Working way too much overtime, no lunches

MarkAnthony

kippy wrote: »

EDIT:

I see now, you are a solicitor. Yer in the same boat as accountants.
Ye loose major parts of yer late teens and twenties to put in the time to get yer qualifications etc I know plenty of these people.
Granted ye might reap the rewards later in life financially, but you'll never get those hours back in yer early life.
I have nothing but sympathy for those two professions and those just starting out in them. Blinded by the corporate requirements.

I'm a paralegal of sorts going down the Bar route (in more ways than one) it's quite the opposite problem. Sole traders, under employed and poorly paid.

As for the hours and early life - even when I was working mad hours at 21 I still had more than enough time and energy to have a life. Granted it's different with a wife and kids, but really I had the time of my life. Work hard play hard bollocks perhaps but I enjoyed it!

MarkAnthony

TimeToShine wrote: »

I was sympathetic until I saw the edit above which says that you're working for a law firm.

Law with the big firms means 10-12 hour days for the next few years. You should have known this when you started. The bigger firms will be paying you upwards of €37k at 21 but you will be expected to work 9-9. In short, your life will disappear.

If this is your dream job, then it is safe to say it's probably with one of the bigger firms. In that case, I'm afraid there is absolutely nothing you can do.

You might have me confused with the OP. Also see post above.

If I could do what I do 24/7 I would but I need time to be on boards. My work at the moment is unpaid so I also have to work PT to support myself.

MarkAnthony

EDIT: Quite enough back and forth from me. I'd be delighted to discuss anything by polite PM.

To be fair I think most people are being quite sensible in thread and offering good advice. While it's true there are people that live any die for the company, there are also those malcontents than believe anything over and above a contract filled out in triplicate should involve sextruple(sp?) time, and time off in lieu. Obviously the answer lies somewhere in the middle OP - I wish you all the best!

dudara

OP - what industry/profession do you work in? And are you salaried?

Without this kind of information, it's hard to provide you with more detail. I regularly work 10+hr days, but it's well balanced

_davidsmith_

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I'm a paralegal of sorts going down the Bar route

Ha told you all Mr 6 figure works in a mail room

sbsquarepants

Op I was in a very similar position to you not so long ago. Company had struggled for a couple of years pay cuts etc, then there was a complete 180 all of a sudden - mountains of work. They tried the old "you have to do it, we need you" line but I told them politely to piss off - less work meant less money, therefore more work must mean more - they weren't too happy but after a couple of fairly unpleasant months where I stood my ground and walked out on the dot at 5 leaving mountains of work behind me they stumped up a sizeable raise. Way more than I hoped for in fact.

Long story short - if they actually need you, they'll pay for you. If they aren't willing to pay, they couldn't need you all that badly. Most employers will try to get as much work out of you for as little money as possible - that's their job, to look out for themselves, yours is to look out for you!

Also I wouldn't be all that sure that a contract to work unlimited hours for free would stand up to any legal scrutiny, should push come to shove.(I had the exact same clause in mine). Any contract that's in breach of the labour laws is not enforceable.

MarkAnthony

_davidsmith_ wrote: »

Ha told you all Mr 6 figure works in a mail room

I'm quite open and frank with my situation David, I'm also very happy with what I do. Sorry you feel the need to scoff when it's been explained to you that in certain professions it's quite easily obtainable. Care to share what you do and your advice?

Franky whether someone works in the mail room, sweeps the streets or is a consultant in a hospital I don't consider anyone better or worse than anyone else, until they give me reason to that is

_davidsmith_

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I'm quite open and frank with my situation David, I'm also very happy with what I do. Sorry you feel the need to scoff when it's been explained to you that in certain professions it's quite easily obtainable. Care to share what you do and your advice?

Franky whether someone works in the mail room, sweeps the streets or is a consultant in a hospital I don't consider anyone better or worse than anyone else, until they give me reason to that is

I dont mind what anyone does for a living, or where they work. But posting bullsh*t like this

"it's a suck it up IMHO especially at 21. Now's the time to put in the 10 and 12 hour days and get to were you can in your career. I did when I was that age.

Maybe I'm jaded that I'll have to do it again in my late 30s but that's what happens when you change careers.

Being blunt if you're not willing to do it, many will."

when the guy was obviously needing help is a d*ck move, espically from a guy who should know better, seen as you were doing the same "at his age"
Your negative views on working attitudes are not constructive. IMHO

MarkAnthony

_davidsmith_ wrote: »

I dont mind what anyone does for a living, or where they work. But posting bullsh*t like this

"it's a suck it up IMHO especially at 21. Now's the time to put in the 10 and 12 hour days and get to were you can in your career. I did when I was that age.

