Cyclists in the bus lane on the Chapelizod Bypass

Carawaystick

Has anyone any data on the delays caused by busses being unable to overtake slower cyclists on the Chapelizod bypass, due to stopped cars in the centre lane?

Has anyone any data on the delays to busses caused by vegetation blocking the buslane?

Has anyone any data on the bus journey times from Palmerstown to the 4courts or from the Corpo to Palmerstown?
What percentage reduction in journey time would result, if busses could pass cyclists on the chapelizod bypass ?

Seaswimmer

07Lapierre wrote: »

That's a good Idea. The problem is though, even if every bus in the city was operating at full capacity every day, there still aren't enough buses to cater for everyone. that's why so many people drive and cycle every day.

For once I agree with the AA when they say penalising people who drive into the city is pointless until there is a viable public transport alternative.

BTW..According to the news this morning, Dublin bus drivers might be going on strike! Geez! :mad:

Oops sorry..its the train drivers, not bus drivers.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0909/726630-rail-unions-talks/

I wonder what the divide is between people using Dublin Bus and others using buses from further afield. I would imagine that if a substantial number were coming from outside the Dublin Bus area then private operators would be quick to take up the slack but all hypothetical..I fully accept that certainly Dublin Bus is at capacity during peak but not so sure about other coach operators..

07Lapierre

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I wonder what the divide is between people using Dublin Bus and others using buses from further afield. I would imagine that if a substantial number were coming from outside the Dublin Bus area then private operators would be quick to take up the slack but all hypothetical..I fully accept that certainly Dublin Bus is at capacity during peak but not so sure about other coach operators..

Can private bus operators use bus lanes?

Seaswimmer

07Lapierre wrote: »

Can private bus operators use bus lanes?

definitely...

seamus

kidneyfan wrote: »

But they have a finite number of buses and drivers.

There are ways and means of calculating/scheduling this so you can have both flexible schedules and a minimum number of buses and drivers sitting around doing nothing.

Carawaystick

07Lapierre wrote: »

That's a good Idea. The problem is though, even if every bus in the city was operating at full capacity every day, there still aren't enough buses to cater for everyone. that's why so many people drive and cycle every day.

Not just that but there's no sane PT service for many routes
It's 80 mins from Ongar to Liffey Valley by PT

It's 90 mins from Adamstown to Tallaght

Its 2 hours from Bray to Tallaght

It takes me less time to cycle 32 km to work than Public transport.... @ a not earth shattering 25kmh

Qualitymark

But one bus takes as many people as 60 single-driver cars. If there were fewer cars clogging up the roads we could have more buses. (Though we also need to amend the bus routes and fare structures to serve more places better - and a city centre subway cross-and-circle route or shamrock route would be brilliant.)

cdebru

07Lapierre wrote: »

That's a good Idea. The problem is though, even if every bus in the city was operating at full capacity every day, there still aren't enough buses to cater for everyone. that's why so many people drive and cycle every day.

For once I agree with the AA when they say penalising people who drive into the city is pointless until there is a viable public transport alternative.

BTW..According to the news this morning, Dublin bus drivers might be going on strike! Geez! :mad:

Oops sorry..its the train drivers, not bus drivers.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0909/726630-rail-unions-talks/

Chicken and egg you can't have a viable public transport alternative until you remove the cars that are clogging up the roads making the public transport unreliable, it is an argument put forward by the likes of the AA as an excuse do to nothing and allow cars to clog the city streets.

cdebru

seamus wrote: »

Chicken-and-egg, carrot-and-stick, etc.
One of the interesting things about traffic management is how capacity management for private -v- public infrastructure are the exact.

That is, when you expand the infrastructure for private vehicles, demand increases to fill the additional supply.

But with public vehicles, you have to increase the demand before the supply can increase. If you increase supply without adequate demand, you end up massively subsidising under-used services.

But you are right in that in many cases, the demand for public service exists, but the supply isn't following up. Many bus routes in the morning are completely full before the bus has even gone 1km down the road. People living at that part of the route will likely decide that the hour's drive into work is preferable to spending 20 minutes watching jammed busses go by, before having to cram onto a bus yourself and spend 40 minutes getting into the city.

The introduction of RTI should be giving DB far more leeway to introduce flexible bus schedules where they just run busses at 3 minute intervals (or less) between 8am and 9am during term times or other busy periods.

In fact, it should allow them to do really targetted and efficient scheduling, so that if they notice that Thursdays in September are 10% busier than Mondays in January, then they can schedule more busses for those days.
The problem with a fixed schedule like they have now is that it puts both a minimum and a maximum on the number of bussses you can run. Instead the schedule should outline the minimum number of busses that will run, and then use smart scheduling and proper analysis to add additional buses to routes and times whenever they're needed.

