Signing Cards?

newport2

Boskowski wrote: »

And to be really practical...
Let's say I play with these guys I usually don't play with and the usual 'here, I mark all the cards lads' is being said. Am I going to reply saying I'm not comfortable with you marking your own card?

Fair point, but I would just say something along the lines of you and a few mates were DQ for that before, unaware of the issue, hence you don't do it anymore and suggest swapping cards.

Boskowski

newport2 wrote: »

Fair point, but I would just say something along the lines of you and a few mates were DQ for that before, unaware of the issue, hence you don't do it anymore and suggest swapping cards.

I guess that would work. Thanks.

As for my regular lads I gonna bring it up saying this technically is a rule breach. See what they say but I know for sure none of us what ever be messin with scores.

Tiger Mcilroy

Boskowski wrote: »

This is all making sense. So technically we're in breach of rule when one guy marks them all.

On the practical side though golf is a game of honor and all should happen in the spirit of the game.

And to be really practical...
Let's say I play with these guys I usually don't play with and the usual 'here, I mark all the cards lads' is being said. Am I going to reply saying I'm not comfortable with you marking your own card?

Wouldn't be the greatest start to a Fourball.
And before anyone says it - it's not the same as taking an illegal drop or kickin the ball out of the rough. There of course you wouldn't care what he or they think of you.

You dont get to follow some rules as you like and then bend others that you dont in golf. There is no technically or ambiguity at all, people should not be marking their own cards.

Boskowski

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

You dont get to follow some rules as you like and then bend others that you dont in golf. There is no technically or ambiguity at all, people should not be marking their own cards.

What I mean with technically - and I appreciate your stance that it doesn't matter - that none of us would ever submit a wrong score. Which is really what this rule is about.

Seve OB

Boskowski wrote: »

This is all making sense. So technically we're in breach of rule when one guy marks them all.

yes

Boskowski wrote: »

And to be really practical...
Let's say I play with these guys I usually don't play with and the usual 'here, I mark all the cards lads' is being said. Am I going to reply saying I'm not comfortable with you marking your own card?

why not? you could just tell them it's against the rules!

bustercherry

5 pages on how to mark cards and still people are confused. seriously???

Kid Charlemagne

Redzah wrote: »

No the English is quite clear in the second sentence, it says;

He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

Let me break it down for you further like they would in senior infants.

He must ensure that;

a. the marker or markers have signed the score card.
b. sign the scorecard himself
c. return it to the committee as soon as possible.

And as you will note from other quotations of the rules, this is all to happen AFTER the round.

No no Redzah. The rules of golf are very precise and in fact the use of the word "should" allows us the freedom to make our own call.
You are of course quite right that there are certain steps that "must" be followed and as such the correct penalty of disqualification is applied.:) The object here is to ensure that if someone wants to cheat then they must get a fellow competitor to collude with this degenerate behaviour. The whole idea is to stop people going out deliberately misrepresenting their scores, in fact I know 2 "individuals" who have been caught cheating and handed suspensions - there is no way they would have been caught without the signing cards rule. To be clear, these people are not friends of mine, I would have no hesitation in shunning a golf cheat. But at least we know the rule is well formed and fit for purpose.:D

In response to the guys who state "technically" in breach, in fact I would say you are "technically" not in breach, albeit you are not acting in the spirit of the rule. But I think the R&A is quite unambiguously awarding a certain margin of judgment and trusting to our integrity as golfers in allowing us to come to the mandatory stage ourselves.:)

Kid Charlemagne

Seve OB wrote: »

yes



why not? you could just tell them it's against the rules!

Well indeed, if it were in fact, against the rules, which I believe we can all agree, it is not:D

Kid Charlemagne

bustercherry wrote: »

5 pages on how to mark cards and still people are confused. seriously???

It is very strange, the rule couldn't be clearer.

Boskowski

bustercherry wrote: »

5 pages on how to mark cards and still people are confused. seriously???

Thing is I still don't know for sure whether one guy marking all cards during the round is a rule breach. I thought it was clear a few posts ago but interesting points were raised since. So it's obviously not that easy.

We have established what must happen after the round but we have a lot of interpretations on what should and must and what's implied and what is not implied during the round.

Seve OB

Kid Charlemagne wrote: »

Well indeed, if it were in fact, against the rules, which I believe we can all agree, it is not:D

no we can not all agree it is not. it is. and the specific rule has been pointed out in numerous posts by now!

Boskowski wrote: »

Thing is I still don't know for sure whether one guy marking all cards during the round is a rule breach. I thought it was clear a few posts ago but interesting points were raised since. So it's obviously not that easy.

We have established what must happen after the round but we have a lot of interpretations on what should and must and what's implied and what is not implied during the round.

Really????? Did you even read the rules that were posted?

Boskowski

Seve OB wrote: »

Really????? Did you even read the rules that were posted?

Yes I have, come on stop the patronizing tone. It doesn't make your points any stronger quite the opposite.

