Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

salmocab

I recently worked in a sorting office and the mail is basically sorted into racks with every address on the route by hand. So if your address is 123 fake street it goes into a slot marked as that and it would be between 121 and 125 so the postie takes them all out and they are in the right order for him, so the post code would be of zero use to him as all he could read would be the first 3 digits that would just denote his sorting office anyway. The mail centers that use computer scanning can already read the address so don't need a new system that would just cost a fortune to get them to exactly where they are now.

Carawaystick

salmocab wrote: »

The mail centers that use computer scanning can already read the address so don't need a new system that would just cost a fortune to get them to exactly where they are now.

How do the scanners work when there's a letter for John Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere
and a letter for Jim Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere?

Irish Steve

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do the scanners work when there's a letter for John Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere
and a letter for Jim Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere?

We don't have the full details of how the An Post systems store the database, I'd be prepared to hazard a guess that if they get a new address for an area, it captures it, and does a "best guess" on the basis of the area, which may well not work as well as intended. The other possibility is that they have a feedback system from the local offices that uses that "local knowledge" which is pretty much unique to An Post, so their database gets updated with the Ancode (for lack of a better name for it) once they have worked out where the item is actually being delivered to.

It was always the case that An Post said they didn't need Eircode for their operation, and given the length of time it took to initially get the sorting system up and running (a close friend of ours was one of the main technicians on the project) I suspect that AnCode is a lot more complex than was first intended, if it was to be fit for purpose.

salmocab

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do the scanners work when there's a letter for John Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere
and a letter for Jim Byrne, Ballybeg, Ballymore, county somewhere?

I think basically the machine sends it to ballymore sort office and the postie uses local knowledge. I'm sure its not a perfect system but I suspect neither is eircode.

Banjoxed

Good ole Ireland. There'll always be someone defending the old ways in the face of change.

franer1970

NIMAN wrote: »

It does seem a bit pointless if the postal service aren't using it. Or satnavs.

There's an advert on RTE radio for eircode at the minute, about a mum trying to get her daughter to a friend's house for a birthday party, and says you should the eircode instead of vague directions.

Thing is, how exactly do we use an Eircode should a friend give it to you to get to their house?

Enter the Eircode on the Eircode Finder website https://finder.eircode.ie/#/ and it will show you the location on a map. Find that location on your sat nav or phone with Google Maps / Apple Maps and select it as your destination. Not a pain in the butt at all.

hans aus dtschl

Not sure if that's sarcasm, franer.

I can confirm that rural posties rely on local knowledge. We frequently get other people's post and vice versa when a new postie does the route and it takes them a couple of weeks to "settle down".

There's nothing wrong with the idea of a post code, just that it'd have been better if it was more legible/guessable. I can't imagine the uptake from our rural area will happen very quickly precisely because it's a string of deliberately obfuscated integers and characters.

Sam Russell

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with the idea of a post code, just that it'd have been better if it was more legible/guessable. I can't imagine the uptake from our rural area will happen very quickly precisely because it's a string of deliberately obfuscated integers and characters.

Was it An Post who asked for it to be so difficult to guess and remember or was that coming from some other source? I suspect An Post did not want to give an even break to their competition, and so cludged the design in this way.

TheChizler

Sam Russell wrote: »

Was it An Post who asked for it to be so difficult to guess and remember or was that coming from some other source? I suspect An Post did not want to give an even break to their competition, and so cludged the design in this way.

Their competition won't by cycling door to door relying on local knowledge, they'll have handheld devices to which the structure of a code won't matter.

salmocab

Sam Russell wrote: »

Was it An Post who asked for it to be so difficult to guess and remember or was that coming from some other source? I suspect An Post did not want to give an even break to their competition, and so cludged the design in this way.

An Post had nothing to do with it at all. They said from the outset they wouldn't be using it as it was of no real value to them. It was the company that was chosen to develop it that made it impossible to guess which house the last 4 digits mean as that way you need to use their database and they can monetize it.

TheChizler

salmocab wrote: »

An Post had nothing to do with it at all. They said from the outset they wouldn't be using it as it was of no real value to them. It was the company that was chosen to develop it that made it impossible to guess which house the last 4 digits mean as that way you need to use their database and they can monetize it.

A sequential string though would essentially be an abbreviated form of the postal address, and apart from being unique, would have little value as a code.

