TUI recommend acceptance of new JC

deiseindublin

No surprise here then.
Be interesting to see what happens with ASTI with 2 exec members saying they recommending a NO.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0828/724168-junior-cycle/

km79

deiseindublin wrote: »

No surprise here then.
Be interesting to see what happens with ASTI with 2 exec members saying they recommending a NO.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0828/724168-junior-cycle/

I'm gonna guess we won't get a recommendation from the asti
which is as good as a Yes .........
the end is nigh

acequion

km79 wrote: »

I'm gonna guess we won't get a recommendation from the asti
which is as good as a Yes .........
the end is nigh

Maybe,but let's not give in! What it is is a complete capitulation by the unions [surprise,surpirse!] and just before an election [ahem,ahem!]

But astifightback,ever the warriors for teachers' rights, have a good campaign already underway and I'm certainly rowing in behind them.

km79

acequion wrote: »

Maybe,but let's not give in! What it is is a complete capitulation by the unions [surprise,surpirse!] and just before an election [ahem,ahem!]

But astifightback,ever the warriors for teachers' rights, have a good campaign already underway and I'm certainly rowing in behind them.

ballot without recommendation
complete cop out
all feels so familiar

deiseindublin

Yeah, I'm TUI and the No Recommendation last time really annoyed me. It's a complete cop out. It's in effect recommending a Yes without having the balls to say it.

2011abc

Extremely suspicious that INMO voted Yes by over 70% .They were always one of the more combative unions and Liam Doran WAS a strident defender of his members .

ASTI putting it to members with No recommendation .I wonder which of their hierarchy will be joining the GS this time on the tour of staffrooms trying to persuade vulnerable teachers to vote Yes ?

Jamfa

2011abc wrote: »

Extremely suspicious that INMO voted Yes by over 70% .They were always one of the more combative unions and Liam Doran WAS a strident defender of his members .

ASTI putting it to members with No recommendation .I wonder which of their hierarchy will be joining the GS this time on the tour of staffrooms trying to persuade vulnerable teachers to vote Yes ?

Did the INMO vote Yes to the new JC?

acequion

Jamfa wrote: »

Did the INMO vote Yes to the new JC?

I think it's quite obvious that he's talking about something else there!

acequion

Based on recent trends with campaigns and ballots the most likely scenario is that this JC will get passed. Or maybe not. Maybe teachers will see it for what it really is and finally grow a pair.

I will be retired before it all takes it real toll but what I would say to young teachers is to think long and hard before you vote. You're still doing CP hours,still doing unpaid S&S,still have to contend with worse sick leave than in England,young teachers are still on an inferior scale,we are still the most casualised teaching body in Europe and forget going back to further your education as there's no longer any credit for that. And that's only some of what has happened in recent years.

Are you really going to make it easy for a dying Government to further erode your working conditions by imposing such draconian and unnecessary changes?

political analyst

acequion wrote: »

Based on recent trends with campaigns and ballots the most likely scenario is that this JC will get passed. Or maybe not. Maybe teachers will see it for what it really is and finally grow a pair.

The assessment of pupils by their teachers will not be part of the State examination system. Furthermore, Andrew Phelan's claim that the reform will lead to schools being blamed for poor results - which has happened in England - is incorrect because, in Ireland, it's a straight choice between a voluntary school and a State-run school and the increase in the population means that it is highly unlikely that "league tables" would lead to a school becoming massively under-subscribed.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0825/723386-asti/

acequion wrote: »

I will be retired before it all takes it real toll but what I would say to young teachers is to think long and hard before you vote. You're still doing CP hours,still doing unpaid S&S,still have to contend with worse sick leave than in England,young teachers are still on an inferior scale,we are still the most casualised teaching body in Europe and forget going back to further your education as there's no longer any credit for that. And that's only some of what has happened in recent years.

Are you really going to make it easy for a dying Government to further erode your working conditions by imposing such draconian and unnecessary changes?

I'm aware that the threatened redundancy of over-quota teachers was a factor in the decision to accept HRA but, surely, the integrity of the teaching profession is bigger than any particular member of that profession, i.e. sacrificing the jobs of a few for the greater good. Even if legal action in the event of rejection of HRA had been ultimately unsuccessful, it might have led to an injunction being granted to prevent redundancies, thus causing a delay, which would embarrass the Labour Party in the run-up to the general election.

The teachers' unions must have known that the protection of the CPA against further pay-cuts would not apply to teachers who joined the profession after the passing of the CPA. The acceptance of the CPA meant that new teachers were abandoned by the unions and thus is worthy of comparison to hanging South Vietnam out to dry in 1975.

gaiscioch

It's only a matter of time before the free market fundamentalists organise to demand greater "efficiencies" in our education system by selling it off to a private corporation. I'm surprised it has escaped this long.

There could be distinct economies of scale for a certain Mr O'Brien in that one as he'll then own the privatised Irish Water business and can charge every student for water (and no doubt much more), while ensuring that all other contracts connected with education are lobbied for on his behalf by those totally impartial journalists in Independent Newspapers and a myriad of radio stations. And, indeed, if the annual fee per student is not increased by the government in power, said media outlets will campaign to bring down said government.

