Change of use

PSXDupe

Guys

Does anyone know what is involve in changing the use on your firearm cert.

I originally just done clay and target but now am thinking about a bit of hunting. Do I need to complete the application again. Can't seem to find anything online about this.

Thanks

k31

Hi, One of the requirements for the granting of a firearm certificate is that you show good reason for having that particular firearm. On your original FCA1 application form you ticked clay pigeon shooting as that reason and your Superintendent accepted that as good reason and granted your application to have in your possession and use that particular firearm. I have never personally seen a certificate for a shotgun which specified that the firearm could only be used for clay pigeon shooting or hunting. Provided you have permission from a farmer or land owner to shoot game or vermin on there land I don't believe you will have any problems from the Gardaí. Good shooting.

aaakev

You dont need to do anything lad just shoot away

PSXDupe

Thats wierd.

I had only applied from my .22 licence and put down on the application Target & Hunting. The local FO rang me and told me because I wasn't a member of local gun club and didn't have land owners permission that my application might be refused even though I am a member of Courtlough shooting grounds.

She said she would put the application thru with Target only. She told me that when I become a member of the local gun club that it would cost to apply for a change of use on my .22

I have since received my licence and my rifle but am now going to join the local gun club and know a couple of farmer around that should allow me shoot on their lands.

Might need to pay the FO a visit to see what she is talking about and ask her how I am meant to apply for a change of use.

Cass

On the FCA1 you tick whichever box is applicable. Target, hunting or both.

If you picked one or the other then the license was granted under that condition. If you did not declare hunting as a reason then the license was only granted for clays. In order for them to grant it for hunting also you may have been required to submit proof of membership to a club or land permissions.

So technically you're not okay to shoot away. After saying that i don't see any Garda giving you grief about shooting game/vermin once you are licensed. If it's bothering you that much i'd say give acall to your local FO, and ask a few questions. Theoretical ones. See what you get as an answer.

As for amending your license i've never seen anything on the FCA1 or FCA2 to allow for it.

aaakev

Cass wrote: »

On the FCA1 you tick whichever box is applicable. Target, hunting or both.

If you picked one or the other then the license was granted under that condition. If you did not declare hunting as a reason then the license was only granted for clays. In order for them to grant it for hunting also you may have been required to submit proof of membership to a club or land permissions.

So technically you're not okay to shoot away. After saying that i don't see any Garda giving you grief about shooting game/vermin once you are licensed. If it's bothering you that much i'd say give acall to your local FO, and ask a few questions. Theoretical ones. See what you get as an answer.

As for amending your license i've never seen anything on the FCA1 or FCA2 to allow for it.

Unless his license specifically states target shooting only he is fine to shoot away. As long as he is still a member of the target shooting club his reasons have not changed and he is just getting more use out of the gun and as long as that is within the law he is fine

meathstevie

At least that particular aspect of Irish firearms legislation is very simple; unless the granting authority has imposed any restrictions in the granting conditions you can use your firearm for any lawful activity.

Cass

aaakev wrote: »

Unless his license specifically states target shooting only he is fine to shoot away.

I don't think so.

As long as he is still a member of the target shooting club his reasons have not changed

There is the key phrase.

His reason for getting the gun was clay pigeon shooting. On the FCA1 in section 4.1 you have three options.

• Hunting
• Target shooting on Authorised range
• Target shooting on Authroised pistol/rifle club

The section asks you to tick as appropriate. IOW tick whatever boxes are applicable to you. It is not one choice only. You may tick one, two or all three. It's the reason why you provide land permission, range membership details, etc. further on in sections 4.3 & 5.2. I always tick hunting and target shooting on an authorised range. This covers me for both.

Also section 4.2 says underneath that a separate sheet of paper must be provided with an explanation/details of why this type of gun is needed. So if the OP ticked target shooting only, gave details of an authorised range or clay pigeon range (which funnily enough doesn't qualify as an authorised range) then the Super & FO would have processed and granted the firearms license based on the fact the OP wanted to shoot clays only.

and he is just getting more use out of the gun and as long as that is within the law he is fine

meathstevie wrote: »

At least that particular aspect of Irish firearms legislation is very simple; unless the granting authority has imposed any restrictions in the granting conditions you can use your firearm for any lawful activity.

These two points are basically the same so i'll answer them together.

