Signing Cards?

Wichita Lineman

A recent phenomenon at my club has seen a number of lads disqualified for not having their card signed properly.

They either didn't sign it themselves or didn't ensure their marker had also signed.

To me it's a basic rule of golf and I just cant understand how lads let it happen. To make matters worse some are quite upset about being DQ'd!!

Does this happen regularly elsewhere?

slave1

Yep, always at New Forest every week when checking the results you see folk DQ Rule 6-6(b), think their scores still taken into account for CSS though so if they did well lads would be thinking why CSS was so high at times.
Just being lazy or know they will be DQ's and get 0.1 back maybe?

charlieIRL

Crikey, I don't think i signed my card last Thursday in Moate, was in a rush leaving after the round. Not that it mattered with the score i had but still, silly mistake.

Wichita Lineman

I wouldn't think yesterday was deliberate anyway as a number of them had decent scores for the Captains Prize Qualifier. Perhaps just bad habits or people rushing away as they were soaked after a drizzly round yesterday. Mind you some of the DQ's played Saturday when it was lovely!

cairny

slave1 wrote: »

Yep, always at New Forest every week when checking the results you see folk DQ Rule 6-6(b), think their scores still taken into account for CSS though so if they did well lads would be thinking why CSS was so high at times.
Just being lazy or know they will be DQ's and get 0.1 back maybe?

You will still avoid a 0.1 and even get cut on a DQ card, just no prize so no point doing it deliberately.

newport2

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

I wouldn't think yesterday was deliberate anyway as a number of them had decent scores for the Captains Prize Qualifier. Perhaps just bad habits or people rushing away as they were soaked after a drizzly round yesterday. Mind you some of the DQ's played Saturday when it was lovely!

If it wasn't deliberate, all it should take is one good score card followed by a DQ to prevent it ever happening again. I remember years ago it happened to my mate after the round of his life, DQ when he would have come 1st.

yettie1701

Learned a dear lesson a few years back. I had 42 points in a competition and forgot to sign my card. I was disqualified and rightly so still got cut and the winning score was 41. It won't happen me again.

slave1

Kinda like the best way to remember your wife's birthday, it's to forget it....

Senna

Happened to me once as well, had a good score and forgot to sign the card, I wasn't even in a rush, just too busy chatting while entering the score. Now when I get my card at the start of the round, I sign it.

OffalyMedic

What ever about forgetting to sign cards what I can't understand is when people have a winning score and don't return card.

About 2 years ago in our club, a lady had winning score in captains prize and went home to get changed for dinner with card in bag/pocket or something. Either way when comp was over her card wasn't in the box so she was dq'd.

How sick would you be, not everyday you have winning card in captains prize!!

Redzah

Senna wrote: »

Happened to me once as well, had a good score and forgot to sign the card, I wasn't even in a rush, just too busy chatting while entering the score. Now when I get my card at the start of the round, I sign it.

Purpose of signing the card is to verify the score you submit is correct. How can you do this at the start of the round? Kinda like signing a blank cheque!!!

Senna

Redzah wrote: »

Purpose of signing the card is to verify the score you submit is correct. How can you do this at the start of the round? Kinda like signing a blank cheque!!!

I've no problem with it, marker hands it back to me, I check it over and put it in computer/box, if there's a problem I'll still know, whether it's signed or not.

Boskowski

Ye I don't get that either. After the round you sit down. probably write down last or last two scores ('what had you on the last?') then verify and tot it all up and then you sign as marker. Then you hand it to the player and say 'please check that before you sign'.

There's really not much room for forgetting unless you do your own card to begin with or some other stuff.

Dtoffee

Senna wrote: »

Now when I get my card at the start of the round, I sign it.

I often do that and do the same with the card I get to mark, never had a problem.

Senna

Boskowski wrote: »

Ye I don't get that either. After the round you sit down. probably write down last or last two scores ('what had you on the last?') then verify and tot it all up and then you sign as marker. Then you hand it to the player and say 'please check that before you sign'.

There's really not much room for forgetting unless you do your own card to begin with or some other stuff.

That's like saying "I don't know how anyone could miss a one foot putt". Of course you don't miss it often and you don't forget to sign a card often, but mistakes can and do happen, so I try and prevent it.
Unfortunately I haven't found a system to prevent missing a short putt, YET.

