Using "Dr" for a profession you do not have a doctorate in

Is this sort of misleading advertising allowed? I came across an acupuncturist in Clare who styled himself "Dr." (sic; it should be 'Dr', if he's going to be pretentious). I naturally assumed the guy had some expertise in an area of acupuncture and thus felt a bit more confidence in his skillset.

However, when I checked, his PhD was in Agricultural Science. If the PhD were in the general area - e.g. somebody with a PhD in some specialised area of psychology practising as a councillor - it would be understandable but this seems like false advertising, or at the very least misleading advertising.

Is there any legal position on this sort of thing?

Carawaystick

If you have a phd, then you are perfectly ok calling yourself doctor.

Why do you think alternative medicine practitioners would be doctors? Who do you think would qualify them to stick needles into people?
Or give drops of water as medicine
or shine colourdy lights to cure cancer?

coylemj

If someone as prominent as Michael Smurfit can insist on styling himself as 'Dr. Smurfit' with only an honorary degree (the late Tony Ryan did the same), there wouldn't appear to be any regulation in the area.

Caveat Emptor.

MarkAnthony

Are surgeons Doctors here? I know in the UK they make a point of dropping the Dr in Favour or Mr or Ms. Must find out if they initially have the Dr salutation then drop it or they never have it.

Sorry to derail, just popped in to my head given the subject. OP might find it interesting.

Grolschevik

Yeah, surgeons use 'Mr' here too.

MarkAnthony

Grolschevik wrote: »

Yeah, surgeons use 'Mr' here too.

Do they start off as Dr's?

I'm always telling the wife to use Dr when applying for mortgages/booking hotels etc. She never listens hates it lol. (PhD not MD, or what ever the Irish version of that it.)

coylemj

Female medical consultants tend to go by Dr. xxxx

coylemj

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Do they start off as Dr's?

I'm always telling the wife to use Dr when applying for mortgages/booking hotels etc. She never listens hates it lol. (PhD not MD, or what ever the Irish version of that it.)

Bet she'll be pleased when they wake her in the middle of the night to attend to a guest having a heart attack!

MarkAnthony

coylemj wrote: »

Bet she'll be pleased when they wake her in the middle of the night to attend to a guest having a heart attack!

She's awake anyway, I snore like a mofo!

Not as bad as the Germans and the Multiple PhD salutation.

Prof. Dr. Dr. Wolfgang Dussledorf at your service.

EDIT: Was it this forum or accom and property that saw a barrister slumlord identified by the letters she insisted using after her name? Luckily some quick modding prevented what would have been a very interesting defamation case!

Wheety

Irish medical graduates generally call themselves Dr when they gain their MB BCh BAO.

That is their medical degree. The option is there to then go on and do a further 5 years of training to become a consultant. As far as I know it's only the surgeons who then drop the Dr and revert to Mr.

MarkAnthony

The English (British?) reason for it is the historic practice of surgeons not being 'medical professionals' if anyone has any interest. Red and white stripes outside a barber's is blood and bandages, hence the term barber surgeon.

Thanks for the info. OP you might have some insight now. Very well said above Caveat Emptor.

Pat Mustard

coylemj wrote: »

If someone as prominent as Michael Smurfit can insist on styling himself as 'Dr. Smurfit' with only an honorary degree (the late Tony Ryan did the same), there wouldn't appear to be any regulation in the area.

Caveat Emptor.

Not that this man ever would:

conorh91

Wheety wrote: »

That is their medical degree. The option is there to then go on and do a further 5 years of training to become a consultant. As far as I know it's only the surgeons who then drop the Dr and revert to Mr.

I'm pretty sure this is gone now. That might have been a convention in the past and slowly disappearing, but I think the emerging crop of modern surgeons tend to retain the ordinary title "Dr.".

Outside of medicine, using the title based on an honorary doctorate is pretty inappropriate, in my (plebian) opinion.

I'm not even convinced about PhDs using it.

Shouldn't it just be, 'Joe Soap, PhD'?

MarkAnthony

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this is gone now. That might have been a convention in the past and slowly disappearing, but I think the emerging crop of modern surgeons tend to retain the ordinary title "Dr.".

