Underage girl harrassed by security guard, cautioned by garda.

Stheno

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

I'm aware of this, it's not the action that's the issue it's the punishment. The being apprehended is of course going to happen mistake or not. It's the caution I'd like advice with

What advice are you looking for? A caution is a slap on the wrist as has been posted, I.e. a warning to behave in future

endacl

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Can you point out what exactly isn't making sense?

OK.

if it seems like I'm irrationally jumping to the defense of a friend then maybe that's because to some extent I am.

This bit is understandable. Supporting might be a better response though, than defending.

I think that the whole situation and the many similar cases that must happen daily should be treated with a bit more discretion, she was never given a chance to pay it back, put it back, contact a guardian, or defend herself past protesting her innocence

Why? Just because she was your friend? The security guard followed store policy, and the Guard followed procedure. None of this would have happened if she hadn't nicked inadvertently slipped the lipstick into her pocket.

I don't wanna start and argument here, I want legal advice, not to be told that she "deserved it" or that I shouldn't be looking for advice for her.
I'd ask with all due respect that if you don't have something constructive or helpful to say that you might go vent elsewhere.

This is an open forum. You get the responses you get. It's not good form to have a go at posters who took the time to respond. Even if they're not telling you what you want to hear. That's life. Get over it.

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Because I have a personal connection with her and she's had a real bad time of it. I do know her very well and I truly believe she didn't intend to take out the lipstick. It's not nice seeing a friend being punished for something they didn't do.

She did do it though. She admitted as much.

TadghsMuffins

beyondbelief67 wrote: »

She will see juvenile diversion officer who will talk her through the caution and listen to her, I've posted a link so you can read it. Hope this helps you.

Thank you! That was exactly what I was looking for kudos!

endacl

moc moc a moc wrote: »

You're what psychologists call an "enabler".

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Mod:

This is not an attempt at legal discussion and it's not helpful. Please try to keep on topic.

It also inaccurate. We may be veering into my field now....

Anyway! As ye were...

the_syco

endacl wrote: »

'Drag you down with her'?

Seriously?

They may mean "guilty by association". If your mate is banned, and you try to stand up for her, you may find yourself banned too.

colm_mcm wrote: »

AFAIK they can't stop someone to search for shoplifted items till they leave the store. They may well have seen her do it earlier.

The security guy can't search them after they leave, but can ask for them to empty their bag. They have to wait until the person has left the store, as at any time the person could pay for the stuff up until they leave the store. This is the reason why there was a guard nearby; because they were most likely alerted prior to the OP's friend leaving the store.

TadghsMuffins

endacl wrote: »

OK.

if it seems like I'm irrationally jumping to the defense of a friend then maybe that's because to some extent I am.

This bit is understandable. Supporting might be a better response though, than defending.

I think that the whole situation and the many similar cases that must happen daily should be treated with a bit more discretion, she was never given a chance to pay it back, put it back, contact a guardian, or defend herself past protesting her innocence

Why? Just because she was your friend? The security guard followed store policy, and the Guard followed procedure. None of this would have happened if she hadn't nicked inadvertently slipped the lipstick into her pocket.

I don't wanna start and argument here, I want legal advice, not to be told that she "deserved it" or that I shouldn't be looking for advice for her.
I'd ask with all due respect that if you don't have something constructive or helpful to say that you might go vent elsewhere.

This is an open forum. You get the responses you get. It's not good form to have a go at posters who took the time to respond. Even if they're not telling you what you want to hear. That's life. Get over it.


She did do it though. She admitted as much.

Look, I appreciate what you have to say but this is a *visceral* response. I'm looking for legal advice, if this isn't the place to come for it then that's fine. But considering I can neither hide nor delete this post, there's not much I can do here to adress what's rustling jimmies here.

Furthermore, you can point out all of the flaws you'd like here, but at the end of the day I'm just looking for advice, not to back myself up, not to back her up, just for advice.

Again, if this is the wrong place to come for this, then I apologise and I'll happily take the thread down if I can. Right now I can't. If you know a mod, by all means point it out to them

TadghsMuffins

Stheno wrote: »

What advice are you looking for? A caution is a slap on the wrist as has been posted, I.e. a warning to behave in future

Particularly regarding cautions and their existence in criminal records, as far as I'm aware a caution still stands against you when you're being vetted by the gardai, something important to the person in question

Frynge

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

I'm aware of this, it's not the action that's the issue it's the punishment. The being apprehended is of course going to happen mistake or not. It's the caution I'd like advice with

Tbh I have no advice of any value in regard to the caution.

Another poster has said they left tesco with a bottle of water not thinking one day and even though I have never done that I did leave a restaurant one day without paying as I had a lot on my mind so I know it can happen. But as complicated as a teenage girls life might be I would reckon it does not have that level of absent mindedness as to pay for some things and forget others.

