Advice Needed re: retrospective planning

helimachoptor

Hi guys, looking for a bit of advice.

In the process of buying a house (was due to draw down this week)
however it has come to light that the cert of exemption for the utility room (behind garage but at side of house) states that while the utility room (15 sq meters) doesn't comply with planning, it is in situ about 15 years so from a council planning perspective we arent going to be asked to tear it down

The bank are refusing to provide funds

the solicitor have given us a few options the most realistic of which is below

- Engage architect and building engineer to advise on how to bring the utility room up to code. Engage with bank and give commitment that with 6 months of release of funds we will provide cert of compliance

Agree with EA that costs will be deducted from house price (this conversation has happened and EA seems amenable however decision remains with vendor)

What is in the utility room at the moment is an oil boiler (being removed anyway) and toilet, we were going to use to for the washing machine and drier and storage. It has a door to access the garden.

Could anyone ball park the costs?


I've engaged an architect and the surveyor we used so just waiting on them to come back aswell

Strolling Bones

Get the seller to sort this out.
Very foolish for you to do so.
You may sort his problem out only for him to gazump you.

Strolling Bones

helimachoptor wrote: »

the cert of exemption for the utility room (behind garage but at side of house) states that while the utility room (15 sq meters) doesn't comply with planning, it is in situ about 15 years so from a council planning perspective we arent going to be asked to tear it down

The bank are refusing to provide funds

All self builders / extenders / improvers take note.

Lenders.

The de facto enforcers of building standards in Ireland.

The true cost of exempted development and / or ignoring compliance issues is failure to sell.

helimachoptor

Strolling Bones wrote: »

Get the seller to sort this out.
Very foolish for you to do so.
You may sort his problem out only for him to gazump you.

We would only be sorting if the sale is proceeding and they deduct costs from the sale price.

Buy price - Cost of work/planning = new buy price

Strolling Bones

helimachoptor wrote: »

We would only be sorting if the sale is proceeding and they deduct costs from the sale price.

Buy price - Cost of work/planning = new buy price

1. Proceed as agreed.
2. You fund the red tape - up front.
3. Council issues Decision to Grant
4. Vendor has "change of heart" . Pulls out of sale.
5. Council issues Grant.
6. After 6 months vendor has another change of heart and places clean property on the market again.
7. You may or may not get refund of expenditure from item 2 above.

Gumbo

helimachoptor wrote: »

We would only be sorting if the sale is proceeding and they deduct costs from the sale price.

Buy price - Cost of work/planning = new buy price

A retention application could cost as little as €1000. But it has to go through that statutory process of planning, so newspaper notice, site notice and a 2 month duration without a decision.

Where is the house located?

Strolling Bones

Or ...


1. Proceed as agreed.
2. You fund the red tape - up front.
3. Council issues Decision to Grant - with conditions you do not like i.e. financial contribution.
4. Vendor says tough - you pay it.
5. Council issues Grant.
6. You pull out of sale.
7. You may or may not get refund of expenditure from item 2 above.

Strolling Bones

Or ...


1. Proceed as agreed.
2. You fund the red tape - up front.
3. Council refuses premision
4. Vendor pulls out of sale crying poor mouth.
5. You may or may not get refund of expenditure from item 2 above.

helimachoptor

Strolling Bones wrote: »

1. Proceed as agreed.
2. You fund the red tape - up front.
3. Council issues Decision to Grant
4. Vendor has "change of heart" . Pulls out of sale.
5. Council issues Grant.
6. After 6 months vendor has another change of heart and places clean property on the market again.
7. You may or may not get refund of expenditure from item 2 above.

We wont get into the above position, we have signed but have a condition that we can exit if the bank dont allow us to draw down based on something beyond our control which this is.

We will have to re-sign but we will re-sign at a price minus the cost of the work. We wont be doing anything until we actually take possession.

helimachoptor

this is all assuming the bank are still happy to fund the purchase based on us getting permission..

antiskeptic

helimachoptor wrote: »

Hi guys, looking for a bit of advice.