Redzah

Dtoffee wrote: »

I often do that and do the same with the card I get to mark, never had a problem.

Well, technically it is contrary to the rules of golf by signing the scorecard before your round and is punishable by a DQ, same as if you forget to sign your card after the round and submit it. Rule 6-6b

Signing and Returning Score Card
After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 6-6b:
Disqualification.

Wichita Lineman

I don't sign mine in advance anyway but neither did I realise it was a DQ offence. You live and learn!

Senna

Didn't realise either, especially for a big comp, would be worse than not signing it.

Russman

I think you can sign it whenever you want & as many times as you want, as long as you add a signature after the round is completed.

DiegoWorst

Dtoffee wrote: »

I often do that and do the same with the card I get to mark, never had a problem.

and if you have a disagreement with the marker over a score on a particular hole?

Marker signs the card to verify the score as he recorded it is accurate and correct.
You sign to verify that you agree with his record of your round.

This is hugely important.

Dtoffee

Redzah wrote: »

Well, technically it is contrary to the rules of golf by signing the scorecard before your round and is punishable by a DQ, same as if you forget to sign your card after the round and submit it. Rule 6-6b

Signing and Returning Score Card
After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 6-6b:
Disqualification.

This issue came up in a Golf Monthly thread and they got this reply from the RandA HQ:

Thank you for your email and query on the Rules of Golf.

There is no Rule preventing a player from signing a score card in advance of starting the stipulated round. However, the key is that the signature attests to the score therefore, generally score cards are signed following the round, as this is the seal of approval of the score achieved by the player.

Whilst there is no penalty for signing the card in advance, this practice is not recommended ".

Go straight to the last post:

http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-58507.html


As clear as mud :rolleyes:

Redzah

Dtoffee wrote: »

This issue came up in a Golf Monthly thread and they got this reply from the RandA HQ:

Thank you for your email and query on the Rules of Golf.

There is no Rule preventing a player from signing a score card in advance of starting the stipulated round. However, the key is that the signature attests to the score therefore, generally score cards are signed following the round, as this is the seal of approval of the score achieved by the player.

Whilst there is no penalty for signing the card in advance, this practice is not recommended ".

Go straight to the last post:

http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-58507.html


As clear as mud :rolleyes:

Interesting. What is become very evident from this is that not re-signing the card after the round is a DQ. The act of signing before is not a DQ but not signing (or initialling) again after the round to verify the score is technically a DQ. Therefore, I'd argue that the safeguards you discuss of signing the card before the round are not relevant by the letter of the law. However, if you submit your card as is using this method you would never be found out as it would appear as signed and verified after the round.
So therefore, the next time you do this and win a competition you will have to live with the guilt if you do not re-sign the card afterwards as you will know that technically you should DQ yourself.

Dtoffee

Redzah wrote: »

Interesting. What is become very evident from this is that not re-signing the card after the round is a DQ. The act of signing before is not a DQ but not signing (or initialling) again after the round to verify the score is technically a DQ. Therefore, I'd argue that the safeguards you discuss of signing the card before the round are not relevant by the letter of the law. However, if you submit your card as is using this method you would never be found out as it would appear as signed and verified after the round.
So therefore, the next time you do this and win a competition you will have to live with the guilt if you do not re-sign the card afterwards as you will know that technically you should DQ yourself.

To be fair, that is your interpetation and unless we can produce a definitive answer from the RandA .... its all down to individual interpetations. I always check the cards with opponents at the end of the round anyway. If any issues arise, they are dealt with and initialled immediately and as for guilt? I fail to see any advantage in terms of cheating etc and have absolutely no issues as I'm happy that the scores are correct after checking them. Signing in advance is just my insurance against avoiding handing in the dreaded unsigned card and just because it works for me, I fully accept its not for everyone.

Seve OB

I have never come across anyone signing a card as a player or a marker before or during a round. It is always done after the round. I don't see what the problem is.

If you forget, that is just stupidity, but why on earth would any respectable golfer even consider signing a card before the round commences? This concept baffles me!

Boskowski

DiegoWorst wrote: »

and if you have a disagreement with the marker over a score on a particular hole?

Marker signs the card to verify the score as he recorded it is accurate and correct.
You sign to verify that you agree with his record of your round.

This is hugely important.

I never understood it that way. Of course obvious and blatant discrepancies you may rise an eyebrow over. But really the marker is just supposed to write down whatever score the players says he had at a given hole. I'm not counting the others guys shots. I'm only marking them.

