Underage girl harrassed by security guard, cautioned by garda.

TadghsMuffins

Hello again,

The title's obviously inflammatory and has frustrated some responders.

To be as clear as I can:

A friend of mine, underaged and with out a guardian was apprehended outside a Pennies in which she had walked out of with an unpaid lipstick in her pocket along with paid goods.

She's now in the process of being cautioned by a liaison officer. I'd like any advice there is regarding the cautioning process and it's relevance to a criminal record - or any defense she could use to help her case.

moc moc a moc

How does a person put a stick of lipstick in their pocket accidentally? "Forgetting" to pay for it?

Maybe you should let this girl learn a valuable lesson instead of blindly jumping to a criminal's defense and looking for escape strategies.

AnonoBoy

I don't know anyone who keeps things in their pockets that they intend to pay for later.

Although the security guard sounds like he was brisk with her I don't think you could class it as 'harassment' since she had indeed taken something without paying for it.

I don't think any of her rights have been violated. I would have thought a security guard would be more careful about openly calling someone a shoplifter these days but that's about it.

endacl

Store security was on the ball! He did indeed know a shoplifter when he saw one. She admitted it.

Perhaps phone their head office and ask what their policy is re prosecuting shoplifters?

the_syco

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Two weeks ago my friend was stopped by a security guard outside a Pennies

She stopped on her own accord, searched herself by her own accord, and admitted to shoplifting on her own accord. Tell her to pay for everything nexttime.

beyondbelief67

As far as I'm aware when they do a Garda vetting after she is 18 the juvenile caution doesn't show.
People make mistakes, it's easily done, what seems like a good idea when your young often is anything but, which is why those mistakes don't follow you through life.

drunkmonkey

She had the right to say sorry, cop on a bit and stop playing the victim.
If she does all that and doesn't put a foot or hand in the wrong place again she'll avoid a proper criminal record.

She may be a friend but it sounds like this one could drag you down with her, she changes her ways or you need to think hard about what you want in your friends.

endacl

drunkmonkey wrote: »

She had the right to say sorry, cop on a bit and stop playing the victim.
If she does all that and doesn't put a foot or hand in the wrong place again she'll avoid a proper criminal record.

She may be a friend but it sounds like this one could drag you down with her, she changes her ways or you need to think hard about what you want in your friends.

'Drag you down with her'?

Seriously?

haveringchick

How do you think Penneys should handle shoplifters OP?

colm_mcm

AFAIK they can't stop someone to search for shoplifted items till they leave the store. They may well have seen her do it earlier.

Pat Mustard

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Two weeks ago my friend was stopped by a security guard outside a Pennies, and it was found that alongside the goods she had purchased, she had a stick of lipstick in her pocket she had forgotten to pay for.

People can leave premises without paying. It happens. However, this particular story is a bit hard to believe.

People often carry their own shopping bags these days and you would see people putting shopping into those bags, in order to take it to the counter to pay. What you wouldn't tend to see is people putting things into their pockets because whether or not it is done dishonestly, it can have the appearance of dishonesty.

Also, innocent people tend to protest their innocence. Perhaps there is something in your friend's excuse about her anxiety but that is the second excuse in a row now, after having walked out without paying for goods, which were in her pocket.

Maybe somebody could believe one excuse but two excuses in a row is something different.

If your friend thinks that she was hard done by, she should see a solicitor, tell her story and take advice. However, as the story doesn't sound very credible, it could be that the advice may not be to her liking.

TadghsMuffins

As a response to all considering I'm mostly getting some pretty off the ball responses:

I've done this before. It doesn't seem in any way unreasonable to me, if it does to you then I apologise for my portrayal of the situation.
As a matter of fact, I'm annoyed, like a human is allowed to be. I'm pretty ****ing pissed - so if it seems like I'm irrationally jumping to the defense of a friend then maybe that's because to some extent I am.

To those who seem to think this means I don't understand the security guard's position - I do. I don't blame him for how he acted. It pisses me off, but I don't blame him. I think that the whole situation and the many similar cases that must happen daily should be treated with a bit more discretion, she was never given a chance to pay it back, put it back, contact a guardian, or defend herself past protesting her innocence

To those who offered legal advice and insight - thank you it's highly appreciated.