Outside of medicine, using the title based on an honorary doctorate is pretty inappropriate, in my (plebian) opinion.

I'm not even convinced about PhDs using it.

Shouldn't it just be, 'Joe Soap, PhD'?

Proper convention is only to use it within the field.

SpaceTime

coylemj wrote: »

Female medical consultants tend to go by Dr. xxxx

Most of them I know of go by Ms, unless they have a PhD (which, some consultants do)

?Cee?view

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this is gone now. That might have been a convention in the past and slowly disappearing, but I think the emerging crop of modern surgeons tend to retain the ordinary title "Dr.".

I've never come across a surgeon who calls themselves Dr.

I too heard the historical barber connection.

sam34

Wheety wrote: »

Irish medical graduates generally call themselves Dr when they gain their MB BCh BAO.

That is their medical degree. The option is there to then go on and do a further 5 years of training to become a consultant. As far as I know it's only the surgeons who then drop the Dr and revert to Mr.

Oh I wish it only took 5 years post-grad training to be a consultant!

Medics, male and female, use 'Dr', unless they are surgeons, in which case they use 'Mr/Ms', which is a throwback to times when those who performed surgery were skilled at it but did not have the education that traditional doctors did.

Trust me on this, I'm a doctor! :pac:

A Neurotic

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this is gone now. That might have been a convention in the past and slowly disappearing, but I think the emerging crop of modern surgeons tend to retain the ordinary title "Dr.".

No, I think the custom is still for surgical trainees here to go by Mr/Ms once they gain membership to the Royal College of Surgeons, which would be one of the steps on the way to training as a consultant.

coylemj wrote: »

Female medical consultants tend to go by Dr. xxxx

SpaceTime wrote: »

Most of them I know of go by Ms, unless they have a PhD (which, some consultants do)

Medical consultants go by Dr, and surgical ones by Mr/Ms.

looksee

coylemj wrote: »

Female medical consultants tend to go by Dr. xxxx

Is there some kind of point to that specific observation?

kupus

Why does Ryanair ask for the Dr part of their flyer info section?

Victor

1. Flattery
2. It's handy to know if you have a medical doctor on board if there is an emergency.

challengemaster

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this is gone now. That might have been a convention in the past and slowly disappearing, but I think the emerging crop of modern surgeons tend to retain the ordinary title "Dr.".

Outside of medicine, using the title based on an honorary doctorate is pretty inappropriate, in my (plebian) opinion.

I'm not even convinced about PhDs using it.

Shouldn't it just be, 'Joe Soap, PhD'?

This annoys me. This annoys me because PhD's (and the derivatives) are the ONLY ones that actually should be referred to as Dr. - After all, that's what the degree stands for. Doctor of Philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title)

Though they are holders of bachelor-level degrees, history has allowed the use of the title doctor by physicians, however, it is recognised that it is in essence an honorary or courtesy title.

ballsymchugh

challengemaster wrote: »

This annoys me. This annoys me because PhD's (and the derivatives) are the ONLY ones that actually should be referred to as Dr. - After all, that's what the degree stands for. Doctor of Philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title)

hmmm... do you have a PhD?!

IMO, titles should only be used when in conjunction with the area in which they are gained. people with horticultural PhDs like former minister Michael Woods can feck off unless he's giving a speech on something horticultural.

in medicine, Dr changes to Mr/Ms when you get fellowship to the college of surgeons.

Big_G

I tend to agree that PhD's should be the only ones calling themselves doctor. It's been hijacked by some of the professions and is honorrific. You mightn't agree ballsy but I've said it now. It really irks me when people address me as 'dentist' because they don't know that a persons profession is not 'doctor' but 'physician'. But maybe I'm just a pedant.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Nothing worse than some random lad using Dr, in his title when no one can verify it.
Especially online.

SpaceTime

A Neurotic wrote: »

Medical consultants go by Dr, and surgical ones by Mr/Ms.

I've encountered two called Dr

---

in surgery and it related to their PhD

SpaceTime

Also if your last name is love, there's an extra incentive to get a PhD

conorh91

challengemaster wrote: »

This annoys me. This annoys me because PhD's (and the derivatives) are the ONLY ones that actually should be referred to as Dr. - After all, that's what the degree stands for. Doctor of Philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title)

I would take a more practical approach than a semantic one.