To be perfectly honest - and it may not be in line with the rules technically - the way it works with my regular playing partners and myself is as follows:
We all have our cards in our pockets playing the first. Then typically on the second tee someone says 'any volunteers?' or 'ok, I'll do the cards' or something like that. Then the guy collects all the cards and marks them through the round including his own. After each hole it goes 'call them out' which they do and the guy goes 'ok, two 4s and a 5 for myself' or something like that. Rinse and repeat until we finish the round. Then we sit down at the entrance to the locker, the marker tots it all up, signs and hands the cards over to the player and say 'please check that'. Then he adds up his own card and asks one of the players to sign as a marker. And thats it.

Are we all technically cheating? There never have been any disputes in the rounds I was involved in and I'm pretty certain I never marked anyones or my own score incorrectly.

Edit: In all the years I'm playing I had one single incident where a junior gave me a 5 for his score on a given hole and I went 'are you sure?'. And then he corrected it to a 6. It may have been a genuine mistake and it may not have been, I don't know, but I kept an eye on him for the remainder of the round and there was nothing funny again.

Redzah

Dtoffee wrote: »

To be fair, that is your interpetation and unless we can produce a definitive answer from the RandA .... its all down to individual interpetations. I always check the cards with opponents at the end of the round anyway. If any issues arise, they are dealt with and initialled immediately and as for guilt? I fail to see any advantage in terms of cheating etc and have absolutely no issues as I'm happy that the scores are correct after checking them. Signing in advance is just my insurance against avoiding handing in the dreaded unsigned card and just because it works for me, I fully accept its not for everyone.

I don't think this is my interpretation, I think it's quite clear from the wording in the rule I previously quoted what the chronological order of events needs to be. Forgetting to sign a scorecard is up there with the dumbest things you could do in golf, i don't understand how it could happen personally.

If someone handed my a scorecard signed before the round I'd feel like marking zero points in the total, sign it and hand it back on the first tee.

Senna

Redzah wrote: »

Forgetting to sign a scorecard is up there with the dumbest things you could do in golf, i don't understand how it could happen personally.

If someone handed my a scorecard signed before the round I'd feel like marking zero points in the total, sign it and hand it back on the first tee.

Why does this bother you so much?? It's actually getting amusing now.
I could understand if it was a dodgy practice that could facilitate cheating or bad sportsmanship, but it has no effect whatsoever on anything.

ForeRight

If you have a great card and forget to sign it you are a complete cabaiste. No other way of dressing this up!

You deserve your DQ and to be the laughing stock

Senna

I agree, that's why mine is signed already. Problem??

Dtoffee

Redzah wrote: »

I don't think this is my interpretation, I think it's quite clear from the wording in the rule I previously quoted what the chronological order of events needs to be. Forgetting to sign a scorecard is up there with the dumbest things you could do in golf, i don't understand how it could happen personally.

If someone handed my a scorecard signed before the round I'd feel like marking zero points in the total, sign it and hand it back on the first tee.

The RandA have said there is no penalty and that is their definitive answer, therefore no rule has been broken.

As for you feeling like handing a presigned card back with zero points marked on it, Im not sure where that would leave you if you actually did it.

In relation to the post above from Boskowski stating that one person was marking all the cards, this seems to be a lot more common than I thought. As I understand it: a player should not mark his own card ... maybe Im wrong and its OK ?

Russman

Dtoffee wrote: »

In relation to the post above from Boskowski stating that one person was marking all the cards, this seems to be a lot more common than I thought. As I understand it: a player should not mark his own card ... maybe Im wrong and its OK ?

No, it's not ok, but the situation outlined above does seem to be a pretty common one from what I've seen i.e. one guy doing all the cards for a 3/4 ball. I think it tends to be with regular 3/4 balls who play together all the time. As soon as a "new" player is involved they revert to the way it should be. IMHO it's a product of laziness and convenience rather than anything sinister, not that that makes it right.

Boskowski

On that subject. I know you're not supposed to do your own card which is really the only problem with the one guy doing all the cards. But is it just a guideline or is it a proper rule of golf and punishable?

slave1

Cards should be swapped around to everyone playing on the first tee, end of.
IMHO

Boskowski

slave1 wrote: »

Cards should be swapped around to everyone playing on the first tee, end of.
IMHO

I know that they should be swapped, the question was must they be swapped.