Maybe I'm jaded that I'll have to do it again in my late 30s but that's what happens when you change careers.

Being blunt if you're not willing to do it, many will."

when the guy was obviously needing help is a d*ck move, espically from a guy who should know better, seen as you were doing the same "at his age"
Your negative views on working attitudes are not constructive. IMHO

Soemtimes you need to be told how it is. Why should I know better - I've explained my position. As for the d*ck moves I've still yet to see your constructive advice based on your industry. Perhaps you're just a angry person - have you considered a career change to something you might enjoy more or are the problems at home? I only ask as you seem very easily wound up when someone posts an oppsing point of view. Perhas a bad experiance at work - care to share that?

Also all you need to do is copy and paste the Quote tag and end it with [/quote]. Hope that helps your formatting. Jaysus you wouldn't last long in the mailroom! :pac:

_davidsmith_

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Soemtimes you need to be told how it is. Why should I know better - I've explained my position. As for the d*ck moves I've still yet to see your constructive advice based on your industry. Perhaps you're just a angry person - have you considered a career change to something you might enjoy more or are the problems at home? I only ask as you seem very easily wound up when someone posts an oppsing point of view. Perhas a bad experiance at work - care to share that?



Im not going raise to your childish digs there, they're a little beneath me.

*opposing *perhaps *experience

MarkAnthony

_davidsmith_ wrote: »

Im not going raise to your childish digs there, they're a little beneath me.

*opposing *perhaps *experience

That's not coming out in your posting to be frank. You've decided to single my posts out and attack me personally at each stage. Pretty childish.

Thanks for trying to correct my spelling. You're on to a loser there I'm afraid due to dyslexia. If you go back and edit your post try playing with the quote tag it'll make things more readable. I think all you're missing is the '[/Quote]'. Further apologies as I don't have a spell check on this browser - at work. They probably don't think I'm worth one in the mail room.

testaccount123

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Soemtimes you need to be told how it is.

But this isnt "how it is". You did this and now you work in a junior role in your mid thirties, you arent in any place to give anyone career advice. Some people work themselves into the ground because thats the only way they can see themselves being of value to a business. Well it isnt. We have guys on retainer working 2/3 hours a month for us earning more than you do in that entire calendar month.

The OP needs to find a role which he enjoys and is good at and will allow him a decent work-life balance and the ability to grow his career organically without having to make enormous sacrifices with his health and personal life.

I am also in my mid thirties and make a very comfortable living doing a job I enjoy, Ive never had to habitually work long hours. The notion of giving up your youth for career is deplorable and terrible advice to give anyone, especially when it is completely unnecessary.

MarkAnthony

testaccount123 wrote: »

But this isnt "how it is". You did this and now you work in a junior role in your mid thirties, you arent in any place to give anyone career advice.

That's hardly a fair statement. I worked in a career I enjoyed until I didn;t and I moved. Are you suggesting only people in senior roles can give advice and people that do a career change can't? That doesn't make alot of sense given I have double the experiance of starting out that you would seem to. Putting that aside...

testaccount123 wrote: »

Some people work themselves into the ground because thats the only way they can see themselves being of value to a business. Well it isnt. We have guys on retainer working 2/3 hours a month for us earning more than you do in that entire calendar month.

I'm sure they do, but how did they get there? They're either hugely in demand or very experianced. How did they get that experiance at a very senior level?

testaccount123 wrote: »

The OP needs to find a role which he enjoys and is good at and will allow him a decent work-life balance and the ability to grow his career organically without having to make enormous sacrifices with his health and personal life.

I couldn't agree more.

testaccount123 wrote: »

I am also in my mid thirties and make a very comfortable living doing a job I enjoy, Ive never had to habitually work long hours. The notion that giving up your youth for career is deplorable and terrible advice to give anyone, especially when it is completely unnecessary.

That's your take and I congratulate you on managing to do that in the field you chose, would you be preapred to share what that it? I can only speak from my own experiance. I'd also suggest that 10/12 hour days 5 days a week is not giving up your youth, but I've covered that.

witchgirl26

OP - you need to figure out if this is how everyone in the profession you're in (not just your company) at your level & the next up is working or if it's a company specific problem. And you need to speak up. It's not good for either yourself or the work you're doing for you not to be getting breaks during the day. Lots of studies & research have shown that people are more productive if they get their normal breaks (I'm not talking about at occasional points when that might have to drop).