I just love where this brave new world of capitalist supremacy over democracy is going in the name of "efficiency". [Anybody who hasn't familiarised themselves with Thomas Piketty's important thesis on the rise of greater inequality, the transfer of public wealth into the hands of fewer and fewer people (move towards oligarchy), and the growth of capitalist fundamentalism, can get a summary here.]

Vote No (obviously).

political analyst

gaiscioch wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before the free market fundamentalists organise to demand greater "efficiencies" in our education system by selling it off to a private corporation. I'm surprised it has escaped this long.

There could be distinct economies of scale for a certain Mr O'Brien in that one as he'll then own the privatised Irish Water business and can charge every student for water (and no doubt much more), while ensuring that all other contracts connected with education are lobbied for on his behalf by those totally impartial journalists in Independent Newspapers and a myriad of radio stations. And, indeed, if the annual fee per student is not increased by the government in power, said media outlets will campaign to bring down said government.

I just love where this brave new world of capitalist supremacy over democracy is going in the name of "efficiency". [Anybody who hasn't familiarised themselves with Thomas Piketty's important thesis on the rise of greater inequality, the transfer of public wealth into the hands of fewer and fewer people (move towards oligarchy), and the growth of capitalist fundamentalism, can get a summary here.]

Vote No (obviously).

There's no evidence that he is interested in contracts connected to education and schools, unlike Irish Water, are not semi-state bodies.

Actually, voluntary secondary schools are private institutions anyway.

gaiscioch

political analyst wrote: »

There's no evidence that he is interested in contracts connected to education and schools, unlike Irish Water, are not semi-state bodies.

Actually, voluntary secondary schools are private institutions anyway.

1) That individual is interested in anything which involves money or power. particularly when it means risk-free state contracts with payment guaranteed on time.

2) Precisely; which is why the lapdogs of the "privatise everything public" ideology will claim that the entire education system under the control of a private corporation will give more "efficiencies" than having it owned by many organisations.

acequion

gaiscioch wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before the free market fundamentalists organise to demand greater "efficiencies" in our education system by selling it off to a private corporation. I'm surprised it has escaped this long.

There could be distinct economies of scale for a certain Mr O'Brien in that one as he'll then own the privatised Irish Water business and can charge every student for water (and no doubt much more), while ensuring that all other contracts connected with education are lobbied for on his behalf by those totally impartial journalists in Independent Newspapers and a myriad of radio stations. And, indeed, if the annual fee per student is not increased by the government in power, said media outlets will campaign to bring down said government.

I just love where this brave new world of capitalist supremacy over democracy is going in the name of "efficiency". [Anybody who hasn't familiarised themselves with Thomas Piketty's important thesis on the rise of greater inequality, the transfer of public wealth into the hands of fewer and fewer people (move towards oligarchy), and the growth of capitalist fundamentalism, can get a summary here.]

Vote No (obviously).

Thanks for the links there,will look forward to reading. And I completely agree with you. But we,Irish make it easy by voting through every right wing proposal. And the same applies within teaching which is why I'm not too optimistic.

The Greeks once said,"We are not the Irish" In fact the reverse is far more true. I had to admire their no to austerity vote in the summer. Even though it got them nowhere because the big boys ultimately laid on the pressure. They don't even need to do that here.

political analyst

gaiscioch wrote: »

1) That individual is interested in anything which involves money or power. particularly when it means risk-free state contracts with payment guaranteed on time.

I don't think there'd be much money for him to make in education.

gaiscioch wrote: »

2) Precisely; which is why the lapdogs of the "privatise everything public" ideology will claim that the entire education system under the control of a private corporation will give more "efficiencies" than having it owned by many organisations.

If you have any evidence that privatisation of schools or of the State exam system is being planned then please share it.

Perhaps you've been watching too many dystopian films.

2011abc

You're not really very au fair with developments in the UK and USA if you don't realise privatisation in education there is snowballing .And of course we always mimic their failing policies generally adopting them just as they are dropping them as chronic failures .
Any recent changes in Irish educational policy have been entirely driven by austerity politics and the governments desire to bail out the bond holders they swore to burn.

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

I don't think there'd be much money for him to make in education.


If you have any evidence that privatisation of schools or of the State exam system is being planned then please share it.

Perhaps you've been watching too many dystopian films.

He owns Independent college no?

2011abc

By the way I gave incorrect info on this thread last night.TheASTI are putting the vote to members without a recommendation. It seems the top table wanted to recommend it .Also they refuse to reveal details of the sort of practical workload on teachers correcting their own students work .There is a fear expressed by ASTI Fightback that a more rigorous regime than is being expected may already be in the pipeline ( to be revealed after the turkeys have voted for Christmas )

political analyst

Gebgbegb wrote: »

He owns Independent college no?