But you need 10% more buses and drivers to do that and not many people looking for a job that just exists for 4 or 5 Thursdays every September.

kidneyfan

seamus wrote: »

There are ways and means of calculating/scheduling this so you can have both flexible schedules and a minimum number of buses and drivers sitting around doing nothing.

But you can't have bus drivers on zero hours contracts. It is certainly at the top end of semi skilled (personally I would call it 'skilled') and it needs a responsible attitude.

Or do you mean maximise the utility of the resources available so that
Ballymun busiest on Monday morning = more buses to Ballymun
Dalkey busier in summer = more buses to Dalkey

07Lapierre

cdebru wrote: »

Chicken and egg you can't have a viable public transport alternative until you remove the cars that are clogging up the roads making the public transport unreliable, it is an argument put forward by the likes of the AA as an excuse do to nothing and allow cars to clog the city streets.

Good Point...

Danjamin1

kidneyfan wrote: »

Folks it is time to ban cyclists from the Chapelizod bypass. I can't count the number of times I have seen a bus driving BEHIND a cyclist up the hill there. Does Mr I don't pay road tax EVER get out of the Buses way?

NOT on YOUR NELLY!

Time to BAN cyclists from the bypass and make them go through Chapelizod.

You know what we really need to ban?

All the bloody geniuses that start threads about banning cyclists and mentioning "road" tax.

Do some research on the topic before you share your ingenious revelation, it's been done to death

Qualitymark

kidneyfan wrote: »

But you can't have bus drivers on zero hours contracts. It is certainly at the top end of semi skilled (personally I would call it 'skilled') and it needs a responsible attitude.

It's certainly skilled. I couldn't do it! A bus driver needs to be an expert driver capable of manoeuvring a large vehicle in difficult traffic, tireless and calm, and worthy of being in charge of the lives of 60 people. Not to mention qualities of tact and diplomacy to sort out things like dope smokers in the upper saloon and people with prams and wheelchairs needing to use the small space provided for them. And s/he has to be able to help baffled tourists, deal with the different tickets and cards and fare levels - all on top of driving a huge machine with enormous responsibility.

Spanish Eyes

Dublin Bus Drivers are the salt of the earth. How they keep their cool sometimes amazes me. Kudos.

I cannot interract with either a LUAS or a DART driver so cannot comment. But they don't have to deal with passengers either.

Qualitymark

Danjamin1 wrote: »

All the bloody geniuses that start threads about banning cyclists and mentioning "road" tax.

Every now and then there's a plan to collapse road tax and insurance into one fee, and let the insurance companies collect it. I don't know why it's never been done. And the NCT fee too - if the three were taken together, no one would avoid the NCT/VRT because they'd have already paid for it.

MadDog76

tabbey wrote: »

I also pay tax on two cars. I occasionally use my bike, which is friendly to the environment and to the freeflow of traffic. I would cycle more if the laws were respected by other road users.
The problem with buses being held up on the Chapelizod bypass as elsewhere, is that motorists, including truck drivers, do not allow buses to overtake the cyclists.
The solution is to give buses priority, and give the bus right of way to overtake, once the bus has indicated for a couple of seconds, and it is safe to allow the bus move into the middle lane. The bus could then overtake without delaying the other traffic. It is really a matter of civilised behaviour being given statutory recognition.
The same right of priority should be given to buses pulling out from bus stops.

Maybe the bus should overtake the cyclist the same way cyclists overtake buses, ie. mount the path and dodge the pedestrians?

beauf

MadDog76 wrote: »

Maybe the bus should overtake the cyclist the same way cyclists overtake buses, ie. mount the path and dodge the pedestrians?

Can't win can they. Don't want the cyclist on the road, don't want them off the road.

Muahahaha

cdebru wrote: »

Explains a lot actually, if he travelled on the bus he would know that cyclists aren't really delaying the bus, in fact most cycling would have a higher average speed along the N4 than most buses, the same cyclist that the bus is behind overtook the bus while it sat in traffic from liffey valley to Palmerston cross, and will overtake the bus again while it sits in traffic at islandbridge and that will be the last time anyone on the bus will see that cyclist because the cyclist will be down the Quays and into town well before the bus.
Like I said the real delay for buses is not cyclists its private cars, particularly where dedicated lanes end.

Average Dublin Bus speeds across the network are 16.6kph. A cyclist of average fitness can easily maintain 22-25kph. It's a sizeable difference which means that anyone living inside the m50 can conceivably beat their bus route into town. I know when I cycle my own 10km route it is 7-8 minutes quicker than if I took the bus. Which is pretty remarkable but also shows how slow buses are travelling, mainly due to blockages caused by traffic.

beauf

On my old 14km commute to work, it was 35~40 mins cycle, bus 60~80 mins either way. Though it took me 45~60 mins to cycle home. (a bit more uphill). The bus took a longer circular more deary route though. It had a good few sections with no bus lanes (bottlenecks) to get through.

