit them?

For Reals

kbannon wrote: »

I guess to prove me wrong, is anyone aware of a public advert of employment for a position within either SF or the socialist party?
They employ people. They pay them. How did they recruit them?

I know the main parties advertise on their websites and preference goes to party affiliates, which would make sense considering it's positions based on pushing a certain ideology. It's the supposed impartial and/or tax payer financed positions we need look at.
Putting your girlfriend or driver on state funded boards like, which FF/FG are at, we know for a fact.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote:

Give us an idea of what the country will be like if this did indeed happen.

For Reals wrote: »

..
An alternative? A fair transparent government who don't dodge questions.
An end to jobs and contracts for the good ol' boys.

Sounds glorious. However none of the parties of the left ever answer any of the questions regarding their policies and their knock on effects. Their basic economic literacy is in question, and they refuse to step up to defend it.
What makes you think that parties that refuse to defend their policies out of government, would be a bastion of transparency in government?

For Reals wrote: »

..
A slow burn set of cut backs and tax increases. No slash and burn affecting the poorest in society the most.

Which party is promising this? Please read my previous point regarding the defense of policies and costings and bear that in mind.

For Reals wrote: »

..
No bull****ting the public with quangos like Irish Water to cook the books for Europe or to sneak in a tax rather than saving us all a fortune by just raising taxes as needed and explaining that need.

The Irish Water thread has plenty of explanation regarding its merits. I'd rather not get into that here. But I would like to point out quite simply that you using 'cooking the books' quite literally means 'save the taxpayer money' by moving Irish Water off balance sheet. Why is 'saving the taxpayer money' a negative? Again, is this an economic literacy issue?
--
Are there any other positives (not non-negatives) that you can give us about voting outside of the 'establishment'? Given that the thread is about the Anti-Austerity-Alliance, what would they bring to Ireland? What would be the benefits of electing their representatives?

Permabear

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Godge

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

They are worse than that.

http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-minister-found-guilty-of-religious-discrimination-495007-Jun2012/


"The Fair Employment Tribunal has said that Alan Lennon was overlooked for appointment of chairman at Northern Ireland Water by Newry/Armagh MP Conor Murphy because he was Protestant."


This sentence is ironic on so many levels when talking about SF policies in the South.

K-9

Thread isn't about SF though so anything about AAA?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

For Reals

Deleted User wrote: »

Sounds glorious. However none of the parties of the left ever answer any of the questions regarding their policies and their knock on effects. Their basic economic literacy is in question, and they refuse to step up to defend it.
What makes you think that parties that refuse to defend their policies out of government, would be a bastion of transparency in government?

Nothing. But they've yet to be proven shysters in government. FG/FF make a profession of it.

Deleted User wrote: »

Which party is promising this? Please read my previous point regarding the defense of policies and costings and bear that in mind.

No idea. I was asked what alternative I would want/expect/hope for.

Deleted User wrote: »

The Irish Water thread has plenty of explanation regarding its merits. I'd rather not get into that here. But I would like to point out quite simply that you using 'cooking the books' quite literally means 'save the taxpayer money' by moving Irish Water off balance sheet. Why is 'saving the taxpayer money' a negative? Again, is this an economic literacy issue?

it's not saving the taxpayer money. it's recategorised funds taken from public pockets, but mainly because IW is a waste of money and wasn't needed.

Deleted User wrote: »

Are there any other positives (not non-negatives) that you can give us about voting outside of the 'establishment'? Given that the thread is about the Anti-Austerity-Alliance, what would they bring to Ireland? What would be the benefits of electing their representatives?

For me, I would not put faith in proven liars and cheats. I would rather try an alternative to proven me feiners out for their own. That's not political naivety, it's common sense.
I know FF/FG couldn't give two f***s about the working poor. It would be insane to vote for them.

For Reals

Permabear wrote: »

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Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

No I'm not. We are however 100% guaranteed cronyism with FF/FG. I guess it's easy to misquote when you choose not to show quotes.

For Reals wrote:

All I can say is it's 100% jobs for the boys every time with FF/FG, we keep expecting these bottom feeders to change for some reason, or worse, not bothered by the cronyism as it's 'par for the course, sure what can you do?' mentality.
I believe any new team would at least be slower in setting up shop for 'their own'. FF/FG have a whole system in place. The connected in FF will be rubbing their greasy hands together in the wings should they get back in.
I give benefit of the doubt for any new blood and even if proven to be as bad as FF/FG in that regard at least the country may have time to take a breath for a period.

I am saying we will automatically have cronyism and lies should we get FF/FG in again.

Permabear is using the FG slide of hand technique to dismiss my opinion by giving a hint of truth to the misdirection.

K-9

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

SF are hardly bedfellows with AAA though which given this thread is about the latter, seems a bit of a cheap shot.

People going into a thread about FG and listing FF transgressions would seem odd and a bit off topic too.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

K-9

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Rather defeatist. Might as well elect FF again so.

