TUI recommend acceptance of new JC

neverfinished

There are parents ringing and coming into schools every day for smaller matters than exam results. I was harassed by a parent ringing the school every half hour for a week because I confiscated her daughters mobile phone in the corridor. She spoke to the principal and year head to complain too. Other colleagues have had similar experiences - you don't give enough homework, you give too much homework, my child said you said X, you didn't let my child go to the bathroom etc. I have had parents ring to question 5 marks a child lost in a chapter test in first year. You cannot refuse to speak. We are professionals.

I don't think you understand the dynamics of a secondary school and parental involvement.

Education matters

I totally agree with never finished, a large number of teachers are engaged in both secondary and the FE sector , there are huge differences in both sectors. FE students choose a course they are interested in. They have made a choice and have a career path in mind. They understand they need to pass a certain amount of modules and if that module is proving difficult they will do their upmost to pass in order to achieve the full award. It is difficult to motivate the JC student to pass one subject of 10 that they feel is irrelevant to their lives.
Obviously one sector deals with children while the other deals with adults or almost adults. One of the reasons JC was to be altered in Quinns words was to stop the total apathy and " disengagement " of 2nd years. An internal assessment will not achieve this whether internally or externally verified. A large number of secondary teachers are involved with the SEC, ( although a lot less of late), and FE, they understand the workings of a marking scheme and the intricacies of such and are highly professional in their approach

neverfinished

katydid wrote: »

Anyone who stands at a shop counter justifying to a member of the public how they do their job is behaving extremely unprofessionally, in my opinion. Once all teachers make it quite clear that there is a process and that they are not able to or willing to discuss the matter outside the process, a line is drawn, and people won't ask. Do people pester doctors at the checkout?

I have no intention of ever standing at a counter and justifying myself to a member of the public. My point is that I should not even be approached by a parent in that way. I am certain it would most definitely happen to teachers. What would someone be expected to do in that situation?
Again, you can't compare doctor to teacher. There is a general respect for doctors amongst the public and most are held in high regard. Teachers on the other hand, are often shown very little respect. I often think it is because members of the public have gone through the ed system and all have experience of teachers, both good and bad, and somehow feel that they know exactly what our job entails. It's either that or 'June, July and August'. You cannot compare how a member of the public treats a doctor to how they treat a teacher.

katydid

Education matters wrote: »

I totally agree with never finished, a large number of teachers are engaged in both secondary and the FE sector , there are huge differences in both sectors. FE students choose a course they are interested in. They have made a choice and have a career path in mind. They understand they need to pass a certain amount of modules and if that module is proving difficult they will do their upmost to pass in order to achieve the full award. It is difficult to motivate the JC student to pass one subject of 10 that they feel is irrelevant to their lives.
Obviously one sector deals with children while the other deals with adults or almost adults. One of the reasons JC was to be altered in Quinns words was to stop the total apathy and " disengagement " of 2nd years. An internal assessment will not achieve this whether internally or externally verified. A large number of secondary teachers are involved with the SEC, ( although a lot less of late), and FE, they understand the workings of a marking scheme and the intricacies of such and are highly professional in their approach

The motivation of students is irrelevant in this. Fifteen year olds are not children, they are young adults, perfectly capable of understanding actions and consequences.

If anything, they are likely to be MORE engaged with the assessment process if it's happening on an ongoing basis, and not in a big exam hall at the end of a three year cycle. They will be advised and prepared for assessment, and, just as importantly, given feedback on the results directly by their teacher, who knows them and knows how to give them feedback in a way that they will understand and accept, and that will benefit them in future, similar assessments.

I don't doubt for a moment that second level teachers are extremely professional in their approach; they are the ones doubting themselves.

katydid

neverfinished wrote: »

I have no intention of ever standing at a counter and justifying myself to a member of the public. My point is that I should not even be approached by a parent in that way. I am certain it would most definitely happen to teachers. What would someone be expected to do in that situation?
Again, you can't compare doctor to teacher. There is a general respect for doctors amongst the public and most are held in high regard. Teachers on the other hand, are often shown very little respect. I often think it is because members of the public have gone through the ed system and all have experience of teachers, both good and bad, and somehow feel that they know exactly what our job entails. It's either that or 'June, July and August'. You cannot compare how a member of the public treats a doctor to how they treat a teacher.

So if you are approached by a parent in an inappropriate way, you simply make it clear politely that it IS inappropriate, and refer them to the appeals process. End of story.

