I know most of us don't believe in an afterlife, but....

SharpshooterTom

Does anyone find the concept of having no afterlife, i.e. absolutely nothing at the end, difficult to comprehend?

What I mean by that is, have you ever found the concept of dying and that just being that difficult to come to terms with at any point in your life?

Personally I've never really had a problem with the idea of being non existent after I die as I couldn't fathom living forever, however I do find this difficult when we grieve for others or lose family members.

Take the shooting incident in Virginia yesterday, I've seen a few interviews of the father of the 24 year old girl who was killed, her boyfriend, the pair of them coming close to tears, but holding up very well. But then I was thinking, they're never going to see her again are they? In my belief she doesn't exist period in any form no longer, she's gone completely forever (as has the cameraman with his grieving fiancé), her father will never physically be with her ever again. Even though they are strangers miles away thinking about scenarios like that breaks my heart looking at their photos on the news etc. This is where I suppose my beliefs come into conflict with personal tragedies, and the concept of having no afterlife its not something I deal with very well at these times. I would have absolutely no coping mechanism in that situation being her father, it would be impossible for me, I couldn't do it.

I know this is a pretty morbid thread and was a bit wary of starting it because I didn't want to evoke painful memories of forum members who have lost loved ones (particularly spouses and children) as I'm sure some of you have, but at the same time I do want to talk about it was hoping to have a respectful and decent conversation (if that's ok).

Like I say its strange when it comes to me, I personally don't care about my (non) existence when I die, but every time I see young people die with lots of potential and plenty ahead of them and their families grieve, the afterlife stuff comes into my head and the concept just rips me up. Its awful.

jimgoose

In the wise words of Bill "Clint Eastwood" Munny, it's a hell of a thing killin' a man.

The Backwards Man

You're one of them eejits that tells wains there's no Santa aren't you OP?

Wang King

"The North is to South what the clock is to time
There's east and there's west and there's everywhere life
I know I was born and I know that I'll die
The in between is mine"

catsbanter

There's only so much parting you can do.

Scuid Mhór

Well, yeah. We can't fathom the concept of oblivion. All of our existence is dictated by our perception - death rids us of this. We can't envision the likeness of an experience we haven't experienced. That's the paradox.

Spanish Eyes

To me it's the same as before I was born.

SharpshooterTom

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Your one of them eejits that tells wains there's no Santa aren't you OP?

No because I don't get pleasure out of telling people my beliefs, my whole thread is centered around why I find having those beliefs actually difficult to have at times.

The_Valeyard

What's that sound I hear????


Its the gallop of the A&A forum into the thread!!!!

To each their own OP, we will get our answer when dead......or not.

Chucken

I know most of us don't believe in an afterlife, but....


Most of who?

kylith

Every night you go to sleep and, most of the time, it's suddenly tomorrow morning and you wake up. Death is like being asleep; you close your eyes and off you go, but there's no tomorrow morning to wake up to. But that's ok, you'll never know about it so it won't bother you.

jimgoose

Eckhart Tolle had the right of it:

"Death is not the opposite of life. Life has no opposite. The opposite of death is birth. Life is eternal."

Birneybau

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

To me it's the same as before I was born.

This is exactly it. You weren't, you were and then you're not.

SharpshooterTom

Chucken wrote: »

I know most of us don't believe in an afterlife, but....


Most of who?

Polls I've read on here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056122628

75% of AH users said they don't believe in an afterlife, I'm assuming I'm in decent company when I started the thread (hence the title), buts the concept is something at times I've found difficult to comprehend, that's all, I'm just invoking a discussion about it.

The Backwards Man

The_Valeyard wrote: »

What's that sound I hear????


Its the gallop of the A&A forum into the thread!!!!

To each their own OP, we will get our answer when dead......or not.

Aye, I wouldn't be one for the aul afterlife mullarkey meself, but I'll tell you one thing, I'd pay top dollar to see the look on some of the atheists' faces if it turns out there is one.:pac:

Agricola

It would be nice to believe in things simply because it's more palatable or comforts me but sadly Im not wired like that. In my early 30's and I've been lucky not to have lost anyone really close to me so far. But I know when that day comes, trying to believe they exist in an afterlife or are looking down on me wont help in anyway. They'll be gone. The end.

Strazdas

kylith wrote: »

Every night you go to sleep and, most of the time, it's suddenly tomorrow morning and you wake up. Death is like being asleep; you close your eyes and off you go, but there's no tomorrow morning to wake up to. But that's ok, you'll never know about it so it won't bother you.

