Irish Water must stay on State balance sheet—Eurostat

Graham

QuinDixie wrote: »

water tax for me is similar to VAT, practically unavoidable.

A bit like food.

Reduce your water consumption and you reduce your burden on the water supply and the cost to you. Sounds fair to me.

Seth Brundle

QuinDixie wrote: »

VRT, Stamp Duty, CGT, Corporation tax are mandatory in certain situations but can be avoided, but there still taxes.
water tax for me is similar to VAT, practically unavoidable.

Practically? :rolleyes:

the argument that was bandied around for ages by the no side was that it pisses rain here so much that there was no justification for charges. So then, use the rain water!

Banjo String

micosoft wrote: »

The deficit was a result of the Irish Electorates voting in of FF three times in a row to award themselves massive amounts of handouts. Not sure how the current government is responsible for a deficit they inherited.

Good point.

But it *possibly would have been far worse had FG gotten their way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa2vTSwic7M

*Enda didn't answer the question, so we will be perpetually wondering.

Sand

kbannon wrote: »

By introducing higher taxes, then I pay more for water than I do now and I also will pay more that many other people. How is this fair?

Taxes are not justified as being fair. They're justified by being necessary and the most efficient way to achieve a public good.

Seth Brundle

Sand wrote: »

Taxes are not justified as being fair. They're justified by being necessary and the most efficient way to achieve a public good.

Most efficient way? According to whom?

Sand

Anyone who objectively examines the costs of raising revenue as a new, semi-voluntary registration process that requires extensive administration, systems, staff and legal followups, versus raising same amount of revenue by adding 0.5% to the income tax bands already being collected at no additional cost.

Graham

Sand wrote: »

Anyone who objectively examines the costs of raising revenue as a new, semi-voluntary registration process that requires extensive administration, systems, staff and legal followups, versus raising same amount of revenue by adding 0.5% to the income tax bands already being collected at no additional cost.

Even if taxation is the most efficient way of raising revenue (and I'm not entirely convinced it is) there is a point where the additional tax burdens become a disincentive to work/earn for the very people paying the taxes. Emigration increases particularly amongst the highly mobile/educated parts of the workforce, for lower paid workers the incentive to choose working over welfare diminishes.

Cookie_Monster

Sand wrote: »

Anyone who objectively examines the costs of raising revenue as a new, semi-voluntary registration process that requires extensive administration, systems, staff and legal followups, versus raising same amount of revenue by adding 0.5% to the income tax bands already being collected at no additional cost.

So why don't we simply do away with ESB and BG and roll that into general taxation as well, everyone can pay regardless of usage.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Why?

do you really need an answer to that, really?

How about the costs of treating water that is then simply wasted and then the costs of treating that water again as waste water.
How about the environmental impacts of having to build more and more water resources rather than conserving and staying within current capacity
How about all the additioanl emissions associated with both of the above
How about the cost of additional staff and other resources with continued growing demand and subsequent supply

kidneyfan

kbannon wrote: »

...or SF who were offering even more than that (and still are)!


By introducing higher taxes, then I pay more for water than I do now and I also will pay more that many other people. How is this fair?

Progressive taxation is perfectly fair. Irish citizenship is a privilege and carries duties as well as rights.

NorthStars

Graham wrote: »

Move the burden entirely onto the taxpayers,

Who in Ireland isn't a taxpayer?

JustTheOne

NorthStars wrote: »

Who in Ireland isn't a taxpayer?

Don't start this again.

Unemployed people.

Oh but they pay vat on goods blah blah.

Yes with money they get from the employed.

Sand

Sand wrote: »

Anyone who objectively examines the costs of raising revenue as a new, semi-voluntary registration process that requires extensive administration, systems, staff and legal followups, versus raising same amount of revenue by adding 0.5% to the income tax bands already being collected at no additional cost.

What of the other benefits of metered charging & a semi-state body? How much do you cost these at? Objectively it is quite clear that there are large efficiencies to be had under the proposal.

Metered charging provides;

• An incentive to reduce usage / wastage for the end user.
• An incentive to fix leaks for the end user.
• A viable method to identify locations of leaks which have thus far gone undetected for years.

A centralised system provides;

• Reduction in staffing costs* through removal of duplication of positions
• Reduction in payment systems' costs through removal of duplicative systems
• Reduction in monitoring systems' costs through removal of duplicative systems
• Reduction in legal costs through ..
• etc.

And finally, moving this out of the Government's hands directly **

Reduces the Government direct liability and costs which means that the funding that is sorely needed to upgrade and update our water infrastructure is moved away from the Government Balance sheet, which given the targets that we've signed up for (and are still not yet meeting) is a very useful way of reducing our need for more austere measures.

Have we absolutely zero time for these important ancillary aspects of the proposal? Each of these benefits reduces the Total Government / Average Irish Person's cost of water provision. What proposal do you have to reduce the costs by anything near a comparable amount?

*Though I'll readily admit that in IW's case this aspect was bastardised & delayed by signing up the LA staff for 5 years in a populist nonsensical manner.
** Again, another fail here due to EuroStat ruling (failed for tinkering and pandering)

Zubeneschamali

Sand wrote: »

Anyone who objectively examines the costs of raising revenue as a new, semi-voluntary registration process that requires extensive administration, systems, staff and legal followups, versus raising same amount of revenue by adding 0.5% to the income tax bands already being collected at no additional cost.

Yes indeed, let's have the PAYE donkeys pay for unlimited, unmetered water for everyone else!

But firstly, FG promised not to do that, and got elected on that basis. Some people think that matters. Secondly, it gives no incentive to either the water authority or end users to stop wasting most of our treated water.

Imagine if electricity was free and unmetered for users, and the ESB was funded by a .5% tax increase, how much power would we waste? How bloated would the ESB get? That's how bad our water services are now.

FreudianSlippers

NorthStars wrote: »

So is the head man of the parent company of IW wrong with his figures?
The whole thing gets more worrying if that's the case.
€1.2 billion seems to be a popular figure around these parts.

So you don't know the difference between the Local Authorities and Irish Water is what you're getting at?

NorthStars wrote: »

Just checked there.
Motor tax receipts for 2014 were €1.159 billion.

...and what's 5% of that? Is that more or less than €1.2bn?

I think you should maybe have a read of the 5 Politics Cafe threads on this subject. No offence, but I think you need to do some background reading before jumping into this topic.

FreudianSlippers

NorthStars wrote: »

It looks like Noonan and Co are going to just carry on as before.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/eurostat-concerned-by-government-control-of-irish-water-1.2299714

Failing the MCT doesn't seem to bother them as much as it bothers Eurostat.

Eurostat aren't "concerned" about anything. They have simply pointed out that Irish Water isn't MCT compliant to be a true independent utility.

K-9

Mod:

This is becoming just another IW Cafe standard thread, with the same posters making the same points, just in a different place which is a pointless exercise.

There is room for an IW thread on the forum, but this isn't it I'm afraid.