The whole scenario you have put forward here just does not seem like the most probable series of events and as such this might not be the best place to seek advice. This friend of yours has done one of either two things. 1) she stole the item or 2) she accidentally left the shop without paying for the item. I personally see no reason why there should be no punishment for either action.

I have no experience of Garda or Garda liaison officers but I would imagine the best course would be to meet with them and discuss the matter with the purpose of ensuring your friend never again steals/leaves without paying for an item.

Pat Mustard

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Look, I appreciate what you have to say but this is a *visceral* response. I'm looking for legal advice, if this isn't the place to come for it then that's fine.

You can look for general advice and you can look for legal discussion but it is not allowed to seek or give legal advice on this forum or anywhere else on boards.ie.

TadghsMuffins

Frynge wrote: »

Tbh I have no advice of any value in regard to the caution.

Another poster has said they left tesco with a bottle of water not thinking one day and even though I have never done that I did leave a restaurant one day without paying as I had a lot on my mind so I know it can happen. But as complicated as a teenage girls life might be I would reckon it does not have that level of absent mindedness as to pay for some things and forget others.

The whole scenario you have put forward here just does not seem like the most probable series of events and as such this might not be the best place to seek advice. This friend of yours has done one of either two things. 1) she stole the item or 2) she accidentally left the shop without paying for the item. I personally see no reason why there should be no punishment for either action.

I have no experience of Garda or Garda liaison officers but I would imagine the best course would be to meet with them and discuss the matter with the purpose of ensuring your friend never again steals/leaves without paying for an item.

Thanks, I appreciate that I haven't put this forward in the best fashion and that accordingly it seems unlikely - that's my fault and I apologise. The sympathy might not be advice, but it's still nice to hear when everyone's cyncial

TadghsMuffins

Pat Mustard wrote: »

You can look for general advice and you can look for legal discussion but it is not allowed to seek or give legal advice on this forum or anywhere else on boards.ie.

Thanks Pat, I wasn't aware of that, sorry for the kerfuffle.

Could you please delete this post for me then? I understand that there might be parameters for that that this doesn't fall into, but if it does please do, it's my mistake.

drunkmonkey

If she takes the line it was an accident she's in for a bad time, be truthful with the liaison officer and accept her err of judgement and promise not to do it again and she should be fine.

TadghsMuffins

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If she takes the line it was an accident she's in for a bad time, be truthful with the liaison officer and accept her err of judgement and promise not to do it again and she should be fine.

Hmm, you might be right. We'll talk it over - thanks for the input!

Pat Mustard

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Thanks Pat, I wasn't aware of that, sorry for the kerfuffle.

Could you please delete this post for me then? I understand that there might be parameters for that that this doesn't fall into, but if it does please do, it's my mistake.

It's okay, carry on.

Frynge

I would also like to suggest that maybe don't consider the security guard to be some brutish, jumped up rent a cop sort who harassed your friend. He said to your friend "I know a shoplifter when I see one" and from every ones view bar yourself and your friend, this statement is holding true. I would reckon 99% of security guards would know a genuine mistake when they come across one because quite frankly people in general are just bad a lying.

It might also be worth discussing that with your friend before any meeting with a Garda.

drunkmonkey

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Hmm, you might be right. We'll talk it over - thanks for the input!

I could be wrong too, if it was one of my kids I'd be doing everything possible to not admit any guilt and get them away with it, might be worth one of her parents talking with the Garda involved in private, that's probably what I'd do and see could they agree something, it might involve putting the frightners on her but it would be a plan involving the parents.

Sorry if I came over a bit hard but I'm usually the one that's been shoplifted.

TadghsMuffins

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

just start every post with 'hypothetically...' and you'll be grand.



(*I am not a lawyer)

I'm like, 90% sure that's how the law works

But I'm also not a lawyer ;p

TadghsMuffins

Frynge wrote: »

I would also like to suggest that maybe don't consider the security guard to be some brutish, jumped up rent a cop sort who harassed your friend. He said to your friend "I know a shoplifter when I see one" and from every ones view bar yourself and your friend, this statement is holding true. I would reckon 99% of security guards would know a genuine mistake when they come across one because quite frankly people in general are just bad a lying.

It might also be worth discussing that with your friend before any meeting with a Garda.

I can only apologise for poorly wording this so many times. I'm not inhuman, give me a break. I know security guards are human, my bloody uncles a security guard.

So again, I'll apologise for my wording - I'm sorry I came across so offensively.

TadghsMuffins

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I could be wrong too, if it was one of my kids I'd be doing everything possible to not admit any guilt and get them away with it, might be worth one of her parents talking with the Garda involved in private, that's probably what I'd do and see could they agree something, it might involve putting the frightners on her but it would be a plan involving the parents.

Sorry if I came over a bit hard but I'm usually the one that's been shoplifted.

Is alright mate, I think I've come across as the thickest skulled man alive right here.

That's a pretty solid idea too, definitely to be talked about - thanks!