In the process of buying a house (was due to draw down this week)
however it has come to light that the cert of exemption for the utility room (behind garage but at side of house) states that while the utility room (15 sq meters) doesn't comply with planning, it is in situ about 15 years so from a council planning perspective we arent going to be asked to tear it down

The bank are refusing to provide funds

the solicitor have given us a few options the most realistic of which is below

- Engage architect and building engineer to advise on how to bring the utility room up to code. Engage with bank and give commitment that with 6 months of release of funds we will provide cert of compliance

Agree with EA that costs will be deducted from house price (this conversation has happened and EA seems amenable however decision remains with vendor)

What is in the utility room at the moment is an oil boiler (being removed anyway) and toilet, we were going to use to for the washing machine and drier and storage. It has a door to access the garden.

Could anyone ball park the costs?


I've engaged an architect and the surveyor we used so just waiting on them to come back aswell

Get the seller to apply for planning retention immediately and proceed with purchase process once this is running. Delay the closing day until retention (reasonably likely?) is granted. It takes about 12 weeks I think - and your sale process is going to take nearly that (you could tee up your lender, them delaying granting of funds until that time)

Gumbo

antiskeptic wrote: »

Get the seller to apply for planning retention immediately and proceed with purchase process once this is running. Delay the closing day until retention (reasonably likely?) is granted. It takes about 12 weeks I think - and your sale process is going to take nearly that (you could tee up your lender, them delaying granting of funds until that time)

+1

If you lodged a retention application tomorrow (although unlikely due to the time required for prep of plans and particulars) , you would have a decision roughly on 28th October.

helimachoptor

sale process is done.

We signed nearly 3 weeks ago and were due to get the keys this friday, but when the solicitor went to draw down on the funds they bank said they werent happy with the cert of exemption from the architect.

also this is an executor sale so not sure if that affects if they could apply for PP as they arent the owner

Gumbo

helimachoptor wrote: »

sale process is done.

We signed nearly 3 weeks ago and were due to get the keys this friday, but when the solicitor went to draw down on the funds they bank said they werent happy with the cert of exemption from the architect.

So 2 options

Get seller to apply ASAP, and you wait for t to complete.
You buy and take the risk of applying yourself but what happens if it's refused?

mickdw

No engineer is going to guarantee that they will issue cert of compliance within 6 months as the outcome is in the hands of the planning authority.
The bank therefore won't release the funds until sorted.

helimachoptor

kceire wrote: »

So 2 options

Get seller to apply ASAP, and you wait for t to complete.
You buy and take the risk of applying yourself but what happens if it's refused?

The architect has said that while its in breach of planning the structure is there so long there's no issue and no one will come calling to take it down. it's well past the 7 year term.

I am confused by the Archs reprort (vendors Arch) on one hand it breaches planning however essentially due to the time passed its now compliant


Paraphrasing, but there are plenty of houses on the street that have the same modification some old some new so i think it would be fine, however i cant guarantee it.

For me the risk is we get X off the sale price, however the cost of the work is > X .

I've engaged with the original surveyor to see what his thoughts are around costs and if there's anything else we need to consider

helimachoptor

mickdw wrote: »

No engineer is going to guarantee that they will issue cert of compliance within 6 months as the outcome is in the hands of the planning authority.
The bank therefore won't release the funds until sorted.

Cheers, our solicitor seems confident that the bank will agree but who knows tbh

The bank are reviewing the options presented back by the solicitor so its a waiting game to see what the say

Gumbo

helimachoptor wrote: »

The architect has said that while its in breach of planning the structure is there so long there's no issue and no one will come calling to take it down. it's well past the 7 year term.

I am confused by the Archs reprort (vendors Arch) on one hand it breaches planning however essentially due to the time passed its now compliant


Paraphrasing, but there are plenty of houses on the street that have the same modification some old some new so i think it would be fine, however i cant guarantee it.

For me the risk is we get X off the sale price, however the cost of the work is > X .

I've engaged with the original surveyor to see what his thoughts are around costs and if there's anything else we need to consider

Basically after the 7 years the house is still in an unauthorised state and no future planning applications can take place on it but as the 7 year term has passed, it is in-enforceable by the panning authority to the current owners.

The bank only care about their investment so they want a clean site in case anything should happen.
The architect is correct in the wording of their certificate as it covers them also and simply stating fact.

helimachoptor

kceire wrote: »

Basically after the 7 years the house is still in an unauthorised state and no future planning applications can take place on it but as the 7 year term has passed, it is in-enforceable by the panning authority to the current owners.

The bank only care about their investment so they want a clean site in case anything should happen.
The architect is correct in the wording of their certificate as it covers them also and simply stating fact.

As the new owners potentially could they ask us to rectify it?

