Nissan Leaf and some general EV Qs

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Leaf was invented at a time when batteries cost twice what they do now so you can't compare the two. Nissan did an amazing job to keep costs down using existing technologies.

i3 development started 5 years before the Leaf and it came on the market the same time as the mk1.5 Leaf. In fact Nissan used a cheaper battery chemistry where BMW actually put the engineering resources in to use a more advanced battery chemistry in a higher output pack built into a car using production methods and materials both new to the auto industry and in some cases new to material science as a whole. Even down to the things like adhesives BMW's suppliers really pushed the envelope.

Again I own a Leaf.. I own an i3... I'm probably moving to a Tesla next year. I want to be as honest as possible about the accomplishments and failures of each.

The Leaf is an excellent car. But it's a mediocre EV. Most of it's advantages over other cars in it's class are inherent to the EV powertrain, not a specific attribute of the rest of the car. Many many compromises were made to make it easier for Nissan to use existing components from their outsourced manufacturers and to manufacture the car on existing lines. Additional compromises were made to make the car more accessible to ICE drivers.
The two reasons I recommend the Leaf are price and the availability of ChaDeMo rapids in Ireland.

The i3 was originally designed as a technology demonstrator that just happened to be an extended range EV. Almost every piece of hardware in it is either custom or the very latest low volume initial production run of whatever piece of tech bosch or continental wanted to demo. Bits and pieces of this OEM tech I'm only now seeing arrive in ICE vehicles. The new 2016 7 series was the first ICE with bosch's assisted driving sensor suite that was on the i3 in 2013. The welding techniques BMW developed between the CFRP frame and aluminium body parts just started being offered to my employer by the company who makes our carbon fiber parts for us. Every day I find a new example of clever engineering in the car. It's certainly not perfect, but it's unique and serious engineering went into it.

There are three reasons I'm considering going Tesla next year:
1. With my usage more range would be very helpful.
2. I want a physically larger vehicle to carry large equipment and parts.
3. the software... it's really important in an EV and BMW sucks at it (so does Nissan BTW).

Deleted User wrote: »

According to the EPA about 128 Kms for the I3 Battery only.

They gave the Leaf 30 Kwh 172 kms and the 24 Kwh 135 kms.

It's worth noting that the EPA rating only includes testing the i3 entirely in Comfort mode. In Eco Pro on the EPA cycle the 22kWh i3 exceeded the 24kWh Leafs range by a touch under 10km.
The i3 is on average 20% more efficient than the Leaf. The i3 has better regen than the Leaf (particularly because it encourages far more use of regen by the driver) but the Leaf has better aerodynamics.
The i3 has substantially longer range in city driving but slightly lower than the Leaf on the motorway. The EPA combined cycle is a mix of both.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

i3 development started 5 years before the Leaf and it came on the market the same time as the mk1.5 Leaf. In fact Nissan used a cheaper battery chemistry where BMW actually put the engineering resources in to use a more advanced battery chemistry in a higher output pack built into a car using production methods and materials both new to the auto industry and in some cases new to material science as a whole. Even down to the things like adhesives BMW's suppliers really pushed the envelope.

Again I own a Leaf.. I own an i3... I'm probably moving to a Tesla next year. I want to be as honest as possible about the accomplishments and failures of each.

The Leaf is an excellent car. But it's a mediocre EV. Most of it's advantages over other cars in it's class are inherent to the EV powertrain, not a specific attribute of the rest of the car. Many many compromises were made to make it easier for Nissan to use existing components from their outsourced manufacturers and to manufacture the car on existing lines. Additional compromises were made to make the car more accessible to ICE drivers.
The two reasons I recommend the Leaf are price and the availability of ChaDeMo rapids in Ireland.

The i3 was originally designed as a technology demonstrator that just happened to be an extended range EV. Almost every piece of hardware in it is either custom or the very latest low volume initial production run of whatever piece of tech bosch or continental wanted to demo. Bits and pieces of this OEM tech I'm only now seeing arrive in ICE vehicles. The new 2016 7 series was the first ICE with bosch's assisted driving sensor suite that was on the i3 in 2013. The welding techniques BMW developed between the CFRP frame and aluminium body parts just started being offered to my employer by the company who makes our carbon fiber parts for us. Every day I find a new example of clever engineering in the car. It's certainly not perfect, but it's unique and serious engineering went into it.