It is of huge importance that medical doctors should be readily identifiable, and that by and large, they should tend to be identifiable by a universal prefix.

It is of considerably less importance that doctors of theology, women's studies, and statistics should be readily identifiable. Unless of course one wants to avoid their company at a conference or during a long bus journey, which perhaps has some utility.

seamus

Is there any legal protection here? If the guy is calling himself "Doctor" and "prescribing" homeopathy, then it's easy to argue that he's pretending to be a doctor of medicine.

While anyone with a Ph.D. can call themselves "Doctor", is there anything specific in relation to purporting to be medically qualified, in the same way that someone purporting to be a solicitor can get in trouble?

The only recent case I can find is this: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/more-complaints-over-cork-man-as-bogus-doctor-jailed-97009.html

But that appears to be a conviction for reckless endangerment and assault rather than specifically pretending to be a doctor.

And I also found this old English Act, but it probably doesn't apply any more:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1858/en/act/pub/0090/print.html

40. Any person who shall wilfully and falsely pretend to be or take or use the name or title of a physician, doctor of medicine, licentiate in medicine and surgery, bachelor of medicine, surgeon, general practitioner or apothecary, or any name, title, addition, or description implying that he is registered under this Act, or that he is recognized by law as a physician, or surgeon, or licentiate in medicine and surgery, or a practitioner in medicine, or an apothecary, shall, upon a summary conviction for any such offence, pay a sum not exceeding twenty pounds.

Apothecary :pac:

ballsymchugh

Big_G wrote: »

I tend to agree that PhD's should be the only ones calling themselves doctor. It's been hijacked by some of the professions and is honorrific. You mightn't agree ballsy but I've said it now. It really irks me when people address me as 'dentist' because they don't know that a persons profession is not 'doctor' but 'physician'. But maybe I'm just a pedant.

no, i fully agree. a long time ago, a young dentist applying for a job where i worked insisted on being addressed as 'Dr'. he didn't get the job.

Carawaystick

Carawaystick wrote: »

If you have a phd, then you are perfectly ok calling yourself doctor.

If your PhD is in pig farming and you're using it as a qualification when advertising a service that treats somebody's body, I disagree.

"Dr Mick Murphy, acupuncturist" would imply, to most people, that the doctorate is in that area. Leaving aside the obvious insecurity and pretensions, it gives a misleading impression of the degree of expertise behind the advertised service.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why do you think alternative medicine practitioners would be doctors? Who do you think would qualify them to stick needles into people? Or give drops of water as medicine or shine colourdy lights to cure cancer?

PhDs in acupuncture ("Doctor - Psychology: Health & Wellness Psychology"; "Doctor of Psychology - Clinical Specialization", etc)

MarkAnthony

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Proper convention is only to use it within the field.

Exactly. While we just have to suffer the insecure knobs who insist that their PhD is some pointless, ego-satisfying, underpaid and definitely not tenure-track hobby requires the entire world to address them as "Doctor", it's when they use the title to give a misleading impression as to their training and capability in an area beyond their PhD that the knob becomes shady, in my view.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

1. Flattery
2. It's handy to know if you have a medical doctor on board if there is an emergency.

Except, when they ask for "Dr Murphy" who, it then transpires, has his doctorate in 'The role of papyrus in Early Irish manuscripts' it's doubtful he'll be of much use. :P

Grolschevik

Physicians may also be increasingly unwilling to draw attention to themselves in such circumstances for fear of being sued! :-) :pac:

Stanford

Please allow me to try to clarify the situation if I can.

The PhD is regarded as the highest earned academic degree which can be awarded by a University. A person holding such a degree is entitled to call themselves 'Dr'" amongst fellow academics but it is considered to be bordering on misrepresentation to call oneself Dr. with regards to another profession e.g. the guy with the PhD in Pig Farming practicising Acupuncture under the title 'Dr.' is incorrectly giving the impression that his PhD expertise relates to Pig Farming which is illegal under the Tort of Passing Off (i..e alluding to have an expertise which you do not have).

