Using "Dr" for a profession you do not have a doctorate in

10-08-2015 02:39PM #1

Is this sort of misleading advertising allowed? I came across an acupuncturist in Clare who styled himself "Dr." (sic; it should be 'Dr', if he's going to be pretentious). I naturally assumed the guy had some expertise in an area of acupuncture and thus felt a bit more confidence in his skillset.

However, when I checked, his PhD was in Agricultural Science. If the PhD were in the general area - e.g. somebody with a PhD in some specialised area of psychology practising as a councillor - it would be understandable but this seems like false advertising, or at the very least misleading advertising.

Is there any legal position on this sort of thing?

Carawaystick · 10-08-2015 02:52PM

If you have a phd, then you are perfectly ok calling yourself doctor.

Why do you think alternative medicine practitioners would be doctors? Who do you think would qualify them to stick needles into people?
Or give drops of water as medicine
or shine colourdy lights to cure cancer?

coylemj · 10-08-2015 02:56PM

If someone as prominent as Michael Smurfit can insist on styling himself as 'Dr. Smurfit' with only an honorary degree (the late Tony Ryan did the same), there wouldn't appear to be any regulation in the area.

Caveat Emptor.

MarkAnthony · 10-08-2015 02:56PM

Are surgeons Doctors here? I know in the UK they make a point of dropping the Dr in Favour or Mr or Ms. Must find out if they initially have the Dr salutation then drop it or they never have it.

Sorry to derail, just popped in to my head given the subject. OP might find it interesting.

Grolschevik · 10-08-2015 02:59PM

Yeah, surgeons use 'Mr' here too.

MarkAnthony · 10-08-2015 03:01PM

Grolschevik wrote: »

Yeah, surgeons use 'Mr' here too.

Do they start off as Dr's?

I'm always telling the wife to use Dr when applying for mortgages/booking hotels etc. She never listens hates it lol. (PhD not MD, or what ever the Irish version of that it.)

coylemj · 10-08-2015 03:01PM

Female medical consultants tend to go by Dr. xxxx

coylemj · 10-08-2015 03:02PM

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Do they start off as Dr's?

I'm always telling the wife to use Dr when applying for mortgages/booking hotels etc. She never listens hates it lol. (PhD not MD, or what ever the Irish version of that it.)

Bet she'll be pleased when they wake her in the middle of the night to attend to a guest having a heart attack!

MarkAnthony · 10-08-2015 03:06PM

coylemj wrote: »

Bet she'll be pleased when they wake her in the middle of the night to attend to a guest having a heart attack!

She's awake anyway, I snore like a mofo!

Not as bad as the Germans and the Multiple PhD salutation.

Prof. Dr. Dr. Wolfgang Dussledorf at your service.

EDIT: Was it this forum or accom and property that saw a barrister slumlord identified by the letters she insisted using after her name? Luckily some quick modding prevented what would have been a very interesting defamation case!

Wheety · 10-08-2015 03:14PM

Irish medical graduates generally call themselves Dr when they gain their MB BCh BAO.

That is their medical degree. The option is there to then go on and do a further 5 years of training to become a consultant. As far as I know it's only the surgeons who then drop the Dr and revert to Mr.

MarkAnthony · 10-08-2015 03:20PM

The English (British?) reason for it is the historic practice of surgeons not being 'medical professionals' if anyone has any interest. Red and white stripes outside a barber's is blood and bandages, hence the term barber surgeon.

Thanks for the info. OP you might have some insight now. Very well said above Caveat Emptor.

Pat Mustard · 10-08-2015 05:07PM

coylemj wrote: »

If someone as prominent as Michael Smurfit can insist on styling himself as 'Dr. Smurfit' with only an honorary degree (the late Tony Ryan did the same), there wouldn't appear to be any regulation in the area.

Caveat Emptor.

Not that this man ever would:

conorh91 · 10-08-2015 05:18PM

Wheety wrote: »

That is their medical degree. The option is there to then go on and do a further 5 years of training to become a consultant. As far as I know it's only the surgeons who then drop the Dr and revert to Mr.

