Guards asking for list of members of gun club.

223vmax

There has been a few gun clubs approached by the guards in my local area asking the committee for a list of members names/addresses etc. Is it legal for the clubs to supply this information or would it be against the data protection act?

Cass

If you claimed to be a member of a club in order to obtain your firearms certificate then An Gardaí can check to see if you are a member of said club. However, and i stand to be corrected, a gun club does not have the same legal responsibilities as a range in that they must notify An Gardaí of any members that leave or let their membership lapse.

As for asking for all members names, details, etc with no specific intent (IOW just a fact finding mission) well that is above my ability to answer as the laws on Data protection are complex. Plus when applying for a firearm you sign away certain rights.

tomtucker81

Id say if they asked about specific people, regarding their licences then thats ok.

For example, the local fo is reviewing licences in the district. Rings the local gun glub, does joe bloggs still have membership in your club? (As that's where he gets his land permission from)

On the other hand, if they rang and asked for all members names and addresses, then you'd have to ask why? And was it from the local fo or super?

meathstevie

Gardai, especially rural competent ones like to know their local gun owners and club members. There's nothing untoward about that. It weeds out chancers claiming to be in a club and stating that as good reason and it also gives Gardai better local knowledge.

In my opinion it's reasonable for a club to provide that information. It's not like you're telling them anything they didn't already know anyway and Gardai are subject to data protection legislation anyway.

Grizzly 45

Good rule of thumb is with handling data protected info... WHO wants it? WHAT do they want it for? WHY do they want it?WHAT will they do with it? ARE they allowed to have it? As a holder of this info you can ask these questions and are actually obliged to do so under the DPA just to cover yourself too.

So dont be afraid to ask the AGS these questions as a secetary.You are doing it by the book and CYA. if ligit they will be only too happy to respond.

Big Bangstick

It seems to be going on quite a few places lately. Reading the latest edition of "Gameshot" (page 49) NARGC seem to have been pushing the authorities to tighten up on the lads who pay a years membership & get a three year licence.

Cass

meathstevie wrote: »

Gardai, especially rural competent ones like to know their local gun owners and club members. There's nothing untoward about that. It weeds out chancers claiming to be in a club and stating that as good reason and it also gives Gardai better local knowledge.

In my opinion it's reasonable for a club to provide that information. It's not like you're telling them anything they didn't already know anyway and Gardai are subject to data protection legislation anyway.

I'd agree with this.

I wouldn't object to this for the usual "what business is it of yours" reason. In our area we have a good working relationship with An Gardai and when we give alittle we get a little. My only "concern" would be the reasons as pointed out above by Grizzly45. There is a certain amount of CYA involved when dealing with people's personal info.

Sparks

On the other hand, if they rang and asked for all members names and addresses, then you'd have to ask why?

Eh, no, you don't. They're legally allowed to ask for it.
From SI 308/2009 (the Firearms (Authorisation of Rifle Or Pistol Clubs) Regulations 2009):

(4) A club shall maintain a register which shall include—

(a) the name, address, date of birth and membership card number of each member,
(b) the details of every firearm certificate held by each member,
(c) the name, address, date of birth and firearm certificate number of each person using a firearm at an event organised by the club,
(d) an attendance record in relation to each member,
(e) the name of each member who holds a firearm certificate and who has not participated in any of the shooting functions organised by the club in the preceding 6 months.

(5) All records maintained by a club pursuant to these regulations shall be—

(a) retained by the club for a period of at least 6 years, and
(b) made available for inspection by a member of the Garda Síochána upon request by that member.

Renewals are taking place of people's certs, so checking club records is not only completely legal, it's what they are supposed to do.

Cass

Does that apply only to rifle or pistol clubs/ranges. IOW those that have to pay the license fee and abide by range standards as set out in SI 622/2011?

I know ranges must abide by the above:

Cass wrote: »

However, and i stand to be corrected, a gun club does not have the same legal responsibilities as a range in that they must notify An Gardaí of any members that leave or let their membership lapse.

, but i did not think it applied to game clubs as they don't have the same standards and don't have to abide by SI 622/2011.

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

Does that apply only to rifle or pistol clubs/ranges. IOW those that have to pay the license fee and abide by range standards as set out in SI 622/2011?

You know, I'm not 100% certain if it would stand up in a court if you went after it hard enough? So far as I know, it's never been tested in court but was intended to cover NARGC clubs as well, hence the split between the clubs SI and the ranges SI (the reasoning being that being a member of an NARGC gun club was good enough for a licence application). But the wording of it has some wiggle room.