She put lipstick in her pocket and walked out of the shop. Knowingly or not, she was a shoplifter. Talk to the liason officer as mentioned and be honest. Tell her to be completely honest and to have better decisions in future.

TadghsMuffins

[Deleted User] wrote: »

She put lipstick in her pocket and walked out of the shop. Knowingly or not, she was a shoplifter. Talk to the liason officer as mentioned and be honest. Tell her to be completely honest and to have better decisions in future.

Fair advice that, thank you.

twowheelsonly

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I could be wrong too, if it was one of my kids I'd be doing everything possible to not admit any guilt and get them away with it, might be worth one of her parents talking with the Garda involved in private, that's probably what I'd do and see could they agree something, it might involve putting the frightners on her but it would be a plan involving the parents.

Sorry if I came over a bit hard but I'm usually the one that's been shoplifted.

That's exactly what the Gardai will do and would be delighted to see the parents come on board with it. It's how the parents and the girl herself deal with it that will decide the outcome.
The Gardas' first step will be a chat with the girl and her parents and normally they'd then decide if an official juvenile caution is needed (which is usually done at the station rather than in the house). If they're all upfront and honest then it won't be a problem. She just needs to ensure that it's the first and last time though as Gardai don't like giving you a chance and having it thrown back at them. She won't get a second chance to escape a caution.

Little CuChulainn

It's important to remember that admission into the juvenile diversion program is conditional on the juvenile admitting the offence. Otherwise it goes back to the investigating Garda for prosecution. For a first offence the juvenile will generally get an informal caution. This is not something that appears on a list of previous convictions and it will not affect someone unless they don't change their ways.

2012paddy2012

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

I'm aware of this, it's not the action that's the issue it's the punishment. The being apprehended is of course going to happen mistake or not. It's the caution I'd like advice with

caution: Don't do it again , bye bye. that's it.

Next time she is caught , she will get the same again.


lucky to get a third , probably a summons and yet again another chance..
if she persists, its onto the criminal system and commence convictions.

she should be thrilled it didn't occur years ago before all this (do gooder)
I mean "caution" carry on started.

USA better , 3 strikes and your out. (or in I should say) Would not be as many undesirables wondering about here if authorities were tougher

drunkmonkey

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

caution: Don't do it again , bye bye. that's it.

Next time she is caught , she will get the same again.


lucky to get a third , probably a summons and yet again another chance..
if she persists, its onto the criminal system and commence convictions.

she should be thrilled it didn't occur years ago before all this (do gooder)
I mean "caution" carry on started.

USA better , 3 strikes and your out. (or in I should say) Would not be as many undesirables wondering about here if authorities were tougher

That's all fine unless the retailer wants to press charges.
Once is enough to get caught.

FreudianSlippers

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

USA better , 3 strikes and your out. (or in I should say) Would not be as many undesirables wondering about here if authorities were tougher

What States have three-strikes laws for misdemeanor crimes? As far as I understand it, California is the only State which could potentially count misdemeanor crimes but it's limited to such crimes being the third crime (i.e. following 2 felonies).

AnonoBoy

kid6 wrote: »

In the past I have walked out of shops with small things left in my pocket. In Tesco recently I walked out the front door with a 500ml bottle of water in my pocket. Made it half way down the car park before I realized and had to turn around and go back and pay for it. It is possible to mistakenly forget about something you placed in your pocket.

Why do you put things in your pocket in the first place?

If I'm in Tesco and getting more things than I can carry I use a basket or a trolley.

Mesrine65

colm_mcm wrote: »

AFAIK they can't stop someone to search for shoplifted items till they leave the store. They may well have seen her do it earlier.

Standard operating procedure would be to stop & ask the alleged shoplifter back into the security office once they have passed the last point of purchase.

In the case of anyone underage or a female, a member of staff/management will escort the S/O & shoplifter to the security office, where they will then be asked to return any goods they may have upon their person that has not been purchased.

This is all done under the watchful eye of CCTV.

A refusal to comply will then be reported to AGS, who will then attend & proceed with a search.

Due to the amount of awards re., false arrest, most security companies now operate a policy of 'No CCTV footage, no pull', unless you have corroborative eyes-on of the event & are willing to stop & detain on that merit.

FreudianSlippers

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Why do you put things in your pocket in the first place?

If I'm in Tesco and getting more things than I can carry I use a basket or a trolley.

I'll admit, I've done it... doing the lazy man's load and carrying a few too many things, stuck a bottle of water in the coat pocket. Never forgotten to pay though, considering I'm buying all the other stuff that I'm carrying like a baby through the shop

AnonoBoy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'll admit, I've done it... doing the lazy man's load and carrying a few too many things, stuck a bottle of water in the coat pocket. Never forgotten to pay though, considering I'm buying all the other stuff that I'm carrying like a baby through the shop

Fair enough. It's not something I've ever done myself.