The absence of a condition on your grant letter does not mean it's a "free for all".

If it was sought (the license) for clays only, and as said above, he ticked targets only then he did not apply to have or use the gun for hunting. So the Super does not have to grant the license with the condition that it only be used for clays as the OP has declared he only wants it for such already.

As i said above this is really just a debate on the finer details of the law and how it should be and is applied. I highly doubt the OP would face an charges for using the gun for hunting is he applied for it for targets only.

However Here is a scenario for you. If i don't tick target shooting on my FCA1, but only tick hunting. Can i do target shooting with the firearm? I'm not a member of a range and can provide no membership details, but i want to shoot targets. Would the Super grant the license for both hunting and targets?

aaakev

I understand what your saying but i think your wrong. there is nothing to say you can but there is also nothing to say you cannot.

All my guns are down for hunting, i have land permissions for same but iv shot a good few targets and a few competitions on ranges and shot clays in the summer when there was no open season for game birds

Cass wrote: »

However Here is a scenario for you. If i don't tick target shooting on my FCA1, but only tick hunting. Can i do target shooting with the firearm? I'm not a member of a range and can provide no membership details, but i want to shoot targets. Would the Super grant the license for both hunting and targets?

Im of the opinion you can and iv never heard anything to the contrary until now, i remember this being asked a few time over the years and its always been the same

Cass

I'm not claiming what i'm saying is right, so i cannot be wrong.:D I am saying that the way the FCA1 is done, the way you get multiple choice reasons for wanting the gun, and the way the firearms act says you must have good reason all point to you declaring all or any possible reason for wanting the gun.

As i said above the absence of the law saying something cannot be done does not mean it can be.

My example above was poorly explained so sorry for that. What i meant was you wouldn't get a gun for target shooting without membership to a range. For example my F-Class rifle. When i applied for it i put down target shooting only. No way am i carrying that pig up a mountain or across fields. It was granted but as i did not tick the box for hunting, gave no land permissions, and no copies of my deer licenses to show good reason for wanting it for hunting it would be target shooting only. After a while i decide to try the gun out at deer stalking. I have no conditions on my license saying that it cannot be used for hunting but i also did not request it on my application. So as far as An Gardaí and the Super are concerned i'm only using it for targets. I wonder would i have been granted it if i wanted it for both targets and hunting? The answer is probably yes, but you get (i hope) what i'm trying to say.

This strikes me as one of those "sure you'll be grand" type situations.

The FCA1 asks why you want the type of gun you are seeking to license. It specifically asks for a separate piece off paper explaining your reasons for wanting it. If you want it for clays/target shooting, but think at any point you might want to do target shooting (however remote the possibility of you doing it might be) then tick the box for target shooting. If you are asked (and you most likely will be) where your membership details are then you simply say (or on the separate piece of paper as demanded by section 4.1 of the FCA1 state) that you are not a member of any range, but intend to shoot in any open competitions held on ranges. This does not require membership to that range and does not give you membership privileges (including card, insurances, access to range facilities, etc).


Like i've said form the start i doubt if an Garda would try and charge or prosecute a person for hunting with a firearm they originally licensed for target shooting. I mean how could they because the license and other details that the Garda could find out talking to someone in a field/roadside would be limited. IOW looking at your license only says whether the gun on the license is the gun in your possession, that you have authorisation for a mod or not, and is it in date. Only PULSE would give more details but what Garda would go back and check PULSE if a license says everything appears to be fine?

It's an awkward situation, and just to on the cautious side of things i'd refrain from telling the OP to lash away. It's the reason giving legal advice is banned on Baords. If the OP went out hunting, was stopped by a Garda, the Garda done his/her due diligence and found the license to be granted for target shooting only, that there was no mention of hunting, and decided to try and push for charges for breach of license then it's the OP in the hot seat and not us.

Again the possibilities of this may be so slim as to be laughable, but still the excuse of "sure the lads on Boards told me i'm fine" wouldn't be worth a crap.

aaakev

Ah yeah i get what you're saying. I think its so unlikely I wouldn't give it a second thought myself!

Cass

From your lips to God's ears.