That's not a good analogy at all though. You're very much alive at night time and you're also dreaming.

The Backwards Man

Birneybau wrote: »

This is exactly it. You weren't, you were and then you're not.

There's an anomaly in that sequence that people conveniently overlook most of the time.:P

DanielODonnell

I wouldn't waste a minute of my life on an atheist

Chucken

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Polls I've read on here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056122628

75% of AH users said they don't believe in an afterlife, I'm assuming I'm in decent company when I started the thread (hence the title), buts the concept is something at times I've found difficult to comprehend, that's all, I'm just invoking a discussion about it.

Ah that was 2010. Out of date.;)

Wang King

Chucken wrote: »

Ah that was 2010. Out of date.;)

It's closer to 90% nowadays

kylith

Strazdas wrote: »

That's not a good analogy at all though. You're very much alive at night time and you're also dreaming.

But you don't know about it when you wake up, so it's as if you don't dream and you're not alive.

The Backwards Man

kylith wrote: »

But you don't know about it when you wake up, so it's as if you don't dream and you're not alive.

I had a dream this morning that I was playing cricket on a steep hill. I even woke up and googled 'steepest cricket creases'. No results. Wasn't dead.

eviltwin

I used to believe in the afterlife and far from being a comfort it used to terrify me that I would die and go to hell. I don't believe in it anymore and it makes life easier. I say that having lost a parent and a best friend, it would be lovely to meet them again but I've reached acceptance that I won't and I'm okay with that.

Son Of A Vidic

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

I know most of us don't believe in an afterlife..

I'm not really sure how you can ascertain that most people don't believe in an afterlife. Going by my own experience, I have found that most of my friends, family and colleagues don't really know what to believe. Like myself, they're not certain if there is something and they're not certain if there is nothing.

umop apisdn

I think there is a lot more to infinity than the little purely physical world we know of. Are we spiritual beings having a physical experience, or purely physical beings with no spirituality at all.

beks101

It's a tough concept to get on board with alright, when faced with a personal bereavement or even when trying to come to terms with someone else's tragedy.

I guess that's why so many people turn to religion in the first place. To make death a bit more palatable.

But death is just death, isn't it. The end to consciousness as we know it. In my own encounter with grief, the notion of your loved one no longer existing or being nothing but dirt in the ground when they were so much in life is completely grotesque, an almighty slap in the face, a complete insult to who they were in the first place.

And you stew in that disbelief and anger for a while. And then you begin to notice that life is trudging on regardless of your pain, that alarm clock still goes off in the morning, those bills still need to be paid, yer wan in the office is still a pain in the hole and people are still falling in love and getting married and having babies and the sun still sets at night and all that jazz.

And you come to a point where their death sort of finds a place in your life. You begrudgingly fit it in. Maybe by reminiscing with friends, or writing letters to him, or wearing odd socks just like he used to. Or smiling at things that you know he'd get a kick out of. He of course is still dirt in the ground, but he's shaping the course of your new life, post-him, in some way. New perspectives and important memories. Little moments maybe.

Anyways I'm rambling. I think there's ways of processing death that don't make it seem so morbid and depressing, without necessarily needing to turn to some god for comfort.

Dravokivich

I'm sure I'll figure something out when it comes to it.

catsbanter

Energy can neither be created or destroyed, but can transer from one form to another

DanielODonnell

beks101 wrote: »

It's a tough concept to get on board with alright, when faced with a personal bereavement or even when trying to come to terms with someone else's tragedy.

I guess that's why so many people turn to religion in the first place. To make death a bit more palatable.

But death is just death, isn't it. The end to consciousness as we know it. In my own encounter with grief, the notion of your loved one no longer existing or being nothing but dirt in the ground when they were so much in life is completely grotesque, an almighty slap in the face, a complete insult to who they were in the first place.

And you stew in that disbelief and anger for a while. And then you begin to notice that life is trudging on regardless of your pain, that alarm clock still goes off in the morning, those bills still need to be paid, yer wan in the office is still a pain in the hole and people are still falling in love and getting married and having babies and the sun still sets at night and all that jazz.

And you come to a point where their death sort of finds a place in your life. You begrudgingly fit it in. Maybe by reminiscing with friends, or writing letters to him, or wearing odd socks just like he used to. Or smiling at things that you know he'd get a kick out of. He of course is still dirt in the ground, but he's shaping the course of your new life, post-him, in some way. New perspectives and important memories. Little moments maybe.

Anyways I'm rambling. I think there's ways of processing death that don't make it seem so morbid and depressing, without necessarily needing to turn to some god for comfort.