It's just that... you know how there are (very very rare) bits in the law that actually make a bit of sense? This is one of those very rare bits. It's a cross-check of sorts on applications that manages to not be a total pain in the fundament; it allows clubs who have a genuine concern about someone to bring that to the AGS's attention and deal with it appropriately, and it doesn't actually affect your data privacy because you already gave all that information to the AGS in your FCA1 anyway.

So you might be able to get out of it... but really, you shouldn't try to do that, it actually does more good than harm.

Cass

As said above i'd have no problem co-operating with An Gardaí on this matter. So it's not an issue of being awkward.

However the issue between rifle/pistol clubs and game clubs (one requiring authroisation/license, etc and not the other), and the rules they must abide by as set out in SI 308/2009 (even SI 622/2011) would appear to be one having to as a matter of law and other as a matter of policy.

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

However the issue between rifle/pistol clubs and game clubs (one requiring authroisation/license, etc and not the other), and the rules they must abide by as set out in SI 308/2009 (even SI 622/2011) would appear to be one having to as a matter of law and other as a matter of policy.

True; but on the other hand if you took a data protection case against the AGS for asking for that data, I suspect they'd have genuinely strong arguments in their favour; like it being them doing due diligence in verifying information on your FCA1 which would be bolstered by it being an offence to give false info on the FCA1. So I'm not sure it'd be policy even if the court ruled SI 308 didn't apply, it just wouldn't have it's own explicit section in an Act or SI (but we've seen that pattern before in firearms law here )

edit: I kindof think it's academic though; the AGS have both good legal and practical reasons for asking; the clubs have good reasons for responding; and unless someone's doing something they shouldn't, no new information is revealed in the process. There are much bigger problems with the law than this

Cass

I know, and as i said i'm not arguing this to find some way to avoid giving the info. It is just an academic issue as to whether there is legal precedent for them to ask for it or if it's just a policy enacted by the NARGC and other game clubs.

J.R.

Big Bangstick wrote: »

It seems to be going on quite a few places lately. Reading the latest edition of "Gameshot" (page 49) NARGC seem to have been pushing the authorities to tighten up on the lads who pay a years membership & get a three year licence.

NARGC advice to Gun Clubs

LAPSED MEMBERS – COURSE OF ACTION

http://nargc.ie/membership-structure/

Cass

That seems to be policy rather than law. While they cite the Commissioner's guidelines that is only an interpretation of the law and how it applies. Hence the term "advice" and "may result in revocation of firearms license".

Ranges MUST do this. It's a legal requirement. It's also the reason all ranges have a join up fee. To prevent people joining for a low cost and avoiding the "good reason" part of applying for a license.

On a personal note i support such checks. If someone has to "pull a fast one" by doing this to get a license then do they really need a gun? IOW if you're reason was good enough you would have what you need to apply for a gun without having to join a range or club.

cookimonster

This topic was highlighted by the committee at our last AGM , the local guards where only interested in lapsed membership and individuals who did not take active part in the club.
As it has been said above many gun club members site thier membership of a game club as valid reason for licensing so as I see it the club body is vouching for the individual and therefore is responsible in the validation process

Mississippi.

I know my local club have had to submit a list of members for a good few years now and the f. o. Even goes to the local dealers to talk to them regularly also. When 17 hmr and 223 so became popular he wanted to see the rounds.
Got no membership card this year yet though, paid in July

garrettod

Hi,

Here's a question....

A person applies for a licence, with permission over two privately owned lands and is also a member of a club. Gets a licence with no specific conditions other than the standard one about the amount of rounds to be held at any given time. Obviously, general conditions apply.

Over the course of time, they change clubs, get new permissions, possibly don't use one or perhaps even both of the original permissions etc.

As the licence has not been issued subject to condition that they are restricted to shooting over the originally named lands or at the original club, why do some people think the person should have to notify the Gardai of the change in circumstances ?

Sparks

why do some people think the person should have to notify the Gardai of the change in circumstances ?

Because there's no such thing as a licence with no specific conditions. You're thinking of one that has no additional specific conditions over those in the Act. Licences are granted on the basis of the information in your FCA1 - if that information changes and you don't notify AGS about it, your licence is technically null and void and you're committing a specific offence under the Act.

I can't quite see Joe Public being dragged to court because he was a week late with an FCA2, but strictly speaking, it is the law - and if it happened over a course of years like in your hypothetical, he renewed his licence once or twice and didn't update the details. At that point, I could see a Garda eyebrow being raised alright and a phone call being made to ask what Joe was up to...