I used to be the same a few years ago. I thought what reason you gave for the license was the "primary" reason, but once the license was issued (without any conditions) that i was free to use it as i saw fit. Perhaps i was right then, i don't know. However someone pointed out to me, what i've posted above, and that that if unsure or just want to cover all bases tick hunting, targets, etc. that way no matter what you use it for you are covered as the license has been granted for all the reasons you cited.

aaakev

Yeah no harm if your applying and can cover all the basis with club membership and land permission, makes perfect sense but I'm not a member of any range or club and don't plan to be either but ill still shoot some clays and the odd bit of targets if invited by a mate.

Cass

I know what you mean about range membership.

If i were in that position i'd do as i said above. Apply for hunting and tick target shooting. If they ask for range membership you point out that while not a member of a range you intend to shoot targets at any open competitions of which there are 20 or so a year in the various ranges.

It'll do two things. They'll either pass it for those reasons and you can be sure you're covered. Or they'll say with no membership target shooting is not a valid reason. At which point you'll ask what happens when you attend an open competition at a range. If they say the license covers you for that then i'd class that as being cover.

Now the firearms act makes it the responsibility of the applicant to now only apply for the right license, but to know if an error on the Gardaí behalf makes the license invalid, moot or someone not legal. So while their say so is a bonus it's still not 100%.

Some crock of crap if you ask me, but once you've covered all your bases to the best that you can possibly do i'd class that as being right way.

daragh8008

Cass wrote: »

I know what you mean about range membership.

If i were in that position i'd do as i said above. Apply for hunting and tick target shooting. If they ask for range membership you point out that while not a member of a range you intend to shoot targets at any open competitions of which there are 20 or so a year in the various ranges.

Maybe I misunderstand this but it seems to me that the consent for both is implicit given that you can only zero your rifle at a range shooting at targets. If you weren't allowed to do both then they probably couldn't grant you a cert to hunt as they would know that your rifle wasn't zeroed and you couldn't be sure where your bullet would land. Therefore to hunt you must be able to shoot at targets too. To take the idea further, I don't recall reading anywhere that one type of cert is above another in terms of permissible activities, (as long as that activity is lawful for that firearm) so the consent must surely extend to target shooters going hunting?

Vegeta

daragh8008 wrote: »

Maybe I misunderstand this but it seems to me that the consent for both is implicit

I would never, ever, assume this with our firearms legislation. What makes logical sense and what you could be prosecuted for are often worlds apart. I wouldn't like to be the test case that's or sure.

Cass

On the FCA1 in section 4.2 it asks what the purpose of the firearm will be. You have four options:

• Hunting
• Target shooting in an authorised range
• Target shooting in an authorised pistol/rifle club
• Other

People are under the mistaken impression that you can only tick one box. You tick as many as is appropriate to your circumstances.

Minister McDowell made a statement years ago that when he enacted the last firearms Act he had no intention of making zeroing a rifle illegal (as zeroing is classified as target shooting which can only be done on a range) but he never amended the Act or any SI to allow for it. SO while he meant one thing he done another.

An Gardaí are not "concerned" with whether your gun is zeroed or not. It's the reason they have third parties running unsanctioned safety/competency courses. The liability is taken from them.

We have discussed this before in that if you were out in a field, and were firing a couple/few shots to zero your rifle that any member of An Gardaí that would try to prosecute/charge you for doing this would most likely not win the case, but would also be violating the "leeway" that the Minister expressed should be given to those needing to do this that unable to use or not a member of an authroised range.

However it's still illegal, technically.

Back to the reason for a firearm. If you tick hunting only, you are declaring that you only wish to hunt with your firearm. That means no target shooting, and that you are not a member of a range as would be evident by the lack of range membership supplied with any application. The hunting permission would not cover you for any sort of target shooting and this also includes any zeroing.

You are, and quite rightly, applying a level of common sense to a situation that simply does not exist in law. However make the leap and suggest that one automatically covers the other is, legally, wrong.

hexosan

Why not ring the firearms policy unit for clarification on the matter. Because everyone else is only guessing.

meathstevie

hexosan wrote: »

Why not ring the firearms policy unit for clarification on the matter. Because everyone else is only guessing.

The only way the logic can be put to the test is by the courts. The firearms policy unit as has been proven by a fair few appeals for refusals and refusals to renew to not always have the correct interpretation of the law either.

hexosan

meathstevie wrote: »

The only way the logic can be put to the test is by the courts. The firearms policy unit as has been proven by a fair few appeals for refusals and refusals to renew to not always have the correct interpretation of the law either.

Touché