I don't wanna start and argument here, I want legal advice, not to be told that she "deserved it" or that I shouldn't be looking for advice for her.

I'd ask with all due respect that if you don't have something constructive or helpful to say that you might go vent elsewhere.

TadghsMuffins

haveringchick wrote: »

How do you think Penneys should handle shoplifters OP?

See response at the end!

kid6

In the past I have walked out of shops with small things left in my pocket. In Tesco recently I walked out the front door with a 500ml bottle of water in my pocket. Made it half way down the car park before I realized and had to turn around and go back and pay for it. It is possible to mistakenly forget about something you placed in your pocket.

Stheno

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

To those who offered legal advice and insight - thank you it's highly appreciated.

I don't wanna start and argument here, I want legal advice, not to be told that she "deserved it" or that I shouldn't be looking for advice for her.

I'd ask with all due respect that if you don't have something constructive or helpful to say that you might go vent elsewhere.

It's against the charter to give legal advice here.

endacl

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

As a response to all considering I'm mostly getting some pretty off the ball responses:

I've done this before. It doesn't seem in any way unreasonable to me, if it does to you then I apologise for my portrayal of the situation.
As a matter of fact, I'm annoyed, like a human is allowed to be. I'm pretty ****ing pissed - so if it seems like I'm irrationally jumping to the defense of a friend then maybe that's because to some extent I am.

To those who seem to think this means I don't understand the security guard's position - I do. I don't blame him for how he acted. It pisses me off, but I don't blame him. I think that the whole situation and the many similar cases that must happen daily should be treated with a bit more discretion, she was never given a chance to pay it back, put it back, contact a guardian, or defend herself past protesting her innocence

To those who offered legal advice and insight - thank you it's highly appreciated.

I don't wanna start and argument here, I want legal advice, not to be told that she "deserved it" or that I shouldn't be looking for advice for her.

I'd ask with all due respect that if you don't have something constructive or helpful to say that you might go vent elsewhere.

Your post lacks logical coherence.

Just out if interest, you're pissed off... why?

TadghsMuffins

Stheno wrote: »

It's against the charter to give legal advice here.

Is it? Oh I'm sorry I didn't know.

Stheno

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Is it? Oh I'm sorry I didn't know.

Yes.

TadghsMuffins

endacl wrote: »

Your post lacks logical coherence.

Just out if interest, you're pissed off... why?

Can you point out what exactly isn't making sense?

Because I have a personal connection with her and she's had a real bad time of it. I do know her very well and I truly believe she didn't intend to take out the lipstick. It's not nice seeing a friend being punished for something they didn't do.

TadghsMuffins

Stheno wrote: »

Yes.

Blimey.. Well I might as well take this post down then.

jungleman

Store security have to wait until the person has left the premises until they stop them.

The security guard has to physically see the person conceal an item before stopping them, if it was cashier or normal worker who saw it, then they are the person who has to stop the person outside of the premises, not the security.

From the sounds of it, and from what I know working in retail, it's likely that undercover security were following your friend around inside the store, probably from the moment she walked in. They saw her stuff it in her pocket, and waited until she left until a member of security stopped her.

They did their job spot on, there is no harassment whatsoever. Security don't have to be polite, and a failure to be polite isn't violating any civil rights.

Pat Mustard

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Blimey.. Well I might as well take this post down then.

I think that we can take it that you are looking for general advice and discussion rather than legal advice.

drunkmonkey

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Can you point out what exactly isn't making sense?

Because I have a personal connection with her and she's had a real bad time of it. I do know her very well and I truly believe she didn't intend to take out the lipstick. It's not nice seeing a friend being punished for something they didn't do.

Your friend is a shoplifter, don't be so naive as to think she didn't meant to do it or having a bad time gives you a right to be a thief.
Your defending the undefendable.

pablo128

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Can you point out what exactly isn't making sense?