Sam Russell

salmocab wrote: »

An Post had nothing to do with it at all. They said from the outset they wouldn't be using it as it was of no real value to them. It was the company that was chosen to develop it that made it impossible to guess which house the last 4 digits mean as that way you need to use their database and they can monetize it.

I have always assumed making a revenue stream from the code was item one on the design brief. However An Post got a whack of loot from licencing the Geodirectory so I assume that maybe they got to say something about its use.

FortySeven

I always just assumed they wouldn't use it to protect their jobs due to the need for local knowledge. Can't have any old tom, dick or seamus coming along delivering mail. They might be able to do it cheaper.

But then again, I am a cynical bar steward.

Nichard Dixon

FortySeven wrote: »

I always just assumed they wouldn't use it to protect their jobs due to the need for local knowledge. Can't have any old tom, dick or seamus coming along delivering mail. They might be able to do it cheaper.

An Post have one of the cheaper stamps in Europe. Most likely Tom, Dick or Seamus would deliver the handy mail only, leaving the hard stuff to An Post and driving up the cost of this stamp.

FortySeven

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

An Post have one of the cheaper stamps in Europe. Most likely Tom, Dick or Seamus would deliver the handy mail only, leaving the hard stuff to An Post and driving up the cost of this stamp.

Didn't mean it that way. Meant as workers within anpost. It's a great opportunity to break unions. Take away specialist knowledge.

Bray Head

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

An Post have one of the cheaper stamps in Europe. Most likely Tom, Dick or Seamus would deliver the handy mail only, leaving the hard stuff to An Post and driving up the cost of this stamp.

Anyone can in theory enter the postal market but they would have to adhere to the relevant EU directive which says:

The universal service guarantees, in principle, one clearance and one delivery to the home or premises of every natural or legal person every working day, even in remote or sparsely populated areas.

No one would undertake this kind of investment. Eircodes would make it slightly easier but not by much.

AFAIK (and I'm open to correction) every European country still has only one monopoly provider of next-day postal services.

Use of eircodes should make entry to the parcel market a lot easier however as drivers will not require local knowledge.

jesseps

So how does one order stuff or get stuff sent to Ireland from abroad, seeing for me I gave people out my address in a North American format?

FIRST NAME LAST NAME
NUMBER STREET NAME
APARTMENT NUMBER
CITY/TOWN (PHIBSBOROUGH or DUBLIN) PROVINCE (LEINSTER) POSTAL CODE (DUBLIN 7 or D07 W---)
COUNTRY

I can only hope An Post, UPS, FedEX and others can figure it out.

Macy0161

FortySeven wrote: »

I always just assumed they wouldn't use it to protect their jobs due to the need for local knowledge. Can't have any old tom, dick or seamus coming along delivering mail. They might be able to do it cheaper.

But then again, I am a cynical bar steward.

iirc postcodes was announced after An Post had invested in address reading automatic sorters. This was the main reason An Post weren't in favour. Given the carry on last week, and the threat of a lock out, I doubt staff concerns were in the managements thinking!

For what it's worth, anything I've got since eircode from couriers seems to be coming through without the usual phone calls for directions. Could be coincidental, but that's my anecdotal evidence anyway.

hans aus dtschl

So it seems all are in agreement, that the benefit of randomization was a way to lock people out of using the system gratis. It had an undesirable knock-on effect of causing slower uptake.

A quick google of the UK system shows that they were bound by the 2000 mail act:
The owner for the time being of the Postcode Address File shall—
(a)maintain the File, and
(b)make the File available to any person who wishes to use it on such terms as are reasonable
Though they currently seem to allow free lookup, it looks like they're not bound by law to do so.

So on to the next question: in this age of smart devices and fast global transit, how practical is it really to hope for the monetization of post codes? Surely it's close enough to being obsolete?

TheChizler

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

So it seems all are in agreement, that the benefit of randomization was a way to lock people out of using the system gratis.

It might be a factor in discouraging people from using the database for free, but I doubt it was the primary motivation if that's what you're suggesting, there are other benefits of non sequential codes (I'm reluctant to say random because it's not truly random, maybe the first code allocated per area is truly random but the rest certainly aren't) that allow it to satisfy the tender requirements.

AngryLips

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

So it seems all are in agreement, that the benefit of randomization was a way to lock people out of using the system gratis. It had an undesirable knock-on effect of causing slower uptake.

No, the reason they are randomised is due to data protection concerns raised by the sequential coding. Eircode is randomised for the same reason there are strict rules around how companies make use of PPS numbers. It's the same arguments that crop up against national identity cards.