I meant that there wouldn't be much money for him to make in primary or secondary education.

political analyst

2011abc wrote: »

You're not really very au fair with developments in the UK and USA if you don't realise privatisation in education there is snowballing .And of course we always mimic their failing policies generally adopting them just as they are dropping them as chronic failures .
Any recent changes in Irish educational policy have been entirely driven by austerity politics and the governments desire to bail out the bond holders they swore to burn.

Ireland is a much smaller country than the UK or the USA.

Education matters

deiseindublin wrote: »

No surprise here then.
Be interesting to see what happens with ASTI with 2 exec members saying they recommending a NO.


TUI have campaigned steadily since Ruairi Quinns initial announcement to dilute these proposals By recommending acceptance are they not saying that finally after three years of intense negotiations this is a very different proposal? I certainly don't find it surprising that the union would recommend acceptance of a proposal they had massive input into. We have moved the goalposts considerably, from 100% internal assesment to 60 % now to 0%. Yes there are workload implications but any Union who can convince the Department to give every teacher of JC a class a week off has obviously done something right. Initially we were all told this was a cost saving exercise, now it's costing the Department money. In my view the precedent is set, teachers will receive time in lieu of future " initiatives", maybe not ideal but a step in the right direction, never the less

evolving_doors

Education matters wrote: »

deiseindublin wrote: »

No surprise here then.
Be interesting to see what happens with ASTI with 2 exec members saying they recommending a NO.


TUI have campaigned steadily since Ruairi Quinns initial announcement to dilute these proposals By recommending acceptance are they not saying that finally after three years of intense negotiations this is a very different proposal? I certainly don't find it surprising that the union would recommend acceptance of a proposal they had massive input into. We have moved the goalposts considerably, from 100% internal assesment to 60 % now to 0%. Yes there are workload implications but any Union who can convince the Department to give every teacher of JC a class a week of has obviously done something right. Initially we were all told this was a cost saving exercise, now it's costing the Department money. In my view the precedent is set, teachers will receive time in lieu of future " initiatives", maybe not ideal but a step in the right direction, never the less

Where's the 'class a week off' coming from?

katydid

political analyst wrote: »

There's no evidence that he is interested in contracts connected to education and schools, unlike Irish Water, are not semi-state bodies.

Actually, voluntary secondary schools are private institutions anyway.

Only in name. They are state funded.

katydid

km79 wrote: »

ballot without recommendation
complete cop out
all feels so familiar

I think a ballot without recommendation is the best thing. Let people make up their own minds without being influenced.

katydid

acequion wrote: »

Based on recent trends with campaigns and ballots the most likely scenario is that this JC will get passed. Or maybe not. Maybe teachers will see it for what it really is and finally grow a pair.

Are you really going to make it easy for a dying Government to further erode your working conditions by imposing such draconian and unnecessary changes?

How is it unnecessary to give people a chance to get marks that aren't based on one day in June?

Education matters

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Education matters wrote: »

Where's the 'class a week off' coming from?

The time implications were discussed in depth and flagged in the Joint Implementation Document, in response to this the Department issued a further appendix outlining " Time to Support Implementation". This states " Teachers of Junior Cycle classes who are fulfilling a maximum 22 hour class contact contract will have the class contact reduced to a maximum of 21 hours 20 minutes". I'm not sure if this is the answer to your question but this time is paid for by the Department. The time allocation for all subjects is clearly stated in the just published Revised Framework document. The unions also successfully negotiated a clause (7.4 Joint Statement on Principles) which states the " Implementation of this agreement will be monitored by an implementation committee comprised of representatives of the signatories to the agreement", meaning there will be on going monitoring of the situation should the proposals be passed.

mirrorwall14

Theres absolutely no detail on how this is going to work though. This year I have two full JC classes in both 2nd and 3rd year (so within the CA years). Thats four classes. A colleague of mine has one third year group and no second years. I get the same one class period off? How is that supposed to work when I have FOUR times the students!

Jamfa

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Theres absolutely no detail on how this is going to work though. This year I have two full JC classes in both 2nd and 3rd year (so within the CA years). Thats four classes. A colleague of mine has one third year group and no second years. I get the same one class period off? How is that supposed to work when I have FOUR times the students!

We never got any time off for having leaving cert exam classes so things will no doubt even out over the years. 22 hours off teaching to prepare for a few junior cycle assessments is a lot more than we've ever got before.

mirrorwall14

Jamfa wrote: »

We never got any time off for having leaving cert exam classes so things will no doubt even out over the years. 22 hours off teaching to prepare for a few junior cycle assessments is a lot more than we've ever got before.

We've never had to document and formally prepare and assess our students before so its not really comparable!

katydid

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We've never had to document and formally prepare and assess our students before so its not really comparable!

You assess and document homework and term tests all the time.

Jamfa

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We've never had to document and formally prepare and assess our students before so its not really comparable!

They're small class-based assessments and we always formally prepare students for assessment. We also assess all the time & surely this can't be that different and we're getting 22 hours to do it.