Because I have a personal connection with her and she's had a real bad time of it. I do know her very well and I truly believe she didn't intend to take out the lipstick. It's not nice seeing a friend being punished for something they didn't do.

It's hardly a punishment. A caution is the legal equivalent of a slap on the wrist.
I doubt if it would show up on a garda vetting application. (open to correction).
Let her explain herself to the Gardai and everything should be ok.

Frynge

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

It's not nice seeing a friend being punished for something they didn't do.

But they did leave the store without paying for it, and aperantly under the observing eye of security. Who's job it is to detect and deter shoplifting, I would have assumed.

TadghsMuffins

Pat Mustard wrote: »

I think that we can take it that you are looking for general advice and discussion rather than legal advice.

No, I'm looking for advice regarding the caution, and I apologise for the inflammatory title and the responses it's incurred. I can't find a way to edit/delete it right now - is there a way I can do that on mobile?

TadghsMuffins

Frynge wrote: »

But they did leave the store without paying for it, and aperantly under the observing eye of security. Who's job it is to detect and deter shoplifting, I would have assumed.

I'm aware of this, it's not the action that's the issue it's the punishment. The being apprehended is of course going to happen mistake or not. It's the caution I'd like advice with

moc moc a moc

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

I truly believe she didn't intend to take out the lipstick. It's not nice seeing a friend being punished for something they didn't do.

You're what psychologists call an "enabler".

beyondbelief67

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

I'm aware of this, it's not the action that's the issue it's the punishment. The being apprehended is of course going to happen mistake or not. It's the caution I'd like advice with

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/children_and_young_offenders/garda_juvenile_diversion_programme.html

She will see juvenile diversion officer who will talk her through the caution and listen to her, I've posted a link so you can read it. Hope this helps you.

TadghsMuffins

moc moc a moc wrote: »

You're what psychologists call an "enabler".

If you don't believe it's a mistake that's fine, but that's your opinion. If you have any constructive input I'd love to hear it. If not, there's little point in responding

Pat Mustard

moc moc a moc wrote: »

You're what psychologists call an "enabler".

Mod:

This is not an attempt at legal discussion and it's not helpful. Please try to keep on topic.

Stheno

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

I'm aware of this, it's not the action that's the issue it's the punishment. The being apprehended is of course going to happen mistake or not. It's the caution I'd like advice with

What advice are you looking for? A caution is a slap on the wrist as has been posted, I.e. a warning to behave in future

endacl

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Can you point out what exactly isn't making sense?

OK.

if it seems like I'm irrationally jumping to the defense of a friend then maybe that's because to some extent I am.

This bit is understandable. Supporting might be a better response though, than defending.

I think that the whole situation and the many similar cases that must happen daily should be treated with a bit more discretion, she was never given a chance to pay it back, put it back, contact a guardian, or defend herself past protesting her innocence

Why? Just because she was your friend? The security guard followed store policy, and the Guard followed procedure. None of this would have happened if she hadn't nicked inadvertently slipped the lipstick into her pocket.

I don't wanna start and argument here, I want legal advice, not to be told that she "deserved it" or that I shouldn't be looking for advice for her.
I'd ask with all due respect that if you don't have something constructive or helpful to say that you might go vent elsewhere.

This is an open forum. You get the responses you get. It's not good form to have a go at posters who took the time to respond. Even if they're not telling you what you want to hear. That's life. Get over it.

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Because I have a personal connection with her and she's had a real bad time of it. I do know her very well and I truly believe she didn't intend to take out the lipstick. It's not nice seeing a friend being punished for something they didn't do.

She did do it though. She admitted as much.

TadghsMuffins

beyondbelief67 wrote: »

She will see juvenile diversion officer who will talk her through the caution and listen to her, I've posted a link so you can read it. Hope this helps you.

Thank you! That was exactly what I was looking for kudos!

endacl

moc moc a moc wrote: »

You're what psychologists call an "enabler".

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Mod:

This is not an attempt at legal discussion and it's not helpful. Please try to keep on topic.

It also inaccurate. We may be veering into my field now....