Strolling Bones

yes

helimachoptor

Strolling Bones wrote: »

yes

Cheers SB, i didnt realise that

JonathonS

Executors can apply for PP.
Don't forget to allow for what the Local Authority may charge as a Development Contribution, depending on size and where the house is located this could be well into 4 figures.

helimachoptor

JonathonS wrote: »

Executors can apply for PP.
Don't forget to allow for what the Local Authority may charge as a Development Contribution, depending on size and where the house is located this could be well into 4 figures.

Cheers, meeting the Arch tomorrow for he can check out the property, he'll then revert with costs for his work and a schedule for what building work (if any needs to be done) this will then go to the EA and they vendors will need to reduce the price

Angry bird

For reasons already outlined in posts above, the seller should be sorting out the planning. However if you as purchaser is going to do it, you will need their written permission included with the planning application. I would also advise to get an airtight agreement that will cover your costs plus reasonable compensation for doing their planning application for them. Also if sale to you does not go through that all costs to you plus larger compensation be paid to you as a burden on the property. Therefore I strongly advise to insist that they sort out the planning, based on Murphy's law that things go wrong even with the best of intentions.

helimachoptor

So just back from meeting the architect.

His view is the other architect is wrong.

While the room is at the side of the house its at the rear of the garage, the room also extends past the end of the house so he views the other Arch is using a technicality in the planning regs to say its wrong.

He's going to speak to our solicitor but he said he would be happy to sign it off as exempt

Strolling Bones

You must really want the place.

helimachoptor

Strolling Bones wrote: »

You must really want the place.

Yep we do, however its a house and after buying one in 2007 thats now worth half what we paid for it we are pretty clinical with this decision.

Basically 2 Archs one saying its compliant and one saying its not. Arch 2 says even though we are taking over the property there is no risk of a state enforced action i.e. demolition of the extension.

We have plans to extend in a few years, Arch 2 says when we are applying for PP for that extension also apply for retention.

Will take the advice of the solicitor and proceed from there

Drift

Hi helo,

If you want to be clinical you should make it the vendors issue to solve and be prepared to walk away if he doesn't. Anything else or any other way means you and your family are taking a greater financial risk than you should. You have already been burned once by the finances of a property - I think it would be best to do everything in your power to minimise that happening again. I know it's tough when your heart is set on a place but you are giving the vendor a good price for his property - it's not your job to fix his problems and if it's as minor an issue as people are trying to make you believe then it should be relatively straightforward for the vendor to fix at his own expense.

There's a multitude of things that could go wrong if you do it the way you are suggesting.

If the vendor does it anything that goes wrong is his problem - not yours.

helimachoptor

Drift wrote: »

Hi helo,

If you want to be clinical you should make it the vendors issue to solve and be prepared to walk away if he doesn't. Anything else or any other way means you and your family are taking a greater financial risk than you should. You have already been burned once by the finances of a property - I think it would be best to do everything in your power to minimise that happening again. I know it's tough when your heart is set on a place but you are giving the vendor a good price for his property - it's not your job to fix his problems and if it's as minor an issue as people are trying to make you believe then it should be relatively straightforward for the vendor to fix at his own expense.

There's a multitude of things that could go wrong if you do it the way you are suggesting.

If the vendor does it anything that goes wrong is his problem - not yours.

Maybe i'm missing something, but if we have a cert of exemption is that not case closed?

Drift

Have you got a "Cert of Exemption" or have you got 3 different oral or written opinions only two of which agree?

If there's any doubt at all now is the time to get the vendor to sort it out. The only people who will confirm that it is actually exempt is the Local Authority Planning Department. If you're the vendor is sure it's exempt get the vendor to supply you with a Section 5 declaration from the Council which will confirm this fact.

helimachoptor

Drift wrote: »

Have you got a "Cert of Exemption" or have you got 3 different oral or written opinions only two of which agree?

If there's any doubt at all now is the time to get the vendor to sort it out. The only people who will confirm that it is actually exempt is the Local Authority Planning Department. If you're the vendor is sure it's exempt get the vendor to supply you with a Section 5 declaration from the Council which will confirm this fact.

The Arch that visited the property today will provide a cert of exemption.

2 Archs with different views. one saying its compliant, one saying its not.


Any idea of timelines on the Section 5? The vendors solicitor is on holidays for the next 3 weeks so we can get them to do the leg work during that time, its DLR council if that makes any difference.

