Irish Water must stay on State balance sheet—Eurostat

Jawgap · 28-07-2015 2:19pm

Uncle Ben wrote: »

Gavin Reilly twitter. Cannot post links sorry.

Looking at his feed now and I can't see where Gavin Reilly is saying the Dail is to be recalled.

He's reporting on calls for the Dail and Seanad to be recalled, but there doesn't seem to be any move in that direction.

As a general observation, I'm not sure why they would even want to recall either house of the Oireachtas - it's not exactly an urgent topic requiring legislation to be passed?

Graham · 28-07-2015 2:22pm

Niemoj wrote: »

This article might be of interest to you, funds from motor tax is definitely NOT what should be used to privatise our water!

http://www.thejournal.ie/how-much-will-it-cost-to-set-up-irish-water-1921250-Feb2015/

What are you suggesting then. As far as I can see our choices as a Country to secure our water supply appear are:

1) Consumers pay Irish Water for water provision based on usage.
2) Increase general taxation to pay for water.
3) Cut public services to pay for water.
4) Consumers pay a private utility company for water provision based on usage.

When considering those options, consider also that we need to incentivise water conservation.

BoJack Horseman · 28-07-2015 2:31pm

Niemoj wrote: »

This article might be of interest to you, funds from motor tax is definitely NOT what should be used to privatise our water!

This again.

Motor tax primarily is paid to LA's, their biggest expenditure is water/sewage.

Motor tax has always been used to pay for water/sewage.

And the only party to advocate the privatisation of IW changed their mind.

NorthStars · 28-07-2015 2:35pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

This again.

Motor tax primarily is paid to LA's, their biggest expenditure is water/sewage.

Motor tax has always been used to pay for water/sewage.

And the only party to advocate the privatisation of IW changed their mind.

Motor tax and LPT is paid into the LGF.
The LGF now subvents IW to the tune of around €500 million pa.
So far IW has taken in around €30 million in domestic water rates if it's to be believed.
Who's paying for IW?

BoJack Horseman · 28-07-2015 2:36pm

NorthStars wrote: »

Who's paying for IW?

The same way its been paid the last few decades.

NorthStars · 28-07-2015 2:42pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The same way its been paid the last few decades.

So, the taxpayer is and has been paying all along.
Correct?
Now, the head of Eriva, IW's parent company claimed at the weekend that water infrastructure and provision will require around €600 million pa for the foreseeable future.
FG and FF, in office reduced the amount spent on water from circa €1.2 billion in 2008 to circa €375 million in 2013.
At the end of the day, if IW needs €600 million pa, it will get it and whether it's from direct charges, subvention from the LGF or from general taxation....we pay for our water.

Graham · 28-07-2015 2:51pm

NorthStars wrote: »

So, the taxpayer is and has been paying all along.

Nowhere near enough for the level of investment and maintenance required.

FreudianSlippers · 28-07-2015 2:59pm

Niemoj wrote: »

This article might be of interest to you, funds from motor tax is definitely NOT what should be used to privatise our water!

http://www.thejournal.ie/how-much-will-it-cost-to-set-up-irish-water-1921250-Feb2015/

I take it you didn't read that article which clearly states:

The semi-state body received a subvention of €439 million in 2014 and is expected to receive €399 million and €479 million in 2015 and 2016 respectively.

Now I'm not mathematician, but €479m is a hell of a lot less than €1.2bn in my estimates.

FreudianSlippers · 28-07-2015 3:02pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Looking at his feed now and I can't see where Gavin Reilly is saying the Dail is to be recalled.

He's reporting on calls for the Dail and Seanad to be recalled, but there doesn't seem to be any move in that direction.

As a general observation, I'm not sure why they would even want to recall either house of the Oireachtas - it's not exactly an urgent topic requiring legislation to be passed?

+1 I checked and found nothing of the sort.