6-6. Scoring in Stroke Play
a. Recording Scores
After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.
b. Signing and Returning Score Card
After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible

It clearly makes a distinction between shoulds and musts. You will agree that this is no accident. These words are carefully chosen and so is the wording of the entires rules of golf.
So if it was 100% clear that the marker must not equal the competitor during the round it would make that absolutely clear by appropriate wording. It does not. All I see is what people think another sub-rule implies on the process.
My interpretation could easily be that the marker is merely the guy who stands over a score, not that the marker is necessarily the guy who writes the score onto the score card.

And as another poster already mentioned Pros mark their own scores. I have never seen on telly anyone exchanging scores for marking purposes during the round.

Edit: I better stop editing my posts over and over again.

Seve OB

Boskowski wrote: »

And as another poster already mentioned Pros mark their own scores. I have never seen on telly anyone exchanging scores for marking purposes during the round.

I don't think that poster knows what they are talking about

Boskowski

Seve OB wrote: »

I don't think that poster knows what they are talking about

So have you ever heard Pros exchanging words over a score after each hole on telly? Because if they were marking the other guys score thats what would have to happen as another rule clearly states. Scores cannot be just written down by the marker based on what he saw. Scores must be verbally stated by the competitor. I never heard anyone doing that during Pro rounds.

Edit: I just did a bit of googling on the pro subject and apparently they mark both their own score and the other guy's score. They must exchange the scores on the next tee and Sky must absolutely blank that out or something. Cos I really never heard them exchanging scores. But it still doesn't clear up the actual question fully.

Kid Charlemagne

Seve OB wrote: »

no we can not all agree it is not. it is. and the specific rule has been pointed out in numerous posts by now!

/QUOTE]

Now now, while I am sure you're intent is good and you are not attempting to undermine the rules of golf, it is important that you work with what is actually written, as opposed to taking leaps of logic. (Which is of course the normal thing for the human to do, and suspending that instinct is difficult - it is why we have so much confusion over the rules of golf.):)

But those rules are very carefully written, be under no illusions about that!:D

Seve OB

Boskowski wrote: »

So have you ever heard Pros exchanging words over a score after each hole on telly? Because if they were marking the other guys score thats what would have to happen as another rule clearly states. Scores cannot be just written down by the marker based on what he saw. Scores must be verbally stated by the competitor. I never heard anyone doing that during Pro rounds.

Actually I am now also of the opinion that you are another who doesn't know what you are talking about

Boskowski

Seve OB wrote: »

Actually I am now also of the opinion that you are another who doesn't know what you are talking about

Well actually you're right, thats the whole point of it. I don't know what I'm talking about and thats why I asked for advice and that kicked off the whole discussion.

Very well observed.

Boskowski

Hey Seve,

I've been a sneaky fella (No Im not, simply wanted to know)

Since you quoted Barry Rhodes as an authority on golf rules I actually posed the question on his blog.

Hi Barry,

interesting discussion on another forum you might be able to help with.

It is not uncommon practice during competitive rounds in club competitions that one guy marks all the score cards including his own. After the round one of his fellow competitors signs his card as marker.
Is there a breach of rule here? If there is are all competitors in that group in breach or only the guy who has all the score cards during the round?

The wording in the rule (6-6 a & b) is not unambiguous. It makes a distinction between during the round and after the round and carefully uses words like 'should' and 'must'. It leaves room for interpretation whether a marker is merely the guy who stands over another competitor's score or whether he must be the guy who actually writes the score onto the card during the round.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

This is what he came back with.

In another blog titled 'Golf - Responsibilities of a Marker', dated 28th September, 2010, I finished by saying;

"I have one final point on this subject. In some playing groups it is common for one person to mark all the scorecards, including their own. This is not an acceptable practice in competitions and must be discouraged."

You will gather from this that there is no Rule of Golf that penalises one player in a group from marking all the score cards, including their own. However, I recommend that Committees introduce sanctions against players who do this, e.g. suspending the player from entering the next competition. It is a bad practice and one which obviously goes against the implied intention of Rule 6-6.

Barry

Dtoffee

Unless the RandA come out with a definitive rule with penalties for marking your own card, I think the issue will never be resolved. Leaving it to local committees is not going to work tbh, because we all know that some clubs just wont bother.

I have never marked my own card, but over the years I have gone out to play with some players who have their designated 'cark marker' and been told to hand my card to 'X' as he marks the cards. I dont argue and just hand over my card, then I ask 'X' for his card as its only fair since he's marking mine and sure I like to mark a card and keep track of my own scores / indexes etc ....... this solves the problem and no harm done.

We could debate this forever, but its not going to change unless the rules are definitive and imposed at every level and every club.

Russman

Just who is this Barry Rhodes to say what is acceptable or not, or what is bad practice or not ?

Boskowski

True that but since Seve accuses people of not knowing what they're talking about - in my case he's somewhat right - I thought I'd ask someone who knows what they're talking about by seve's own account.

For me this clears it up now. In the future I will rather do it the right way. But I won't disagree with and alienate myself if my fellow playing partners wanna do it the 'other' way and I know we can all trust each other.
After all it's not a punishable rule breach. And in my own opinion if we can all trust each other and there's no abuse we still act in the spirit of the game.