I'm pretty sure this is gone now. That might have been a convention in the past and slowly disappearing, but I think the emerging crop of modern surgeons tend to retain the ordinary title "Dr.".

Outside of medicine, using the title based on an honorary doctorate is pretty inappropriate, in my (plebian) opinion.

I'm not even convinced about PhDs using it.

Shouldn't it just be, 'Joe Soap, PhD'?

MarkAnthony · 10-08-2015 06:16PM

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this is gone now. That might have been a convention in the past and slowly disappearing, but I think the emerging crop of modern surgeons tend to retain the ordinary title "Dr.".

Outside of medicine, using the title based on an honorary doctorate is pretty inappropriate, in my (plebian) opinion.

I'm not even convinced about PhDs using it.

Shouldn't it just be, 'Joe Soap, PhD'?

Proper convention is only to use it within the field.

SpaceTime · 10-08-2015 06:18PM

coylemj wrote: »

Female medical consultants tend to go by Dr. xxxx

Most of them I know of go by Ms, unless they have a PhD (which, some consultants do)

?Cee?view · 10-08-2015 06:22PM

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this is gone now. That might have been a convention in the past and slowly disappearing, but I think the emerging crop of modern surgeons tend to retain the ordinary title "Dr.".

I've never come across a surgeon who calls themselves Dr.

I too heard the historical barber connection.

sam34 · 10-08-2015 06:28PM

Wheety wrote: »

Irish medical graduates generally call themselves Dr when they gain their MB BCh BAO.

That is their medical degree. The option is there to then go on and do a further 5 years of training to become a consultant. As far as I know it's only the surgeons who then drop the Dr and revert to Mr.

Oh I wish it only took 5 years post-grad training to be a consultant!

Medics, male and female, use 'Dr', unless they are surgeons, in which case they use 'Mr/Ms', which is a throwback to times when those who performed surgery were skilled at it but did not have the education that traditional doctors did.

Trust me on this, I'm a doctor! :pac:

A Neurotic · 10-08-2015 06:28PM

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this is gone now. That might have been a convention in the past and slowly disappearing, but I think the emerging crop of modern surgeons tend to retain the ordinary title "Dr.".

No, I think the custom is still for surgical trainees here to go by Mr/Ms once they gain membership to the Royal College of Surgeons, which would be one of the steps on the way to training as a consultant.

coylemj wrote: »

Female medical consultants tend to go by Dr. xxxx

SpaceTime wrote: »

Most of them I know of go by Ms, unless they have a PhD (which, some consultants do)

Medical consultants go by Dr, and surgical ones by Mr/Ms.

looksee · 10-08-2015 06:33PM

coylemj wrote: »

Female medical consultants tend to go by Dr. xxxx

Is there some kind of point to that specific observation?

kupus · 10-08-2015 06:47PM

Why does Ryanair ask for the Dr part of their flyer info section?

Victor · 10-08-2015 07:36PM

1. Flattery
2. It's handy to know if you have a medical doctor on board if there is an emergency.

challengemaster · 10-08-2015 07:47PM

conorh91 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this is gone now. That might have been a convention in the past and slowly disappearing, but I think the emerging crop of modern surgeons tend to retain the ordinary title "Dr.".

Outside of medicine, using the title based on an honorary doctorate is pretty inappropriate, in my (plebian) opinion.

I'm not even convinced about PhDs using it.

Shouldn't it just be, 'Joe Soap, PhD'?

This annoys me. This annoys me because PhD's (and the derivatives) are the ONLY ones that actually should be referred to as Dr. - After all, that's what the degree stands for. Doctor of Philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title)

Though they are holders of bachelor-level degrees, history has allowed the use of the title doctor by physicians, however, it is recognised that it is in essence an honorary or courtesy title.

ballsymchugh · 10-08-2015 07:56PM

challengemaster wrote: »

This annoys me. This annoys me because PhD's (and the derivatives) are the ONLY ones that actually should be referred to as Dr. - After all, that's what the degree stands for. Doctor of Philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title)

hmmm... do you have a PhD?!