NorthStars wrote: »

Motor tax and LPT is paid into the LGF.
The LGF now subvents IW to the tune of around €500 million pa.
So far IW has taken in around €30 million in domestic water rates if it's to be believed.
Who's paying for IW?

You're misunderstanding - that estimated €479m is the 5% of motor tax receipts which is legislatively put aside to contribute to water taxes.

FreudianSlippers · 28-07-2015 3:06pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

are people who say "why pay twice" idiots?

Because we don't pay twice. It's like saying we shouldn't pay income tax because we pay VAT or we shouldn't pay motor tax because we pay tax on fuel.

Ash.J.Williams · 28-07-2015 3:12pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Because we don't pay twice. It's like saying we shouldn't pay income tax because we pay VAT or we shouldn't pay motor tax because we pay tax on fuel.

there are people that shout it as the answer for everything to do with IW

hatrickpatrick · 28-07-2015 3:22pm

Graham wrote: »

What are you suggesting then. As far as I can see our choices as a Country to secure our water supply appear are:

1) Consumers pay Irish Water for water provision based on usage.
2) Increase general taxation to pay for water.
3) Cut public services to pay for water.
4) Consumers pay a private utility company for water provision based on usage.

The bit in bold is the fallacy. We have the option to cut public spending to pay for water. Alleging that this necessarily involves cuts to public services is, by extension, alleging that there is no waste, no government spending which does not end up benefitting the public.

We all, you included, know that such a claim is bollocks.

When considering those options, consider also that we need to incentivise water conservation.

Why?

Bits_n_Bobs · 28-07-2015 3:33pm

Uncle Ben wrote: »

You could sell it at a loss, like eh, Siteserv....

IBRC has been liquidated and have stopped giving low cost loans to our 'entrepreneurs' so who would be able to buy it

NorthStars · 28-07-2015 3:43pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

+1 I checked and found nothing of the sort.

You're misunderstanding - that estimated €479m is the 5% of motor tax receipts which is legislatively put aside to contribute to water taxes.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Because we don't pay twice.

So, I pay my motor tax (on 3 vehicles, well over €1,000 pa) and that goes into the LGF, as does my LPT, on two properties.
Then, through general taxation I part fund the other subvention of IW.
On top of that, I'm expected to pay, although I won't be, another portion of my income which has already been taxed at source.

In your view, I'm only paying once for water?

FreudianSlippers · 28-07-2015 3:46pm

NorthStars wrote: »

So, I pay my motor tax (on 3 vehicles, well over €1,000 pa) and that goes into the LGF, as does my LPT, on two properties.
Then, through general taxation I part fund the other subvention of IW.
On top of that, I'm expected to pay, although I won't be, another portion of my income which has already been taxed at source.

In your view, I'm only paying once for water?

I wish I could find another way of saying only 5% of motor tax goes to water, but I just can't fathom a more simple way of stating that. The rest of your tax goes all sorts of places. We still don't have enough to cover water costs, so yes - you have to pay by use as well.

NorthStars · 28-07-2015 3:50pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I wish I could find another way of saying only 5% of motor tax goes to water, but I just can't fathom a more simple way of stating that. The rest of your tax goes all sorts of places. We still don't have enough to cover water costs, so yes - you have to pay by use as well.

So, you're agreeing that the government expect us to pay twice?
Or are you saying that they want us to pay once, but take it from lots of different sources?
If this is the case, can you work out the true amount people are expected to pay for water, considering the €240 or whatever it is in charges IW want directly obviously isn't the only source?

Jawgap · 28-07-2015 3:58pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I wish I could find another way of saying only 5% of motor tax goes to water, but I just can't fathom a more simple way of stating that. The rest of your tax goes all sorts of places. We still don't have enough to cover water costs, so yes - you have to pay by use as well.