Honorary PhDs are awarded to those who are deemed to have given excellent service in the Arts, Sciences, Humanities and have no value academically, it is considered crass to use the title Dr if your doctorate is honorary and you do not possess a PhD earned by research.

Finally medical doctors are allowed to use the term "Dr" following an old convention as, strictly speaking, they are not conferred with a PhD on graduation. However if a medical doctor undertakes further academic research he/she will be awarded the medical title equivelant of MD. As usual our US colleagues have misunderstood the whole thing and now bestow their medical students on graduation with the MD title, Finally beware the ultimate asshole of all who refers themselves as the double whammy Dr. Joe Blogs, PhD. Either Dr. J. Blogs or J. Blogs PhD is fine, both together indicate ignorance and arrogance of which there is much about.

ballsymchugh

https://twitter.com/KennedySinger

anyone with medical questions should go here for the laugh....

Gongoozler

seamus wrote: »

Is there any legal protection here? If the guy is calling himself "Doctor" and "prescribing" homeopathy, then it's easy to argue that he's pretending to be a doctor of medicine.

While anyone with a Ph.D. can call themselves "Doctor", is there anything specific in relation to purporting to be medically qualified, in the same way that someone purporting to be a solicitor can get in trouble?

Anyone can call themselves Dr. There's nothing to stop you or me from doing it. It's in the way you represent yourself, if you're leading people to believe you're a medical practitioner and you're not then that's not ok. If you're saying you have a medical qualification and you don't then that's not ok. If you actually try to treat someone as a doctor, that's not ok. Just using the term Dr is nowhere near a concern to the likes of the Medical Council.

ambro25

The legal terminology is 'protected titles', which exist for all manner of medical and non-medical suitably-qualified and -registered professionals and are ensconsed in a variety of (frequently profession-specific or -related) Statutes.

E.g I am a registered patent agent and a registered trade mark agent, both of which are protected titles in Ireland (the 'attorney' variant is also protected in the UK).

Not sure what the legal position is in Ireland, but in the UK the protected title is "doctor of medicine" ("doctor" in and of itself is not protected).

Gongoozler

Doctor is not a protected title in Ireland

Gyalist

Deleted User wrote: »

However, when I checked, his PhD was in Agricultural Science. If the PhD were in the general area - e.g. somebody with a PhD in some specialised area of psychology practising as a councillor - it would be understandable but this seems like false advertising, or at the very least misleading advertising.

I would hope that if my elected local government representative had academic and professional qualifications in psychology that he would have the good sense to keep the two roles separate.

johnnyskeleton

conorh91 wrote: »

It is of considerably less importance that doctors of theology, women's studies, and statistics should be readily identifiable. Unless of course one wants to avoid their company at a conference or during a long bus journey, which perhaps has some utility.

Maybe we should go back to calling medical doctors physicians. The word doctor come from teaching or study. Remember to ask if there is a physician in the house in case of medical occurences, because a doctor of theology will come in handy only in existential or spiritual emergencies.

One thing Ive wondered about though, should the Judge of the Court of Appeal be Dr. Justice Hogan instead of Mr?

johnnyskeleton

Stanford wrote: »

Honorary PhDs are awarded to those who are deemed to have given excellent service in the Arts, Sciences, Humanities and have no value academically, it is considered crass to use the title Dr if your doctorate is honorary and you do not possess a PhD earned by research.

Thats something thats always puzzled me. I mean if a university gives a Judge or a TD or even a lowly lawyer an honorary doctorate for writing good judgments, passing insightful laws or advancing legal advocacy, surely that is more valuable than a doctorate from spending years researching a single topic? I mean clearly it is awarded on merit in both instances, but the merit of the honorary doctorate is exceptional.

?Cee?view

Stanford wrote: »

... the Tort of Passing Off (i..e alluding to have an expertise which you do not have...

Deliciously ironic

riffmongous

conorh91 wrote: »

I would take a more practical approach than a semantic one.

It is of huge importance that medical doctors should be readily identifiable, and that by and large, they should tend to be identifiable by a universal prefix.