God save us from this progressive atheist Ireland, I would rather live in Protestant deep south USA than alongside atheists

Fleawuss

The most important word in the OP to the credulous is "but". And they do pile onto it.

Chet T16

Having nothing after death makes what you have now more valuable. How can you appreciate what you have now if you think something better comes after.

NachoBusiness

jimgoose wrote: »

Eckhart Tolle had the right of it:

"Death is not the opposite of life. Life has no opposite. The opposite of death is birth. Life is eternal."

Sounds like he was having a bit of a breakdown tbf.

Birneybau

DanielODonnell wrote: »

God save us from this progressive atheist Ireland, I would rather live in Protestant deep south USA than alongside atheists

Sure, that's where your fans live. Go!

One eyed Jack

DanielODonnell wrote: »

God save us from this progressive atheist Ireland, I would rather live in Protestant deep south USA than alongside atheists

Seriously, was that necessary?

I'm a religious person, and even I can appreciate when someone is able to express their thoughts so well, regardless of whether they having faith in an afterlife or not.

People who are religious get a bad enough rep around here without you giving anyone extra ammunition!

DanielODonnell

I don't have to sit back and read comments such as dead people being "dirt in the ground", it is ridiculous caper

Chucken

DanielODonnell wrote: »

I don't have to sit back and read comments such as dead people being "dirt in the ground", it is ridiculous caper

Its also a fact.

kylith

Well, how else would you describe their body?

Berserker

kylith wrote: »

Every night you go to sleep and, most of the time, it's suddenly tomorrow morning and you wake up. Death is like being asleep; you close your eyes and off you go, but there's no tomorrow morning to wake up to. But that's ok, you'll never know about it so it won't bother you.

The analogy of going to sleep and never waking up is what some lucky people experience when they die. If you work or know anyone who works in a caring or medical capacity then you will know that death is a very different experience for many people.

kylith

Berserker wrote: »

The analogy of going to sleep and never waking up is what some lucky people experience when they die. If you work or know of anyone who works in a caring or medical capacity then you will know that death is a very different experience for many people.

The process of dying is different to death though. All we can hope for with that is that it'll be quick and painless; which is why I support assisted suicide.

I remember seeing my grandmother in her last days. For years I felt guilty that I didn't cry when she died but it was simply that her being gone was nowhere near as bad as seeing what happened to her in the run-up to that.

umop apisdn

kylith wrote: »

The process of dying is different to death though. All we can hope for with that is that it'll be quick and painless; which is why I support assisted suicide.

I remember seeing my grandmother in her last days. For years I felt guilty that I didn't cry when she died but it was simply that her being gone was nowhere near as bad as seeing what happened to her in the run-up to that.

She should have done the decent thing instead of being a burden on you, and more importantly, the taxpayer.

Poster banned

Gilbert Grape

Dmt has the answer

Sand

I can see how belief in an afterlife is a comforting crutch to someone who is grieving. Someone they love has been taken from them, they will never see or talk to them again: its a great comfort to pretend they will see and talk to them again in the next life. I'd never challenge that if it helps people though a tough time.

But no, I don't find the absence of an afterlife difficult to comprehend. Lets face it, if life has a start and and end, its is precious. You shouldn't waste it. You should try to live the best life you can for as long as you can because you wont get a do over.

On the other hand, if there is an afterlife and its cool and fun, and all our family and friends are there waiting to hang out with us again then what are we doing wasting time here? That's what's difficult to comprehend. Might as jump in front of a train tomorrow and join the great party in the sky. Sure beats the hell out of growing old. Ultimately a belief in an afterlife is rooted in some inhuman thinking which prioritises concepts and ideas over actual people.

kylith

umop apisdn wrote: »

She should have done the decent thing instead of being a burden on you, and more importantly, the taxpayer.

She should have had the option to forego the pain and indignity.

One eyed Jack

Sand wrote: »

I can see how belief in an afterlife is a comforting crutch to someone who is grieving. Someone they love has been taken from them, they will never see or talk to them again: its a great comfort to pretend they will see and talk to them again in the next life. I'd never challenge that if it helps people though a tough time.

But no, I don't find the absence of an afterlife difficult to comprehend. Lets face it, if life has a start and and end, its is precious. You shouldn't waste it. You should try to live the best life you can for as long as you can because you wont get a do over.

On the other hand, if there is an afterlife and its cool and fun, and all our family and friends are there waiting to hang out with us again then what are we doing wasting time here? That's what's difficult to comprehend. Might as jump in front of a train tomorrow and join the great party in the sky. Sure beats the hell out of growing old. Ultimately a belief in an afterlife is rooted in some inhuman thinking which prioritises concepts and ideas over actual people.