If the logic that somehow people have paid for water and therefore should be excused further charges is true then either we need to seriously bump up the amount we pay in taxes or a whole host of other services we pay at point of use for (or are metered for) should be free including

tolled motorways
public transport
A&E
on-street car parking
local authority leisure centres
tickets for GAA, rugby and soccer matches (given the grant funding sports gets from various sources and towards various ends)

When BGE and the ESB were being subvented was anyone seriously arguing at the time that that we'd already paid for our gas and electricity and consequently shouldn't be billed for those utilities?

Water is a utility, it's not special, and it should be metered and charged for as such - and if you use less, you pay less. Better than writing a blank cheque for people to water gardens and wash cars with no consequences.

rubberdiddies · 28-07-2015 3:59pm

I never really understand the people who say we aren't paying for it twice. It's fact so there's no argument against the people that say we are.

If they want to truly bill people for water then by all means bill based on usage and remove/reduce the other taxes that go towards water.

The fact that this will never happen says a lot

NorthStars · 28-07-2015 4:04pm

rubberdiddies wrote: »

I never really understand the people who say we aren't paying for it twice. It's fact so there's no argument against the people that say we are.

If they want to truly bill people for water then by all means bill based on usage and remove/reduce the other taxes that go towards water.

The fact that this will never happen says a lot

As has already been admitted on thread, the increase in road tax (motor tax as it's known now) and VAT after 1977 was used to fund water provision.
It's not now though as it's been hived off to pay for something else, hence the new tax/charge.
Pity it's failing miserably though, isn't it?

What's also funny is how almost the exact amount we pay in LPT is being diverted to IW through the LGF in subvention.

A con job, by any standards.

FreudianSlippers · 28-07-2015 4:26pm

NorthStars wrote: »

As has already been admitted on thread, the increase in road tax (motor tax as it's known now) and VAT after 1977 was used to fund water provision.
It's not now though as it's been hived off to pay for something else, hence the new tax/charge.
Pity it's failing miserably though, isn't it?

What's also funny is how almost the exact amount we pay in LPT is being diverted to IW through the LGF in subvention.

A con job, by any standards.

It was not used to fund water provision. 5% of it went towards provision of water. By recent estimates, that 5% would be €479m of a provision cost of €1.2bn. You do see how that's not funding it right?

Or are you just going to continue to ignore all facts on this thread?

NorthStars · 28-07-2015 4:31pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It was not used to fund water provision. 5% of it went towards provision of water. By recent estimates, that 5% would be €479m of a provision cost of €1.2bn. You do see how that's not funding it right?

Or are you just going to continue to ignore all facts on this thread?

Where are you getting €1.2 billion from?

On Sunday, Michael McNicholas, the boss of Ervia claimed they needed €600 million pa for water services.

listermint · 28-07-2015 4:33pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It was not used to fund water provision. 5% of it went towards provision of water. By recent estimates, that 5% would be €479m of a provision cost of €1.2bn. You do see how that's not funding it right?

Or are you just going to continue to ignore all facts on this thread?

It was taken for that purpose, what was done with it is the governments fault. We cant control what they do with the money. Bad Governance and reducing the money spent on Water Provision year on year since 2010 is FGs doing. not the electorate.

johnnyskeleton · 28-07-2015 4:36pm

Icepick wrote: »

This means less money for spongers in the next budget and increased effort on collections, yet Syriza Fein are celebrating this.

Icepick wrote: »

Bell end and his pals

MOD NOTE:

A higher standard is required and there has already been an on thread warning. Please increase the quality of your input rather than taking cheap digs at people. If you persist in lowering the tone you will be banned.

K-9 · 28-07-2015 5:33pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

MOD NOTE:

A higher standard is required and there has already been an on thread warning. Please increase the quality of your input rather than taking cheap digs at people. If you persist in lowering the tone you will be banned.

Mod:

Just to add as advice for some posters who may get a little lost, this is the politics (general) board, not the politics cafe so posts that contribute nothing to the thread, or are personal attacks, get deleted. So I'd recommend reviewing any quick fire, starter for 10 type responses. If there is no value to them nobody will see them and replies to same will also disappear.