Anyway! As ye were...

the_syco

endacl wrote: »

'Drag you down with her'?

Seriously?

They may mean "guilty by association". If your mate is banned, and you try to stand up for her, you may find yourself banned too.

colm_mcm wrote: »

AFAIK they can't stop someone to search for shoplifted items till they leave the store. They may well have seen her do it earlier.

The security guy can't search them after they leave, but can ask for them to empty their bag. They have to wait until the person has left the store, as at any time the person could pay for the stuff up until they leave the store. This is the reason why there was a guard nearby; because they were most likely alerted prior to the OP's friend leaving the store.

TadghsMuffins

endacl wrote: »

OK.

if it seems like I'm irrationally jumping to the defense of a friend then maybe that's because to some extent I am.

This bit is understandable. Supporting might be a better response though, than defending.

I think that the whole situation and the many similar cases that must happen daily should be treated with a bit more discretion, she was never given a chance to pay it back, put it back, contact a guardian, or defend herself past protesting her innocence

Why? Just because she was your friend? The security guard followed store policy, and the Guard followed procedure. None of this would have happened if she hadn't nicked inadvertently slipped the lipstick into her pocket.

I don't wanna start and argument here, I want legal advice, not to be told that she "deserved it" or that I shouldn't be looking for advice for her.
I'd ask with all due respect that if you don't have something constructive or helpful to say that you might go vent elsewhere.

This is an open forum. You get the responses you get. It's not good form to have a go at posters who took the time to respond. Even if they're not telling you what you want to hear. That's life. Get over it.


She did do it though. She admitted as much.

Look, I appreciate what you have to say but this is a *visceral* response. I'm looking for legal advice, if this isn't the place to come for it then that's fine. But considering I can neither hide nor delete this post, there's not much I can do here to adress what's rustling jimmies here.

Furthermore, you can point out all of the flaws you'd like here, but at the end of the day I'm just looking for advice, not to back myself up, not to back her up, just for advice.

Again, if this is the wrong place to come for this, then I apologise and I'll happily take the thread down if I can. Right now I can't. If you know a mod, by all means point it out to them

TadghsMuffins

Stheno wrote: »

What advice are you looking for? A caution is a slap on the wrist as has been posted, I.e. a warning to behave in future

Particularly regarding cautions and their existence in criminal records, as far as I'm aware a caution still stands against you when you're being vetted by the gardai, something important to the person in question

Frynge

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

I'm aware of this, it's not the action that's the issue it's the punishment. The being apprehended is of course going to happen mistake or not. It's the caution I'd like advice with

Tbh I have no advice of any value in regard to the caution.

Another poster has said they left tesco with a bottle of water not thinking one day and even though I have never done that I did leave a restaurant one day without paying as I had a lot on my mind so I know it can happen. But as complicated as a teenage girls life might be I would reckon it does not have that level of absent mindedness as to pay for some things and forget others.

The whole scenario you have put forward here just does not seem like the most probable series of events and as such this might not be the best place to seek advice. This friend of yours has done one of either two things. 1) she stole the item or 2) she accidentally left the shop without paying for the item. I personally see no reason why there should be no punishment for either action.

I have no experience of Garda or Garda liaison officers but I would imagine the best course would be to meet with them and discuss the matter with the purpose of ensuring your friend never again steals/leaves without paying for an item.

Pat Mustard

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Look, I appreciate what you have to say but this is a *visceral* response. I'm looking for legal advice, if this isn't the place to come for it then that's fine.

You can look for general advice and you can look for legal discussion but it is not allowed to seek or give legal advice on this forum or anywhere else on boards.ie.

TadghsMuffins

Frynge wrote: »

Tbh I have no advice of any value in regard to the caution.

Another poster has said they left tesco with a bottle of water not thinking one day and even though I have never done that I did leave a restaurant one day without paying as I had a lot on my mind so I know it can happen. But as complicated as a teenage girls life might be I would reckon it does not have that level of absent mindedness as to pay for some things and forget others.