IMO, titles should only be used when in conjunction with the area in which they are gained. people with horticultural PhDs like former minister Michael Woods can feck off unless he's giving a speech on something horticultural.

in medicine, Dr changes to Mr/Ms when you get fellowship to the college of surgeons.

Big_G · 10-08-2015 08:26PM

I tend to agree that PhD's should be the only ones calling themselves doctor. It's been hijacked by some of the professions and is honorrific. You mightn't agree ballsy but I've said it now. It really irks me when people address me as 'dentist' because they don't know that a persons profession is not 'doctor' but 'physician'. But maybe I'm just a pedant.

Dr Turk Turkelton · 10-08-2015 08:32PM

Nothing worse than some random lad using Dr, in his title when no one can verify it.
Especially online.

SpaceTime · 10-08-2015 08:53PM

A Neurotic wrote: »

Medical consultants go by Dr, and surgical ones by Mr/Ms.

I've encountered two called Dr

in surgery and it related to their PhD

SpaceTime · 10-08-2015 08:54PM

Also if your last name is love, there's an extra incentive to get a PhD

conorh91 · 10-08-2015 09:16PM

challengemaster wrote: »

This annoys me. This annoys me because PhD's (and the derivatives) are the ONLY ones that actually should be referred to as Dr. - After all, that's what the degree stands for. Doctor of Philosophy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title)

I would take a more practical approach than a semantic one.

It is of huge importance that medical doctors should be readily identifiable, and that by and large, they should tend to be identifiable by a universal prefix.

It is of considerably less importance that doctors of theology, women's studies, and statistics should be readily identifiable. Unless of course one wants to avoid their company at a conference or during a long bus journey, which perhaps has some utility.

seamus · 10-08-2015 09:19PM

Is there any legal protection here? If the guy is calling himself "Doctor" and "prescribing" homeopathy, then it's easy to argue that he's pretending to be a doctor of medicine.

While anyone with a Ph.D. can call themselves "Doctor", is there anything specific in relation to purporting to be medically qualified, in the same way that someone purporting to be a solicitor can get in trouble?

The only recent case I can find is this: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/more-complaints-over-cork-man-as-bogus-doctor-jailed-97009.html

But that appears to be a conviction for reckless endangerment and assault rather than specifically pretending to be a doctor.

And I also found this old English Act, but it probably doesn't apply any more:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1858/en/act/pub/0090/print.html

40. Any person who shall wilfully and falsely pretend to be or take or use the name or title of a physician, doctor of medicine, licentiate in medicine and surgery, bachelor of medicine, surgeon, general practitioner or apothecary, or any name, title, addition, or description implying that he is registered under this Act, or that he is recognized by law as a physician, or surgeon, or licentiate in medicine and surgery, or a practitioner in medicine, or an apothecary, shall, upon a summary conviction for any such offence, pay a sum not exceeding twenty pounds.

Apothecary :pac:

ballsymchugh · 10-08-2015 09:24PM

Big_G wrote: »

I tend to agree that PhD's should be the only ones calling themselves doctor. It's been hijacked by some of the professions and is honorrific. You mightn't agree ballsy but I've said it now. It really irks me when people address me as 'dentist' because they don't know that a persons profession is not 'doctor' but 'physician'. But maybe I'm just a pedant.

no, i fully agree. a long time ago, a young dentist applying for a job where i worked insisted on being addressed as 'Dr'. he didn't get the job.

10-08-2015 09:24PM

Carawaystick wrote: »

If you have a phd, then you are perfectly ok calling yourself doctor.

If your PhD is in pig farming and you're using it as a qualification when advertising a service that treats somebody's body, I disagree.

"Dr Mick Murphy, acupuncturist" would imply, to most people, that the doctorate is in that area. Leaving aside the obvious insecurity and pretensions, it gives a misleading impression of the degree of expertise behind the advertised service.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why do you think alternative medicine practitioners would be doctors? Who do you think would qualify them to stick needles into people? Or give drops of water as medicine or shine colourdy lights to cure cancer?

PhDs in acupuncture ("Doctor - Psychology: Health & Wellness Psychology"; "Doctor of Psychology - Clinical Specialization", etc)

Using "Dr" for a profession you do not have a doctorate in

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