Basically, this isn't going to become another IW battleground, the rules are much stricter here to cater for a higher standard of discussion which the forum regulars expect.

Several posts were deleted and the thread tidied up, thanks for your patience.

FreudianSlippers · 28-07-2015 5:47pm

NorthStars wrote: »

Where are you getting €1.2 billion from?

On Sunday, Michael McNicholas, the boss of Ervia claimed they needed €600 million pa for water services.

We're not seriously going back over that ground are we? €1.2bn was the cost of the provision of services from the LAs - it's commonly accepted at this point. Eriva didn't even exist when the 5% was taken from motor tax.

listermint wrote: »

It was taken for that purpose, what was done with it is the governments fault. We cant control what they do with the money.

No matter how you slice it, motor tax money is not coming anywhere near covering provision of water services.

Bad Governance and reducing the money spent on Water Provision year on year since 2010 is FGs doing. not the electorate.

Source required.

NorthStars · 28-07-2015 5:50pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

We're not seriously going back over that ground are we? €1.2bn was the cost of the provision of services from the LAs - it's commonly accepted at this point. Eriva didn't even exist when the 5% was taken from motor tax.

So is the head man of the parent company of IW wrong with his figures?
The whole thing gets more worrying if that's the case.
€1.2 billion seems to be a popular figure around these parts.

NorthStars · 28-07-2015 6:09pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It was not used to fund water provision. 5% of it went towards provision of water. By recent estimates, that 5% would be €479m of a provision cost of €1.2bn. You do see how that's not funding it right?

Or are you just going to continue to ignore all facts on this thread?

Just checked there.
Motor tax receipts for 2014 were €1.159 billion.

NorthStars · 28-07-2015 6:17pm

Another interesting document here detailing some of the routes of subvention to IW.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CE4QFjAHahUKEwj0wtTLp_7GAhUKWtsKHVk_AeA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.budget.gov.ie%2FBudgets%2F2015%2FDocuments%2FWhite%2520Paper%25202015_final.pdf&ei=Tba3VbToEoq07QbZ_oSADg&usg=AFQjCNF71HdOB17k6C9ynf_5OwWDyHkIbQ

Jawgap · 28-07-2015 6:26pm

Motor tax doesn't fund IW - it goes into the LGF along with an exchequer contribution, and the subvention for IW is drawn from this....

The main receipts in the Fund are Motor Tax €1.167b in 2015 and Local Property Tax (LPT) €440m in 2015. Prior to advent of LPT in 2014, Household Charge receipts went into the Fund.

A payment from the Exchequer of some €233m is also included in the Fund for 2015 to cover the cost of payments of €28m to local authorities for VER for water workers, €43m for historic local authority water loans to Irish Water, €21m to cover the loss in revenue to Irish Water as a consequence of the final tariff regime and €141m for self-funding by local authorities of housing and roads.

A subvention payment of €399m will paid to Irish Water from the LG Fund in 2015.

In addition to the subvention in the Local Government Fund, an equity investment of €222m was paid by the Minister of Finance from the Central Fund to Irish Water in late 2014 and a provision for €96m for a working capital loan to Irish Water from the Central Fund, the total payments to Irish Water could amount to €717m for 2015.

Source: Local Government Fund briefing for the PAC meeting on 5 March 2015

Also a good chunk of the motor tax receipts (€246m in 2014) goes from the LGF to the exchequer for the central pot.

listermint · 28-07-2015 6:27pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Source required.

I don't need to source Google fine gael capital spending on water infrastructure. It's been seismically reduced year on year since 2010 but sure you know this as it has been discussed over and over .

You can find it yourself. I'm on a mobile device and I won't do leg work for something you are aware of.

Irish Water must stay on State balance sheet—Eurostat

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