Wouldn't that make it human thinking then, seeing as it's so far only humans who have expressed a belief in some form of life after death and reincarnation and so on?

I don't agree that it's the kind of thinking that priorities concepts and ideas over people at all either tbh, as the very idea is based upon people living eternal life, merely transitioning from one realm to another.

beks101

DanielODonnell wrote: »

I don't have to sit back and read comments such as dead people being "dirt in the ground", it is ridiculous caper

Indeed you don't, you can simply choose not to click into a thread titled 'I know most of us don't believe in an afterlife, but..."

Sand

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Wouldn't that make it human thinking then, seeing as it's so far only humans who have expressed a belief in some form of life after death and reincarnation and so on?

I don't agree that it's the kind of thinking that priorities concepts and ideas over people at all either tbh, as the very idea is based upon people living eternal life, merely transitioning from one realm to another.

I don't think we can be sure that various animals don't also have a belief in an afterlife. There is nothing inherently human about believing things which aren't true - dogs in front of a mirrors will believe they are being threatened by some other dog for example.

Its a way of thinking that discounts and devalues human life. What is a death or a tragedy if it merely means the dead have moved onto another realm which is so much better than this life? Why aren't funerals a celebration if that's really true? Its rooted in a dangerous, inhuman belief system that prioritises the objectives, goals and ruleset of an entirely imaginary and non-human entity and presumes those objectives and ruleset overtake any other human concern.

Luckily, the worst excesses (check out IS for example, who are true believers) are by and large tempered by the human experience and a lack of *true* belief.

ToddyDoody

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Does anyone find the concept of having no afterlife, i.e. absolutely nothing at the end, difficult to comprehend?

Not particularly - I've cast off all that religious superstition stuff.
However, with nothing to believe in, I'd argue that life in the 21st century is a ****ty meaningless void, no matter how happy you're forced to be about it.

well spoken man

I for one do not believe in fairy tales..Santa..Easter bunny. God...

OiL RiG

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Not particularly - I've cast off all that religious superstition stuff.
However, with nothing to believe in, I'd argue that life in the 21st century is a ****ty meaningless void, no matter how happy you're forced to be about it.

Personally, I find it far more meaningful to know that this life is it. Your consciousness, your body, and your experiences all seem much more significant when you stop thinking of life as a test followed by a big reunion party. It may not be comforting in times of grief, despair, or even approaching death yourself, but this is all you got, and it's better than the alternative.

I have no trouble not believing in an afterlife. I think of what we believe happens to ants, mice, and other animals when they die: they simply cease to be. We're no different.

One eyed Jack

Sand wrote: »

I don't think we can be sure that various animals don't also have a belief in an afterlife. There is nothing inherently human about believing things which aren't true - dogs in front of a mirrors will believe they are being threatened by some other dog for example.

Its a way of thinking that discounts and devalues human life. What is a death or a tragedy if it merely means the dead have moved onto another realm which is so much better than this life? Why aren't funerals a celebration if that's really true? Its rooted in a dangerous, inhuman belief system that prioritises the objectives, goals and ruleset of an entirely imaginary and non-human entity and presumes those objectives and ruleset overtake any other human concern.

Luckily, the worst excesses (check out IS for example, who are true believers) are by and large tempered by the human experience and a lack of *true* belief.

There it is again! Humans invented the concept of an afterlife, so that's why I suggested that far from inhuman the idea of an afterlife is actually unique to human beings, irrational and all as it is. Human beings aren't known for being particularly rational though, but that again goes to show the way the vast majority of human beings actually think, as opposed to showing any evidence that human beings are inherently rational. We really aren't.

As for the idea that way of thinking discounts and devalues human life, well that depends a lot upon perspective really. I gather you're not too hung up on the idea as I'm thinking you're picturing the atmosphere at a typical Irish Roman Catholic funeral, but there are other religions which their customs are much more akin to a festive celebratory event than the way we do things in this country.

Death is simply what the person makes of it, some will as you said earlier see the idea of an afterlife as a comfort, and some people will see it as yet another wacky irrational notion about spirituality.

I don't know too many people who would see it quite the way you do really tbh. My rational and scientific mind understands that biological decomposition is an obvious inevitability, but the completely and admittedly irrational part of me draws solace from the idea of an afterlife. Irrational? Completely. But that is what it is to be a human being. I understand of course that other people's opinions will differ, which is why I don't usually share my own personal perspective on the idea of death and an afterlife and so on.