I started my career in a big 4 accounting firm & I put in the overtime when it was needed. During the time I had some personal stuff going on & it taught me that your job isn't everything & it's ok to go home on time at least 1 day a week. I did have an argument with a manager over that but pointed out that I had made sure I wasn't dumping work on others & would she prefer me well rested & on the ball or wrecked & potentially missing things.

You need to look at the holistic picture of you, your career & your health. It's a balance. And you have to voice up your concerns with the level of work with your manager. I don't mean moan but just ask for help - knowing when to ask for help is a strength, not a weakness.

LegacyUser

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I think people have warned the OP of that and put forward the possibility it's newbie inefficiency. I certainly think that's a large part of it evidence by he's the last one their other than the MD.

+ 1 that was the part that jumped out of me straight away in the OP. It's easy to talk in generals about people doing or not doing unpaid overtime but each job is different and each person is different - I do a lot of unpaid overtime in my job but it's off set by good perks like the whole office being flown to Denmark for the weekend for our Xmas party.

If everyone was staying late and the OP felt pressure to stay I could understand being annoyed but if everyone else including the MD is going then either your trying to go above and beyond or your struggling and it sounds like your struggling OP and your boss isn't aware because you haven't spoken up. They prob think your staying late to try and impress in a new job.

You need to start being confident OP, you need to take your lunch and you need to speak up that your not getting through the work in a reasonable time frame and need guidance on how you should be doing it.

Alf Veedersane

I didn't read through it all but there are oftewn a few situations where yoiu have a situation like the OP is in:

1) It's a large accountancy, solicitors etc. The reality is that it might well be expected. There is work to be done and you do it and it takes as long as it takes.

2) You're in a company that's not small nor is it big and you're taking on work to stay involved. Clients are expecting more for less cost to them because of how things were in the worst of the recession. The work is coming in but there isn't scope to increase resources yet so more is expected of the staff that are there so they may have to stay late to get work finished. Not as rule but it's just happening more often than would normally be expected.

30 You're learning the ropes and some things just take longer. That's not being slow or inefficient. It's often someone being conscientious about not making mistakes and taking that bit longer to complete tasks.

sbssquarepants was in a situation something like 2). I know a couple of people in similar situations and the staff turnover is relatively high. People have left but new people come in to keep the wheels turning at the same cost to the company.

In some cases, if you want to work in that area, it's just something you have to do. It is what it is and there isn't really scope to just walk out at 5.30 or whatever every day. If you do, you'll find you won't get very far.

In some cases, it is unrealistic to expect that level of work and if you're being expected to do more becauset he company don't want to spend money bringing in more staff, then you should be bringing this up with management.

dudara

@MarkAnthony & _davidsmith_ - Please stop, it's derailing the thread.

dudara

Stepping Stone

OP, to start with, take your lunch. Get outside, eat decent food and relax a bit. Working through is counterproductive.

When I started, I had to put in extra hours, but I spend a lot of them learning and thinking how to work smarter. As a result, after a few months, I did my 9-5 and produced a hell of a lot more than people who were putting in extra hours. As a result, I left them well behind. You just can't function properly if you are putting in too many hours.

My advice is to work smart. If you are going to continue working there, look at everything that is being done wrong. Learn from it, apply it to your cv and remember, what is on your desk today will be done in time. If they are not meeting deadlines, that fault lies with management, not a new starter.

TG1

OP, I think you need to look at every aspect of this to see what needs to change and what you need to get used to.
Firstly, most straight out of college jobs require overtime, I'm a year out and a friend is currently putting in 70 hour weeks. She's a tax accountant. If she whinged in September she would be laughed at! Likewise I'm currently working my contract hours but in December and May I won't be, and I won't complain. It's expected (and I'm not an accountant or solicitor, it's not just those two professions).
That being said, it's not all the time, it should be a give and take. Find out from colleagues if this role is just in a busy period. If it is I'd say you may get used to it!
If it's not that the job is just busy at the moment, look at how you're working. Are you planning and scheduling your day, or are you just fire fighting whatever happens to land on your desk? Every job has an element of fire fighting, but being organised, using your online calendar and a diary, blocking out time for admin and prep work all help.
You also need to look at what support you have received. Managers don't have time to be worrying about you. They usually expect that trainees or grads will let them know if they have a serious knowledge or skills gap that is causing them to be inefficiant.. how is your dialogue with your manager? Have you had any reviews (formal or informal). Can you set aside a weekly 5 min catch up to run through your main priorities with a manager or more experienced colleague? I was swamped in a previous role, and set up a daily 5 min session with someone who had been there 8 years. She was able to point out that when I had urgent work for our director, the project I was working on for my manager needed to be taken offline for a while and the delivery date pushed back. Just having her backup made it easier for me to raise it with my manager.
Lastly on the lunch thing, no one can work with no food! Try to take a 30 min break, but if you can't on the odd day make sure you have convenience food in the office. It's not ideal, but I always keep a box of cereal at work so I can grab a bowl at my desk when things get manic!