I have to do this with students; not students I meet occasionally in the shop, but students who sit in front of me in class every day. I give them feedback, explain where they went wrong (and where they went right) and that's it. End of discussion.

Just because members of the public have a certain perception doesn't mean you have to pander to that perception. I have no more obligation to discuss my work with a member of the public as any other person who interacts with them. Respect has to be earned - if teachers are happy to start explaining themselves and apologising to the public, they are never going to be taken seriously. We have enough to put up with in terms of the perception you outline; if we accept it and compromise our professionalism, we are on a hiding to nothing.

katydid

neverfinished wrote: »

There are parents ringing and coming into schools every day for smaller matters than exam results. I was harassed by a parent ringing the school every half hour for a week because I confiscated her daughters mobile phone in the corridor. She spoke to the principal and year head to complain too. Other colleagues have had similar experiences - you don't give enough homework, you give too much homework, my child said you said X, you didn't let my child go to the bathroom etc. I have had parents ring to question 5 marks a child lost in a chapter test in first year. You cannot refuse to speak. We are professionals.

I don't think you understand the dynamics of a secondary school and parental involvement.

I have worked in secondary schools. I understand how the dynamics work. But you, as a second level teacher, are a professional, and while parents have a role to play and a right to a certain level of involvement in a child's school life, they do NOT have the right to question your professionalism. If

You can't reuse to speak to parents. But you can set parameters on what is discussed. Or do you think they should be allowed to dictate to you how you teach your class?

Education matters

katydid wrote: »

The motivation of students is irrelevant in this. Fifteen year olds are not children, they are young adults, perfectly capable of understanding actions and consequences.

If anything, they are likely to be MORE engaged with the assessment process if it's happening on an ongoing basis, and not in a big exam hall at the end of a three year cycle. They will be advised and prepared for assessment, and, just as importantly, given feedback on the results directly by their teacher, who knows them and knows how to give them feedback in a way that they will understand and accept, and that will benefit them in future, similar assessments.

I don't doubt for a moment that second level teachers are extremely professional in their approach; they are the ones doubting themselves.

Of course student motivation is a relevant, as I said in the post the proposals came from an ESRI Report that clearly showed " disengagement" among 14 year olds, who are children. Secondary teachers are not doubting themselves at all, the thread is to do with the TUI recommendation to support the new JC Proposals none of which include assesment for state examinations . Obviously teachers advise, prepare and give feedback to students regardless of the situation or " terminal exam" because teachers do assess on an ongoing basis,!, what else would they be doing?

katydid

Education matters wrote: »

Of course student motivation is a relevant, as I said in the post the proposals came from an ESRI Report that clearly showed " disengagement" among 14 year olds, who are children. Secondary teachers are not doubting themselves at all, the thread is to do with the TUI recommendation to support the new JC Proposals none of which include assesment for state examinations . Obviously teachers advise, prepare and give feedback to students regardless of the situation or " terminal exam" because teachers do assess on an ongoing basis,!, what else would they be doing?

Student engagement has nothing to do with the assessment process and the interaction with parents. Whether or not a student is doing an assessment marked by the teacher or an exam marked by a stranger, the process has to be and can be seen as fair and objective.

But, as I explained, in terms of engagement, students tend to be more engaged in a process where they are directly involved and get feedback from their teacher than in a test at the end of a three year cycle. Teachers don't/can't give feedback on the end of cycle exam.

The question here is that teachers have a problem with the prospect of having to deal with parents. That is a ridiculous reason to stymie a positive development in student assessment and certification.

I know what this tread is about. I simply commented on the original objection raised by teachers.

Education matters

katydid wrote: »

Student engagement has nothing to do with the assessment process and the interaction with parents. Whether or not a student is doing an assessment marked by the teacher or an exam marked by a stranger, the process has to be and can be seen as fair and objective.

But, as I explained, in terms of engagement, students tend to be more engaged in a process where they are directly involved and get feedback from their teacher than in a test at the end of a three year cycle. Teachers don't/can't give feedback on the end of cycle exam.

The question here is that teachers have a problem with the prospect of having to deal with parents. That is a ridiculous reason to stymie a positive development in student assessment and certification.

I know what this tread is about. I simply commented on the original objection raised by teachers.