That's a classic tactic used across these forums, especially by supporters of the non-establishment parties. Rather than argue for the merits of a far-left outfit such as AAA or PBP, they will rant on about the crimes and transgressions of FF and FG (note how, two lines into his first post on the thread, For Reals was referring to Fianna Fail "butchering the nation") and try to argue that AAA/PBP/etc. will be better just because they're different.

Indeed, SF bashing in an AAA or PBP thread is a classic tactic.

ancapailldorcha

K-9 wrote: »

Rather defeatist. Might as well elect FF again so.

I think that, for a lot of people it's down to choosing the least of several evils.

Dohnjoe

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think that, for a lot of people it's down to choosing the least of several evils.

Psychologically we also have a tendency to focus heavily on bad or corrupt politicians

The majority of politicians aren't corrupt, do their job and try to leave a relatively decent legacy

For Reals

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That's all very insightful but you skipped the parts were you blatantly misquoted me twice to aide your efforts in writing off any idea of there being a chance, however slim of a government without the expected FF/FG cronyism.

Permabear wrote: »

I'd personally welcome any effort by AAA supporters to outline the merits of their party's policies, as opposed to ranting about other parties.

You may recall the topic of the thread is the frankly crazy supposition that parties like the AAA want to keep people in a poverty trap so they can maintain their minority low level support.
Your responses range from you not knowing their merits and pretty much better the devil you know. Which is safe I suppose as long as you are not working class.

ancapailldorcha

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Psychologically we also have a tendency to focus heavily on bad or corrupt politicians

The majority of politicians aren't corrupt, do their job and try to leave a relatively decent legacy

Depends on your definition of the word "corruption". You have a higher opinion of them than I do. How many would vote against pay rises or pension cuts for themselves?

Jolly Red Giant

Okay - where to start

kbannon wrote: »

...and replace it with what alternative?
One that will bankrupt the country completely and drive all foreign investment away?
Whilst we could do so much better than FF or FG, these alternatives currently don't exist.
SF and the other left parties would stifle any economic growth and drive up unemployment.
Let's not pretend that the anti-austerity economic pirates could steer the country away from economic annihilation.

Let's be clear - this country was bankrupted by the antics of FF (ably assisted by FG on local councils) in creating a property bubble through massive tax breaks for the spivs and speculators and then socialising their gambling debts.

Since 2008 more than €30billion has been hacked out of the economy - and this is what has 'stifled' the economy - coupled with the fact that the government are paying €8billion a year in interest repayments on the bailout and borrowing another €6billion a year to pay the interest and increasing the debt as a consequence.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You do have to ask questions when 2+ million people are on medical cards, and 1+ million are on free travel passes. There is a huge number of people in this country who simply are not interested in earning a living, and the politicians appease them at every opportunity.

There are 2 million people with medical cards because their incomes/living standards are so low as to be on the poverty line. The travel passes apply to OAPs - most of whom are in receipt of the basic state pension and use the travel pass to visit their families. For ten years my father used his travel pass twice a week to travel 60 miles both ways to visit me and his grandchildren - he could never afford a car and at that time I didn't have the money for a car either. If the travel pass didn't exist he would have rarely seen his grandchildren, living alone and not creating the loving memories my children have of their grandfather.

kbannon wrote: »

Firstly, the promises made by the left wing groups make the assumption that the money will be easily available through both so called rich taxes (which won't bring in that much) and also from additional borrowings. This is not sustainable.

claptrap - any socialist worth their salt knows that the rich elites would do everything in their power to resist a left government, just as they do everything in their power to avoid paying tax (ably assisted by their political lapdogs in FF/FG/LP). Similarly, it is nonsense to argue that the left would just 'borrow' money particularly when the current government are the ones borrowing €6bllion a year to pay interest on gambling debts.

kbannon wrote: »

I've attended enough business meetings, lunches and functions to know the opinions of many employers including large ones.

And we have to be dictated to by these individuals - who have one objective - making money and lining their own pockets irrespective of its impact on anyone else.

kbannon wrote: »

Regarding the tax issue, this is a very big issue. Don't kid yourself that the foreign companies are here for the workforce. We have stiff competition in Eastern Europe and India. Many of these companies will move were the tax rates to go up because the infrastructure exists elsewhere for them.

Yes - they may - indeed many move now because they can cut costs by 1% - after rifling the Irish economy for every penny they can suck out of it.

The multinational sector account for something over 100,000 jobs - close to 7%-8% of the entire workforce and about 15 months of emigration over the past few years. The assumption is that every multi-national would move (no evidence of this) and that the jobs could not be maintained if they did pull out. This is a false assumption and is based on continuing with the current failed economic policies rather than an alternative possibility.

kbannon wrote: »

In terms of jobs for the boys, do you really believe that this won't exist under any other form of government? Really?

power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely - for the capitalist.

Socialists approach political power on the basis that no one can make economic gain from political office. That is why socialists insist that all public representatives should only receive the AIW. The cronyism that exists is a cronyism based on lining peoples pockets - when you are prohibited from lining your pocket what is the incentive of cronyism.