Strolling Bones

helimachoptor wrote: »

2 Archs with different views. one saying its compliant, one saying its not. .

Remove yourself from this and ask - what's wrong with this picture.
Imagine you are the vendor at a future date and you have to sell under this scenario.

helimachoptor

Strolling Bones wrote: »

Remove yourself from this and ask - what's wrong with this picture.
Imagine you are the vendor at a future date and you have to sell under this scenario.

Yes I agree, my ARch shouldnt be providing it, the solicitor has raised that as a concern.

He will go back to the vendors with options

1) Retention planning
2) engage additional arch to certify exemption (and the S5 now as mentioned above)

Drift

Just to be clear the architect will provide a written opinion that it is exempt.

DLR would have to respond within 4 weeks of receiving the documentation. They may ask for more information though. Also the vendor will need to get drawings prepared for submitting.

Link to DLR PDF

Angry bird

4 week turnaround on a section 5. If you're doing it, request the council to send the decision to you and the current owner (per Section 5c of the Planning act). 80 euro fee to council and minimal paperwork and drawings compared to a planning application.

helimachoptor

Thanks for the advice ill speak with the solicitor on the additional security we can look for and post once I have news

helimachoptor

folks, just an update, we have asked the vendors to apply for a section 5.

Waiting to hear back, however given their solicitor is on holidays i expect they wont do anything until he is back (current communication is being done via the EA)

Assuming the S5 is fine, we proceed. If its not then assuming they need to go and do the retention application.

Thanks for the help and advice, will post once i get updates

Gumbo

helimachoptor wrote: »

folks, just an update, we have asked the vendors to apply for a section 5.

Waiting to hear back, however given their solicitor is on holidays i expect they wont do anything until he is back (current communication is being done via the EA)

Assuming the S5 is fine, we proceed. If its not then assuming they need to go and do the retention application.

Thanks for the help and advice, will post once i get updates

Best of luck. Hope it works out.

Drift

In my opinion you made the right decision heli.

helimachoptor

Section 5 has been completed, council have signed off on the extension as exempt, bank are happy so expect to get keys next week.

Thanks for the advice folks

Drift

Great news helimachopter.

Now comes the hard part .... What colour curtains in the living room! ;-)

helimachoptor

Drift wrote: »

Great news helimachopter.

Now comes the hard part .... What colour curtains in the living room! ;-)

I have left all of that to the wife i would be happy with a bean bag and a TV.. simple pleasures!

helimachoptor

got the keys yesterday..

now the 2 month renovation begins..

helimachoptor

have the keys now 2.5 weeks made a lot of progress

- kitchen/diner wall down with RSJ in (day 2 :pac:)
- House completely bare, wallpaper stripped, carpets,floors lifted
One of my mates who was helping, when we lifted the lino in the kitchen we found the Evening Press newspaper from the day he was born.. Dec 27th 1981..:eek:

- All old plumbing removed, oil boiler removed (gas ordered)
- Back window removed and now blocked for french doors
- Garage door removed and now blocked for window

- Went with MJ for windows, 2.5 lead time which is pretty good, they will just be pinning and builder will do the rest (a lot of negative reviews on boards, but the builder uses them)

- Insulation went up on external walls yesterday

- The dreaded utility room has been stripped bare, with insulation gone up, bathroom demolished for refurb, large window here so partially blocked up for smaller window

- Floor from house down to utility/garage conversion and bathroom all at different levels, so stones laid, will be levelled next week

- Plumber laying piping etc next week

- Electrician doing a few bits next week (not a huge amount for him to do)

Builder is confident we'll be in by Nov 30th

Angry bird

Good job. Will be nice and settled for Christmas at this rate.

helimachoptor

- Painting is almost done, (probably finish monday/tuesday)
- Most of the tiling is done aswell
- New Alarm fitted
- New hotpress built (3 sq meters) this is what happens when you marry a farmers daughter :eek:
- All internal doors replaced
- MJ turned up on time with the windows/doors
- Electrics done
- Garage/utility room floor has been poured and levelled

Next week is
- Kitchen install
- bathroom stuff (shower trays * 2, bath in place already)
- Builder put in a wastewater pipe under the new garage(to connect to main sewer) floor as he was concerned about drainage in the front garden, first heavy rain and we had a flood in the front garden so it was good foresight
- Floors in week after next

We'll be moving in weekend of Dec 4th