TheChizler

AngryLips wrote: »

No, the reason they are randomised is due to data protection concerns raised by the sequential coding. Eircode is randomised for the same reason there are strict rules around how companies make use of PPS numbers. It's the same arguments that crop up against national identity cards.

What data protection concerns?

TheChizler

TheChizler wrote: »

What data protection concerns?

Probably trying to prevent the "postcode" lottery that sometimes happens in the UK, where a whole subset of postcodes are labelled and a householder in that area is (usually) tarred with the same brush as the knacker family who have made too many insurance claims. A relative of mine who lived on a small estate that shared the same postcode prefix as the neighbouring council estate and it meant that their house insurance was higher than average. They got the post office to issue a new sub code for the estate and the cost of the insurance dropped.

seanaway

I had to look up the TV licence section's eircode to send them my direct debit info. Put my eircode on the form. They sent it back for correction -MINUS my eircode.....
Why bother...???

TheChizler

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Probably trying to prevent the "postcode" lottery that sometimes happens in the UK, where a whole subset of postcodes are labelled and a householder in that area is (usually) tarred with the same brush as the knacker family who have made too many insurance claims. A relative of mine who lived on a small estate that shared the same postcode prefix as the neighbouring council estate and it meant that their house insurance was higher than average. They got the post office to issue a new sub code for the estate and the cost of the insurance dropped.

Maybe that was a factor overall, but how is that data protection?

markpb

TheChizler wrote: »

Maybe that was a factor overall, but how is that data protection?

The Journal

The ODPC argues that a public database linking a code to a single unit residential address “could be considered as being personal data of the occupants of that dwelling”.
“In the Irish context, a person’s home address is an important part of their identity and is the second most important piece of personal information to verify a person’s identity,” the report adds.
Furthermore, Data Protection Commissioner Billy Hawkes says that, through the use of modern technology, a public postcode database can be “easily assimilated into any sort of electronic device” and “have the potential for the ready identification of sensitive information about individuals”.

TheChizler

markpb wrote: »

The Journal

Yes, but how does making them non-sequential avoid data protection issues? There's still a one to one mapping between eircode and address.

anothernight

Deleted User wrote: »

Probably trying to prevent the "postcode" lottery that sometimes happens in the UK, where a whole subset of postcodes are labelled and a householder in that area is (usually) tarred with the same brush as the knacker family who have made too many insurance claims. A relative of mine who lived on a small estate that shared the same postcode prefix as the neighbouring council estate and it meant that their house insurance was higher than average. They got the post office to issue a new sub code for the estate and the cost of the insurance dropped.

Surely this is done in Ireland already, without postcodes and all? Our insurance increased by a lot a few years ago, when some places flooded. That our house is on a slope and not near one of the places that flooded didn't matter. As far as the insurance company was concerned, we were high risk anyway because we were technically in the same town as where it happened.

Same thing also happens with car insurance premiums and what insurers perceive to be the risk of theft in an area. No postcode required, as they have your address anyway.

anothernight

anothernight wrote: »

Surely this is done in Ireland already, without postcodes and all? Our insurance increased by a lot a few years ago, when some places flooded. That our house is on a slope and not near one of the places that flooded didn't matter. As far as the insurance company was concerned, we were high risk anyway because we were technically in the same town as where it happened.

Same thing also happens with car insurance premiums and what insurers perceive to be the risk of theft in an area. No postcode required, as they have your address anyway.

Now that you have a postcode, you can challenge the insurance company with location on a map!

plodder

anothernight wrote: »

Surely this is done in Ireland already, without postcodes and all? Our insurance increased by a lot a few years ago, when some places flooded. That our house is on a slope and not near one of the places that flooded didn't matter. As far as the insurance company was concerned, we were high risk anyway because we were technically in the same town as where it happened.

Same thing also happens with car insurance premiums and what insurers perceive to be the risk of theft in an area. No postcode required, as they have your address anyway.

Of course it is. It was one of the arguments that were made after the fact, against using a hierarchical code with small areas. It's nonsense, because no company is forced to use the information in the structure, as clearly it isn't useful for all purposes (eg flood risk is clearly very different to crime risk). In those cases, you do what Eircode forces you to do now - ie. build up your own mapping/databases from other sources. And the biggest irony is that they added small area codes to their database anyway, and have been pushing its use, but of course you have to pay for the database. So, it's conceivable that insurance companies will end up using small area codes for crime risk in particular, but you just won't know about it, and ignorance is bliss