It is of considerably less importance that doctors of theology, women's studies, and statistics should be readily identifiable. Unless of course one wants to avoid their company at a conference or during a long bus journey, which perhaps has some utility.

Does this really hold up though? Medical practitioners arent required to go around wearing an armband or anything that identifies them during their day to day life where they are more likely to be needed than when they are staying at a hotel

riffmongous

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Thats something thats always puzzled me. I mean if a university gives a Judge or a TD or even a lowly lawyer an honorary doctorate for writing good judgments, passing insightful laws or advancing legal advocacy, surely that is more valuable than a doctorate from spending years researching a single topic? I mean clearly it is awarded on merit in both instances, but the merit of the honorary doctorate is exceptional.

Not academically though, a regular doctorate will be from years of research and results and should have some sort of new knowledge, which makes it special

MarkAnthony

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Thats something thats always puzzled me. I mean if a university gives a Judge or a TD or even a lowly lawyer an honorary doctorate for writing good judgments, passing insightful laws or advancing legal advocacy, surely that is more valuable than a doctorate from spending years researching a single topic? I mean clearly it is awarded on merit in both instances, but the merit of the honorary doctorate is exceptional.

It's a bit different in the legal field I think. How many top academics in law have PhDs? They certainly aren't used much if they are. Seems to me some of the best barristers don't even take silk.

conorh91

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

One thing Ive wondered about though, should the Judge of the Court of Appeal be Dr. Justice Hogan instead of Mr?

I think the general rule with all titles is that they are used in order of rank as opposed to being blended, so for example a judge of the Superior Courts who has been awarded a PhD might be referred to as Mr. Justice Dr. Hogan/ Barrett/ McMahon etc.

Well, that's a guess. Unfortunately the former Mr Justice Carney didn't earn a PhD, so nobody seems to have been instructed precisely on the etiquette.
(miaow)

Peregrinus

conorh91 wrote: »

I think the general rule with all titles is that they are used in order of rank as opposed to being blended, so for example a judge of the Superior Courts who has been awarded a PhD might be referred to as Mr. Justice Dr. Hogan/ Barrett/ McMahon etc.

Well, that's a guess. Unfortunately the former Mr Justice Carney didn't earn a PhD, so nobody seems to have been instructed precisely on the etiquette.
(miaow)

I think the convention is that the "Mr Justice" title is only used in the professional judicial context, and a the title "Doctor" for someone with a Ph D (or "Professor" for somebody with a university post which carries that title) is only ever used in the academic context. So ne'er the twain shall meet.

Judge Carney doesn't have a Ph D but he has a various times been (and for all I know may still be) an adjunct professor. But he was only ever Mr. Justice Carney.

JuliusCaesar

Deleted User wrote: »

If your PhD is in pig farming and you're using it as a qualification when advertising a service that treats somebody's body, I disagree.

"Dr Mick Murphy, acupuncturist" would imply, to most people, that the doctorate is in that area. Leaving aside the obvious insecurity and pretensions, it gives a misleading impression of the degree of expertise behind the advertised service.




PhDs in acupuncture ("Doctor - Psychology: Health & Wellness Psychology"; "Doctor of Psychology - Clinical Specialization", etc)

Fuaranach, are you saying that psychology is not a legitimate science? Are you equating psychology with acupuncture and other non-evidence-based health treatments?

:eek: unbelievable.

conorh91

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think the convention is that the "Mr Justice" title is only used in the professional judicial context, and a the title "Doctor" for someone with a Ph D (or "Professor" for somebody with a university post which carries that title) is only ever used in the academic context. So ne'er the twain shall meet.

There is no such convention. All teaching judges, as far as I can see, use the honorific in their academic contexts. Both titles would be appropriate if you were introducing the judge at an academic event, or they were publishing a paper in a journal, or appearing on a list of speakers, there are plenty of examples.

Anyway, it's not a big deal considering the small number of individuals for whom this has any practical application.

johnnyskeleton

riffmongous wrote: »

Not academically though, a regular doctorate will be from years of research and results and should have some sort of new knowledge, which makes it special

Well if a poet gets an honourary doctorate for writing good poetry, surely thats adding more new kjowledge than the person who reads his poetry and critiques it?