All students are directly involved in the " process " from day 1 of secondary school. I cannot believe that anyone would say student engagement has nothing to do with the assessment process, teachers spend all dy every day trying to engage students in order that they develop a love for the topic and achieve their best, a disengaged individual is highly unlikely to engage with the assessment process at the end of the cycle.
I believe it is very disingenuous to say teachers have a problem with having to deal with parents and that was the sole reason they stymied a positive development, as has been said there were numerous reasons to raise objections to this process and thankfully for those involved the Department agreed and altered their initial position.

katydid

Education matters wrote: »

All students are directly involved in the " process " from day 1 of secondary school. I cannot believe that anyone would say student engagement has nothing to do with the assessment process, teachers spend all dy every day trying to engage students in order that they develop a love for the topic and achieve their best, a disengaged individual is highly unlikely to engage with the assessment process at the end of the cycle.
I believe it is very disingenuous to say teachers have a problem with having to deal with parents and that was the sole reason they stymied a positive development, as has been said there were numerous reasons to raise objections to this process and thankfully for those involved the Department agreed and altered their initial position.

They are involved in the process, however, as you rightly point out, there is a marked level of disengagement. There would be less disengagement in the process if the assessment process were on an ongoing basis. I have taught in Germany, and right from the equivalent of first year, the students are conscious of and engaged in the assessment procedure, and anxious for it to take place. To be honest, I wouldn't like to see the level of competitiveness I saw there - too much stress, because of their three tier system - but there certainly is engagement.
I'm not the one saying that teachers have a problem with parents. It's the second level teachers are saying it. I didn't say either that it was the sole reason - but it is the one teachers were most vocal about. On this very thread.
The present situation is a fudge. No state certified assessment, just extra work for teachers with no value on it.

neverfinished

I brought up one example of something that teachers may have considered as a reason not to accept junior cycle because you had grabbed onto an idea that teachers were worried about being objective and ran with it. It is only one small objection I have to this reform. I object to the changing of courses without real consultation with teachers. I object to CPD that so far leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't deal with issues teachers have. I object to allowing random short courses be introduced where there seems to be no real observation from an outside source. I believe this will lead to teachers feeling like they have to compete with colleagues to come up courses in their 'spare' time and an ever increasing competition for hours. I worry that local schools will compete with each other to have the most interesting courses and teachers may be asked/encouraged by management to give good grades in these. My main concern is changing the Junior Cert for the sake of change but not considering that these students will then have to walk into the traditional leaving cert with the same old course that was always there. The junior cert should not have been changed without the Leaving Cert also undergoing significant change too. I think more consultation with teachers before the larger decisions were made could have saved a lot of trouble.

katydid

neverfinished wrote: »

I brought up one example of something that teachers may have considered as a reason not to accept junior cycle because you had grabbed onto an idea that teachers were worried about being objective and ran with it. It is only one small objection I have to this reform. I object to the changing of courses without real consultation with teachers. I object to CPD that so far leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't deal with issues teachers have. I object to allowing random short courses be introduced where there seems to be no real observation from an outside source. I believe this will lead to teachers feeling like they have to compete with colleagues to come up courses in their 'spare' time and an ever increasing competition for hours. I worry that local schools will compete with each other to have the most interesting courses and teachers may be asked/encouraged by management to give good grades in these. My main concern is changing the Junior Cert for the sake of change but not considering that these students will then have to walk into the traditional leaving cert with the same old course that was always there. The junior cert should not have been changed without the Leaving Cert also undergoing significant change too. I think more consultation with teachers before the larger decisions were made could have saved a lot of trouble.

The two major points of discussion in the media and elsewhere were objectivity and possible pressure - the two being linked by the fear of objectivity being compromised by pressure.

There are certainly other objections - much more valid ones, such as the lack of resources, and no guarantee of proper external verification. But they were not highlighted.

neverfinished

I don't think this particular thread has anything to do with the media. It is the thoughts of the teachers on this forum regarding TUI and their recommendation that we accept it. Each poster here is expressing their own opinion not a 'collective' teacher opinion. You are taking snippets of posts and focusing on those rather than the points being made here.

katydid

neverfinished wrote: »

I don't think this particular thread has anything to do with the media. It is the thoughts of the teachers on this forum regarding TUI and their recommendation that we accept it. Each poster here is expressing their own opinion not a 'collective' teacher opinion. You are taking snippets of posts and focusing on those rather than the points being made here.

I cited the media as a forum where these matters were discussed. As well as the pub, the staff room, internet forums...

Read the comments on various threads on this forum and you will see that repeatedly it is those two issues that are the main focus of discussion. Not the only two, but the main focus.