The whole scenario you have put forward here just does not seem like the most probable series of events and as such this might not be the best place to seek advice. This friend of yours has done one of either two things. 1) she stole the item or 2) she accidentally left the shop without paying for the item. I personally see no reason why there should be no punishment for either action.

I have no experience of Garda or Garda liaison officers but I would imagine the best course would be to meet with them and discuss the matter with the purpose of ensuring your friend never again steals/leaves without paying for an item.

Thanks, I appreciate that I haven't put this forward in the best fashion and that accordingly it seems unlikely - that's my fault and I apologise. The sympathy might not be advice, but it's still nice to hear when everyone's cyncial

TadghsMuffins

Pat Mustard wrote: »

You can look for general advice and you can look for legal discussion but it is not allowed to seek or give legal advice on this forum or anywhere else on boards.ie.

Thanks Pat, I wasn't aware of that, sorry for the kerfuffle.

Could you please delete this post for me then? I understand that there might be parameters for that that this doesn't fall into, but if it does please do, it's my mistake.

drunkmonkey

If she takes the line it was an accident she's in for a bad time, be truthful with the liaison officer and accept her err of judgement and promise not to do it again and she should be fine.

TadghsMuffins

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If she takes the line it was an accident she's in for a bad time, be truthful with the liaison officer and accept her err of judgement and promise not to do it again and she should be fine.

Hmm, you might be right. We'll talk it over - thanks for the input!

Pat Mustard

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Thanks Pat, I wasn't aware of that, sorry for the kerfuffle.

Could you please delete this post for me then? I understand that there might be parameters for that that this doesn't fall into, but if it does please do, it's my mistake.

It's okay, carry on.

Frynge

I would also like to suggest that maybe don't consider the security guard to be some brutish, jumped up rent a cop sort who harassed your friend. He said to your friend "I know a shoplifter when I see one" and from every ones view bar yourself and your friend, this statement is holding true. I would reckon 99% of security guards would know a genuine mistake when they come across one because quite frankly people in general are just bad a lying.

It might also be worth discussing that with your friend before any meeting with a Garda.

drunkmonkey

TadghsMuffins wrote: »

Hmm, you might be right. We'll talk it over - thanks for the input!

I could be wrong too, if it was one of my kids I'd be doing everything possible to not admit any guilt and get them away with it, might be worth one of her parents talking with the Garda involved in private, that's probably what I'd do and see could they agree something, it might involve putting the frightners on her but it would be a plan involving the parents.

Sorry if I came over a bit hard but I'm usually the one that's been shoplifted.

TadghsMuffins

Second Toughest in_the Freshers wrote: »

just start every post with 'hypothetically...' and you'll be grand.



(*I am not a lawyer)

I'm like, 90% sure that's how the law works

But I'm also not a lawyer ;p

TadghsMuffins

Frynge wrote: »

I would also like to suggest that maybe don't consider the security guard to be some brutish, jumped up rent a cop sort who harassed your friend. He said to your friend "I know a shoplifter when I see one" and from every ones view bar yourself and your friend, this statement is holding true. I would reckon 99% of security guards would know a genuine mistake when they come across one because quite frankly people in general are just bad a lying.

It might also be worth discussing that with your friend before any meeting with a Garda.

I can only apologise for poorly wording this so many times. I'm not inhuman, give me a break. I know security guards are human, my bloody uncles a security guard.

So again, I'll apologise for my wording - I'm sorry I came across so offensively.

TadghsMuffins

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I could be wrong too, if it was one of my kids I'd be doing everything possible to not admit any guilt and get them away with it, might be worth one of her parents talking with the Garda involved in private, that's probably what I'd do and see could they agree something, it might involve putting the frightners on her but it would be a plan involving the parents.

Sorry if I came over a bit hard but I'm usually the one that's been shoplifted.

Is alright mate, I think I've come across as the thickest skulled man alive right here.

That's a pretty solid idea too, definitely to be talked about - thanks!

She put lipstick in her pocket and walked out of the shop. Knowingly or not, she was a shoplifter. Talk to the liason officer as mentioned and be honest. Tell her to be completely honest and to have better decisions in future.