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Rallying around a rapist
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This is actually a major problem, and a lot of child protection services/charities as well as rape crisis centers keep saying for tabloids and the mob that reads them to stop using terms like 'sex beast'/ The reason is because it dehumanises the rapist to such an extent that parents, children, women, etc don't pick up on potential signs as they are not looking for them, and are subconsciously instead looking just for extreme, overt signs that would resemble the 'horny troll under a bridge' image painted in media.NachoBusiness wrote: »Personally I think humans need to stop describing peadophiles as monsters, as while metaphorically they may very well be, physically they very much are not, and as it's a physical world we live in, and not a metaphorical one, it might be best we speak about them in a way which makes them a little easier to spot.0 -
NachoBusiness wrote: »You speak as if there should be two different approaches, but they are in fact one in the same, as if you stop children getting abused, then there would be far less Johnnies/Johannes going on to repeat the cycle.
Personally I think humans need to stop describing peadophiles as monsters, as while metaphorically they may very well be, physically they very much are not, and as it's a physical world we live in, and not a metaphorical one, it might be best we speak about them in a way which makes them a little easier to spot.
Also, I can't abide when I hear people say a child's life is "ruined" and "destroyed" when discussing sexual abuse. It's a horrible thing to say and a I would suggest, a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts, given that children are pretty much all sponges and will without question pick up on such emotive language, and internalize it, exacerbating their processing of the abuse. I am convinced that one person I know that was abused when young in a rural part of Ireland was driven to suicide, not by what they experiences, but by how their family treated them and acted around them once they discovered what had happened.
Yep. Also huge difference between once off abuse, repeated abuse and long term effects of grooming and seduction by trusted adult.
So many different possibilities.
And then other well meaning but stupid people poking at the wound.0 -
By referring to sexual abuse only, you are overlooking other ways that children can be abused and damaged. Emotional abuse, can destroy a child's self-esteem and seriously compromise the child's adult development, leading to dysfunctional behaviours.One eyed Jack wrote: »If that were truly the case, there would be a lot more evidence of adult female abusers than males,0 -
This country is full of fcuking idiots and they will never learn anything. Sometimes I despair of this ****hole country.0
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Thank you for your thought provoking, although unnecessary snarky, response.One eyed Jack wrote:If you read the piece I quoted, you'll see that's exactly what they did with the longitudinal studies that followed children who had been abused into adulthood to determine whether the link was correlative or causative.
Right you have research with a sample of abused people. They have reported their abuse (how else could he researchers know about it) and they will have counselling and have their progress monitored as a minimum ethical consideration. Given that reported cases represent the tip of the iceberg, the ones who report are most likely to receive all that after care. You're really creaming the sample before you even begin.One eyed Jack wrote:It was actually the unquestioned group think up well into the 90's that led to the acceptance of a history of abuse in childhood as a mitigating factor in cases of adults charged with child abuse. That's why it became a common excuse, the idea that as an adult they couldn't have known what they were doing was wrong, because it happened to them.
Who said they would abuse because didn't know what they're doing?One eyed Jack wrote:If that were truly the case, there would be a lot more evidence of adult female abusers than males, as abuse of female children by adults is more common than male children.
Not necessarily. Gender difference are pervasive in sexual abuse.One eyed Jack wrote:There are many subsequent delinquent behaviors common in adults who have been abused as children, but abusing children themselves, isn't one of them. That's why there's a well-founded "group think" if you must, that suggests that sexual abuse is one of the worst crimes committed against a child, exactly because of the psychological damage it can do to a child. The research is there in the link too if you'd care to read it. I linked to Wikipedia because it was convenient, but if you like, I can produce reams of studies and decades of research for your perusal if you're still not satisfied.
Yeah the article you linked to was full of marked differences between behaviour of people who have been abused. Drug use, risky sexual behavior, violence and criminality are all present at higher rates than non-abused people.
Save your ream of research. I looked and there is some research which found an effect while others failed to find it. Given publishing bias in favour of significant results on one hand and previous predisposition towards the effect, and the reams of analogous findings of other pathological effects. It's difficult to determine whether there is no effect or they haven't found a reliable and valid methodology which can tell us either way.One eyed Jack wrote:As Lexie pointed out - it's far more common that adults who have experienced sexual abuse in childhood would never want to inflict that sort of pain and misery upon a child themselves.
Based on? It's bound to be true of some people. That's hardly the point though.
My only research comes from living with a practicing psychologist who talks about these things occasionally.
According to her there's no real point demonstrating the effect because it would lead to people suspecting the victim.
Would you leave your child with a grown up child abuse survivor? If you knew someone has been abused then you know they are more likely to use drugs, be violent, become a criminal etc all well documented to be higher in abuse victims. Would you leave your child with someone who is slightly more likely to be a child abuser?
You would need to be very careful if you did find an effect of raised likelihood of sexual abuse from abuse victims. There is definitely a group think around sexual abuse being objectively the worst crime. It could easily lead to hysteria and people given to drama would likely exclude abuse survivors.One eyed Jack wrote:With respect, the only disconnect I can see here is unfortunately caused by your own ignorance. I don't want to crucify any perpetrator as that would simply achieve nothing, reparative nor restorative justice simply doesn't work either, and this is why civil detention is recommended in the States to remove the perpetrator from society indefinitely, because they can't be cured, or treated, or any of the rest of it, and even though recidivism rates for child abuse are the lowest of all criminal stats, it's still too much of a risk to other children IMO to allow convicted paedophiles or child molesters remain in the general population.One eyed Jack wrote:I'd be interested to hear how you think the dialog should look different though once you've actually done even a modicum of research on the issue of child sexual abuse.