If you are on a long stretch with the same bus, you find its a bit like leapfrog, the bus constantly stopping at bus stops or caught by cars, or other buses. You pass the bus, but it passes you, on the longest sections.

It will depend entirely on the route, and how many stops and how much is clear bus lanes. The N4 is one of the more direct, bottleneck free routes for a bus I would assume.

Tarabuses

Muahahaha wrote: »

Average Dublin Bus speeds across the network are 16.6kph. A cyclist of average fitness can easily maintain 22-25kph. It's a sizeable difference which means that anyone living inside the m50 can conceivably beat their bus route into town. I know when I cycle my own 10km route it is 7-8 minutes quicker than if I took the bus. Which is pretty remarkable but also shows how slow buses are travelling, mainly due to blockages caused by traffic.

Not to mention stopping at bus stops and collecting fares, of course.

Muahahaha

Tarabuses wrote: »

Not to mention stopping at bus stops and collecting fares, of course.

For sure, a combination of moving to cashless payments to reduce dwell times coupled with widening distances between some stops would help DB increase their average speeds. Cashless payments are achievable in the short term, moving bus stops probably less so due to local politics.

But any measures have to be in combination with proper policing of the bus lanes to ensure they are free flowing. As a cyclist in the bus lane your progress can often be stunted by delivery drivers/clampers/taxis/Securicor vans, etc, stopping where they please. Its frustrating but not that difficult to deal with when on a bicycle. But if you're driving a double decker bus I would say it is infuriating to have to come to a complete halt in a bus lane because some inconsiderate up ahead put his own needs above those of 90 odd passengers.

Carawaystick

The bus lane approaching Collins avenue Southbound from the Swords road in Dublin is full of cars every rush hour morning all the way to the Shantalla bridge. There is no will to police this.

Seaswimmer

Carawaystick wrote: »

The bus lane approaching Collins avenue Southbound from the Swords road in Dublin is full of cars every rush hour morning all the way to the Shantalla bridge. There is no will to police this.

And pretty much every evening too.

I really admire the motorists who stay in the correct lane and go up to the point where they are legally allowed to enter the bus lane and then sit there and indicate..

Its happening a lot more recently.

beauf

Carawaystick wrote: »

The bus lane approaching Collins avenue Southbound from the Swords road in Dublin is full of cars every rush hour morning all the way to the Shantalla bridge. There is no will to police this.

So the cyclists are holding the cars up in the bus lane.

I think they are tired of being framed.

Bray Head

I am a commuter cyclist. I am fast not the fastest on the road. I would manage about 27kph on straight, dry road. As such I generally overtake buses (at one of their many, prolonged stops) rather than the other way round.

However there are many cyclists who are incredibly slow and who manage to hold up what must be the slowest-moving fleet in Europe. This really annoys me. It would take maximum 15 seconds to pull in while speeding up the journey of up to 80 others by the same amount of time.


As an aside there are massive improvements to bus transport in Dublin if whoever is in charge (NTA or DB) got rid of 30% to 50% of bus stops, abolished pay-the-driver and started using the middle doors. We all know this. But it could also improve cyclist safety as it would mean less pulling out into traffic to get around stationary buses.

Qualitymark

Bray Head wrote: »

As an aside there are massive improvements to bus transport in Dublin if whoever is in charge (NTA or DB) got rid of 30% to 50% of bus stops.

Dream on, kid. Some people can't walk a long way to the next bus stop.

Carawaystick

Bray Head wrote: »

However there are many cyclists who are incredibly slow and who manage to hold up what must be the slowest-moving fleet in Europe. This really annoys me. It would take maximum 15 seconds to pull in while speeding up the journey of up to 80 others by the same amount of time.

Of course the stopped cars could let the bus overtake either, seeing as the buslanes are too narrow in parts for busses to travel along without bikes in them as it is....

Carawaystick

One reason cyclists might use the bus & bicycle lane on the Chapelizod Bypass, is that the newly built cycle lane connecting Palmerston to Chapelizod is really bad.

This is bi directional cycle and pedestrian route.

alcaline

Carawaystick wrote: »

One reason cyclists might use the bus & bicycle lane on the Chapelizod Bypass, is that the newly built cycle lane connecting Palmerston to Chapelizod is really bad.

This is [irishcycle.com/2015/10/04/9435/"]bi directional cycle and pedestrian route[/URL].

Whats wrong with it?
Looks clean and free of pot holes.

LeinsterDub

alcaline wrote: »

Whats wrong with it?
Looks clean and free of pot holes.

It's too narrow and it's shared with pedestrians which means a lot of going around people and at a slower pace