There are three reasons I'm considering going Tesla next year:
1. With my usage more range would be very helpful.
2. I want a physically larger vehicle to carry large equipment and parts.
3. the software... it's really important in an EV and BMW sucks at it (so does Nissan BTW).



It's worth noting that the EPA rating only includes testing the i3 entirely in Comfort mode. In Eco Pro on the EPA cycle the 22kWh i3 exceeded the 24kWh Leafs range by a touch under 10km.
The i3 is on average 20% more efficient than the Leaf. The i3 has better regen than the Leaf (particularly because it encourages far more use of regen by the driver) but the Leaf has better aerodynamics.
The i3 is substantially longer range in city driving but slightly low than the Leaf on the motorway. The EPA combined cycle is a mix of both.

But the point about the I3 whatever the differences is that it's at a price point most people are not willing to pay and that in itself makes the Leaf the far better EV imo. It's not built to BMW quality standards but it's not competing with it either, the Leaf after all is a Nissan and not a premium model.

It may be more efficient and it might drive a slight bit more in city all nobody really cares about considering the price difference. Most city drivers don't need more than 20-30 kms a day, the average Irish distance being 16 Kms.

The 30 Kw regen in the leaf is actually plenty and regen doesn't really add much unless you are in stop start driving a lot or driving down mountains. If you're in city then you don't need 50+ Kw of regen . Regen for my commute is worthless but it does save the brake pads and disks after 22,000 Kms there's no noticeable wear on the brakes or disks. Regen in the city is of no useful benefit to range because you won't be driving the distance to make it worth while but it's good to be as efficient as possible to save as much Kwh as possible and the Leaf's 30 Kw regen is plenty. For the majority of times I can slow down using all the 30 Kw regen only.

The leaf does what it's intended to pretty well.

having said that I know I would like the I3 more but it's too small and the Leaf is getting too small considering a buggy and soon to be pram will be a tight fit, then add 2 child seats and your passenger space is gone. But it's plenty for commuting.

I had a look at the X-trail and it's a nice car with a lot more room and better interior quality than the Leaf, pity they don't make an EV version before 2020.

PCP on the I3 was a lot more too than the Leaf which I wasn't willing to pay for such a small car and for commuting.

robnet77

Deleted User wrote: »

But the point about the I3 whatever the differences is that it's at a price point most people are not willing to pay and that in itself makes the Leaf the far better EV imo
....
PCP on the I3 was a lot more too than the Leaf which I wasn't willing to pay for such a small car and for commuting.

about the PCP, I'll be visiting the BMW dealer this Saturday, but in their website they mention an offer which seems similar to the one I received for a Leaf...

BMW i3 (34.000€ - basic model I would guess, not sure which extras I would get)
Deposit 6.800€
35 Monthly Payments of 399€
Optional Final Payment 15.700€


Leaf's offer I received:
Leaf SV (26.000€ including 6KW charger - not sure if the extras it has over the basic XE model are included in the BMW i3)
Deposit 4.000€
36 Monthly Payments of 435€
Optional Final Payment 10.100€

Now, using a standard online calculator, let me convert the Leaf's offer to the same terms as the i3 (changing deposit amount and number of installments):
Deposit 6.800€
35 Monthly Payments of 355€
Optional Final Payment 10.100€

... so we have same deposit for both, same amount of installments, the difference being 355€ monthly to drive a Leaf and 399€ monthly to drive an i3.
GFMV is different of course, but so is the value of the car you are buying.
The difference in the interest rate (3.9% BMW and 7.9% Nissan) is worth about 2.500€ over three years.

BoatMad

yes the nissan PCP is a poor offering, partly because I think they are financing the Nissan scrappage option

Maybe it depends on the mileage but Joe Duffy quoted me something like 600 Pm with 5K and 20K Kms per year, don't know what the GFMV was. I pay 455 Pm on the leaf with 25K Kms per year.

But either way it's too small and the CCS turned me off at that time.