Good for you that you don't want to crucify the perpetrator rather than help the victim. Look back through the thread and tell me there isn't a strong current of people who have thought about the violence they would like to visit on the perpetrator without even considering the victim or how to protect further children. People who can't tell the difference between understanding and explaining in the special case of sexual abuse. This whole threat is riddled with hysteria.0 -
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By referring to sexual abuse only, you are overlooking other ways that children can be abused and damaged. Emotional abuse, can destroy a child's self-esteem and seriously compromise the child's adult development, leading to dysfunctional behaviours.
Given that the discussion is concerned with rape and sexual abuse, I didn't so much overlook it, as just not include it.
Of course there are many other ways besides sexual in which a perpetrator may abuse a child, but they would be beyond the scope of the current discussion and you'd be in danger of turning it into a diluted whataboutery rather than focus on just one aspect of child abuse for the current topic of discussion.0 -
By referring to sexual abuse only, you are overlooking other ways that children can be abused and damaged. Emotional abuse, can destroy a child's self-esteem and seriously compromise the child's adult development, leading to dysfunctional behaviours.
This is true however our sexuality is At the deepest parts of ourselves.
There's a whole mind body trick going on, confusing the pleasure centres so the body responds with pleasure to protect itself but the child feels confused often dissociating by thinking of merry go rounds or the circus or who knows while some grown up has coerced them into sexual supply. You can imagine without me painting a detailed picture here.
As with any kind of abusr a victim can fall into a cycle of what's known as occupying the aggressor, that is when stressed or feeling threatened and stuck in the victim/ perpetrator paradigm, in other words kill or be killed, it's safer to take on the aggressors role and become abusive themselves.
This is not to say it is a destiny, but it does happen.0 -
Consider is sexual abuse a closed cycle (i.e. sexual-abuse in, sexual abuse out)? Or could other forms of child abuse result in sexually abusive behaviour in the victim and vice-versa?One eyed Jack wrote: »Of course there are many other ways besides sexual in which a perpetrator may abuse a child,
To break the cycle of abuse, one must look at all possible causes.0 -
AudreyHepburn wrote: »They clearly either care nothing for the poor child and/or see nothing wrong in what he did.
This is unlikely to be the case, really.
The process around getting signatures on petitions is often done in a manner that makes it difficult for people to stand up and say "No, let the courts decide his guilt before I decide if I will offer him my support". Petitions are usually organised in a manner that creates real peer pressure, as the person may, in other aspects of their lives, be genuinely a hard-working, caring individual. Like alcoholics, many paedophiles experience attractions that are hard to control, and while they may know it's wrong when the opportunity presents itself at a moment in time they may succumb to them and mentally objectify their victim to act out their desires. This is an aspect of the paedophile personality that is not seen by people who know them.
In saying that I'm in no way "being soft on paedophiles". I believe that convicted child molesters should be sentenced to life imprisonment or given the death penalty, as I do not believe that they can ever have a place in society.
What I'm saying is that the people who sign the petitions are usually doing so because they have not seen that aspect of the person for themselves, and based on their own experiences, they may believe them to be decent, hard-working folk. More likely though, they believe that it's up to the courts to prove guilt, and that the 'decent person' they think they know should have the benefit of the doubt if there is one.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Thank you for your thought provoking, although unnecessary snarky, response.
...
This whole threat is riddled with hysteria.
I thought about addressing some of the points you made, but then I figured, well, my sanity is worth more than entertaining that load of...
Let's just say I don't think there's much point in even trying as I don't think it would make a difference to your opinion either way.Consider is sexual abuse a closed cycle (i.e. sexual-abuse in, sexual abuse out)? Or could other forms of child abuse result in sexually abusive behaviour in the victim and vice-versa?
To break the cycle of abuse, one must look at all possible causes.
I know what you mean alright, but that line of thinking can only work at an individual level. You can't account for nor accommodate every variable, and especially not in an online discussion where our discussion is unlikely ever to influence public policy.0 -
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One eyed Jack wrote:I thought about addressing some of the points you made, but then I figured, well, my sanity is worth more than entertaining that load of...
It's up to you to decide whether you are able to engage in the duscussion.
I highlighted methodological flaws built into the research, a strawman in your last post, posed a question about whether or not you would leave a child with an abuse victim with the knowledge you have.One eyed Jack wrote:Let's just say I don't think there's much point in even trying as I don't think it would make a difference to your opinion either way.
Reasoned argument might sway my opinion. Your first reply was interesting but the snarky tone made clear that you weren't really interested in decent discussion.0 -
A 16-year guy gets caught consenually snogging a 14-year girl ...life imprisonment or death?In saying that I'm in no way "being soft on paedophiles". I believe that convicted child molesters should be sentenced to life imprisonment or given the death penalty, as I do not believe that they can ever have a place in society.0 -
A 16-year guy gets caught consenually snogging a 14-year girl ...life imprisonment or death?
That clearly isn't paedophilia however before any proposed zero tolerance approach is implemented, the offences and sentencing may need to be redefined.
18 year old man snogging 14 year old girl - 10 lashes
58 year old priest abusing 11 year old alter boy - DEATH0 -
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