223vmax

Had a meeting with the guard in question. They have asked us not only to submit names, address, phone numbers but also to do this annually once renewals are completed. They have asked when our next meeting is and they will attend and talk to members. He had a stack of papers in front of him and he said he's going through all renewals first, then existing firearms license holders and finding out if license was granted on basis of being member of the club. Anyone with existing license who obtained it on grounds of being a member but who are not current members will get a knock on the door. Stopped short of saying they would seize firearms but he meant business.

Cass

Completely reasonable imo. If your members are genuine and not using the club just to get a license they ordinarily wouldn't get then i think it's perfectly justified. I mean ranges have to do this each year.

223vmax

Cass wrote: »

Completely reasonable imo. If your members are genuine and not using the club just to get a license they ordinarily wouldn't get then i think it's perfectly justified. I mean ranges have to do this each year.

Totally agree. Had a few lads over the last years that joined the club for 1 year and we never saw them after that.

MrTom1

i think its a good idea, in our club lads join the first year then dont until their gun renewal, this year we have told our local super who hasnt joined.

Snakezilla

I recently resigned as Chairman of the local club (thank god :rolleyes:) but I had been asked by potential members applying for licenses for a cover letter that if the license is granted they will be accepted to the club and that said individual has provided an application letter to join. On a phone call with a Guard on one occasion who was obviously just checking to make sure the letter had not been written by any joe soap. I was informed that it was apparently my "duty" to report the names of people who had left the club or not renewed membership to the local station.
I never said anything just fair enough basically and thought no more of it until at the NARGC Regional meeting it was brought up and we were told that we were obliged to give the names if approached but under no circumstances was it anyones job to approach the gardai with the information.

Sparks

but under no circumstances was it anyones job to approach the gardai with the information.

Hm.
Not so sure I'd agree with that enough to actually take the risk with my own bottom in mountjoy. I mean, maybe you'll be fine, or maybe you'll run into a bored and annoyed member of AGS who didn't agree with the NARGC line, and if that happened I don't think it'll be the NARGC rep who goes to court.

foxin

Our club was recently asked for this also and I think its a great idea. Just last tuesday I was in buying rounds in the local gun store where I was down the back checking out there range. Anyway 2 lads walked in and asked the young lad on the till for a slab of 6s and said they were for the members of a local gun club (never showed id or firearms lisence but were aparently regulars to the shop). Being a club member for the past 15 years and knowing all other 32 members I tackled them and the staff that were handling the sale in the the laws of ammunition sales.
After a few minutes of conversation they were given there 250 shells and I was told "sure their regulars"

These lads were buying cartridges and putting them down to my club that they never had an affiliation with ever. And im guessing on their gun forms they say there members also. So im glad the gards are showing an interest

deni20000

223vmax wrote: »

There has been a few gun clubs approached by the guards in my local area asking the committee for a list of members names/addresses etc. Is it legal for the clubs to supply this information or would it be against the data protection act?

You should be happy the Guards are doing their job - our club has been trying to get them to do this for years with very limited success.

deni20000

Snakezilla wrote: »

I recently resigned as Chairman of the local club (thank god :rolleyes:) but I had been asked by potential members applying for licenses for a cover letter that if the license is granted they will be accepted to the club and that said individual has provided an application letter to join. On a phone call with a Guard on one occasion who was obviously just checking to make sure the letter had not been written by any joe soap. I was informed that it was apparently my "duty" to report the names of people who had left the club or not renewed membership to the local station.
I never said anything just fair enough basically and thought no more of it until at the NARGC Regional meeting it was brought up and we were told that we were obliged to give the names if approached but under no circumstances was it anyones job to approach the gardai with the information.

I totally disagree - our county branch of the NARGC are quite rightly saying the complete opposite. Why on earth would you NOT tell the guards?

223vmax

deni20000 wrote: »

You should be happy the Guards are doing their job - our club has been trying to get them to do this for years with very limited success.

Yes I am happy they're taking an interest, however I do not want one of our fickle members threatening me with legal actions re:Data protection. Its my job to check out legality of this prior to giving information!

deerhunter1

223vmax wrote: »

There has been a few gun clubs approached by the guards in my local area asking the committee for a list of members names/addresses etc. Is it legal for the clubs to supply this information or would it be against the data protection act?

On renewal,or application,you are required to produce your membership,ie a photocopy of your NARGC etc