Streetwalker

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Honestly OP legislation aside it's a suck it up IMHO especially at 21. Now's the time to put in the 10 and 12 hour days and get to were you can in your career. I did when I was that age.

Maybe I'm jaded that I'll have to do it again in my late 30s but that's what happens when you change careers.

Being blunt if you're not willing to do it, many will.

Please don't listen to this advice OP. Stand up for yourself and learn self worth.

callaway92

laydownthelaw! wrote: »

You have to start learning to speak up.This isn't an unusual problem for people starting out in the workplace.Firstly, take your lunch.Down tools, walk away and take 30 mins or whatever to eat.You are entitled to it, nobody will begrudge you it (despite what you might think).The work is going nowhere, it will still be there when you've eaten.
Secondly, you need to speak to your manager about your workload.If you keep doing overtime, it will be expected that you will do it, if that makes sense.You need to talk to your manager about your worklaod, but more importantly you need to stand up and walk out at finishing time every day.Nobody is going to tell you to go home, and nobody is going to thank you for staying.It's up to you.If the work doesn't get done, then it's evidence that they need more staff.The only thing for you to do is flag it loud and clear that certain things will be delayed or won't get done because of the workload, and keep saying that.
You'll learn that the only person looking out for you in the workplace is you.Don't ever forget that, so it's up to you to lay down what you will and won't do within reason, because nobody else is going to do it for you.No company will go under because you did your working hours, then went home.No job is so important that you can't eat your lunch (unless you're a medical person, maybe).

This is an excellent post. Well said.

LegacyUser

Hey guys - OP here, sorry for replying so late but I've been very busy as one can imagine.

t Thanks so much for all of the excellent feedback. A lot of different strong viewpoints that I have definitely taken on board.

Just so I'm not replying to each post indiviudally I'll give a comprehensive reply to most of the feedback.

Firstly the industry in question is Marketing/Web Design. Moreso Its an agency offering clients these services.

At my age I definitely do want to put in the hours. Not specifically to make a name for myself but more so that I can be happy with my output. I think I have identified the drawbacks of why I might be working so many hours.

The system. There is a system in place where project is done, sent to print, sent to higher staff. and then feedback is given before sent to client. However if a comma is out of place. It must be fixed and go through the whole process myself. I've identified this as my fault and have put more effort into proofing to improve productivity. Whereas in my last place it would just be a "Hey, just add in a comma there and good to go".

Second is meetings. One of the reasons I left my last place was lack of communication with senior staff. No one knew what was going on. it's the complete opposite here, however there is a meeting every hour which eats into time to get work done. there was a 2 hour meeting on a simple report client suggested while I had a mountain of work piled on.

Third. We are at the clients mercy completely. Understandable as they pay the bills. But if a client asks for a report or a complete overhaul at 5:45. It's getting done tonight. And often passed to me as I'm the newest in.

I asked around and apparently there were more people here at some point. The numbers quickly thinned which explains why I have a HUGE notice period to give before I can leave. The turnover here is high from what I've heard. A complete opposite from what I was told in my interview. With a fraction of the staff I assume the same workload is being kept.

I have started taking my lunches and leaving earlier even if there is work to be done. The annoyed looks are worth it. I acknowledge that alot of it might be down to newbie efficiency but I can see myself not enjoying the overall atmosphere of almost being afraid of client. It's not a healthy mindset and I can see it in my co-workers as they are always worried over something. There's never a "nice day" in work where you put in your day, feel good and leave. There's always a crisis.

Now I'm just debating if I should go back to a job similar to the one I had before, building and maintaining a website in house.. I tested he waters in an agency and it's not for me. Now what to do with a 2.5 month notice period.

Thanks all. You have been amazing.

Alf Veedersane

I'd you do ultimately decide it isn't the place for you, it doesn't mean that a similar role in a different company wouldn't be right for you. There seems to be several issues at play here that cause you to work unduly long hours and they seem to be more to do with the company than the job itself.

Best of luck with it!

MarkAnthony

Best of luck OP. You seem to be in an industry that will allow you to move. Don't worry too much about notice periods, apart from not being able to get a reference there is very little that will be done to an employee who doesn't abide by them.