Redzah

Dtoffee wrote: »

The RandA have said there is no penalty and that is their definitive answer, therefore no rule has been broken.

As for you feeling like handing a presigned card back with zero points marked on it, Im not sure where that would leave you if you actually did it.

In relation to the post above from Boskowski stating that one person was marking all the cards, this seems to be a lot more common than I thought. As I understand it: a player should not mark his own card ... maybe Im wrong and its OK ?

Not quite, RandA have said in the response you posted that the key thing is that the signature attests the score. How can the signature attest the score in your case if you sign the card before commencing your round???

ForeRight

It is completely out of order for someone to be marking their own card.

Why is it handy for one person to do all the cards instead of everyone swapping? It's hardly a big ordeal writing a number on a card after a hole which takes about 2 seconds to do.

Boskowski

With the greatest respect lads, none of that is addressing my question.

I tried googling it but nothing definite came up.

And yes while its not a big ordeal it is obviously handy. AFAIK its a widespread practice, we're hardly the only ones doing it. Theres an older thread here confirming that.

ForeRight

Boskowski wrote: »

With the greatest respect lads, none of that is addressing my question.

I tried googling it but nothing definite came up.

And yes while its not a big ordeal it is obviously handy. AFAIK its a widespread practice, we're hardly the only ones doing it. Theres an older thread here confirming that.

How is it handy?

Boskowski

ForeRight wrote: »

How is it handy?

Its less of a dance after every hole with everyone getting a card out and asking around when someone has them all. Especially for the guys who're not doing anything on the day. I know its minuscule but its obviously handy enough 'cos I've seen loads of people doing it.

Edit: I don't really care either way. I simply follow what seems common practice. So I'm not going to advocate it or even take a position on it in an argument. I merely want to know whats right. And I mean right as in by the book right, not what people think should be done. Hence the question whether this is a mere guideline or an actual punishable rule.

ForeRight

I fail to understand how one person asking 4 people what they had then going through 4 cards and writing it out and doing points is handier than one man asking one other man and that's it.

To be honest I'm not comfortable with anyone marking their own card in competition golf.

Boskowski

ForeRight wrote: »

I fail to understand how one person asking 4 people what they had then going through 4 cards and writing it out and doing points is handier than one man asking one other man and that's it.

To be honest I'm not comfortable with anyone marking their own card in competition golf.

For what its worth I think its probably slightly handier especially for the guys not doing anything on the day. Also I never do the points there and then, I just write down the score and do the points after the round.

Its really not worth arguing about as I agree it being such a small advantage if any, but I would like to know whether I'm actually breaking a rule. Cos if that was the case I'd stop doing it.

ForeRight

Boskowski wrote: »

For what its worth I think its probably slightly handier especially for the guys not doing anything on the day. Also I never do the points there and then, I just write down the score and do the points after the round.

Its really not worth arguing about as I agree it being such a small advantage if any, but I would like to know whether I'm actually breaking a rule. Cos if that was the case I'd stop doing it.

I've no idea mate. Maybe it's not against the rules but as I said I disagree with anyone marking their own card

Wichita Lineman

From what I've read there is no actual rule that stipulates a player cannot mark his own card for competition purposes as long as his marker signs it at the end and by so doing confirms that he is happy to stand over all scores as marked. I do believe the person who has signed as a marker has to be present for the entire round but you can have more than one person sign as marker for different holes if necessary - ie if your marker retired after 13 holes he can sign for those 13 and another playing partner can sign for the remaining five as long as they witnessed them.

That would mean there is no issue with one guy marking all scores. After all professionals mark their own card and one of their playing partners then signs as marker.

Having said that we have a local rule posted which stipulates that cards must be swapped at the start of the round.

Jawgap

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

From what I've read there is no actual rule that stipulates a player cannot mark his own card for competition purposes as long as his marker signs it at the end and by so doing confirms that he is happy to stand over all scores as marked. I do believe the person who has signed as a marker has to be present for the entire round but you can have more than one person sign as marker for different holes if necessary - ie if your marker retired after 13 holes he can sign for those 13 and another playing partner can sign for the remaining five as long as they witnessed them.

That would mean there is no issue with one guy marking all scores. After all professionals mark their own card and one of their playing partners then signs as marker.

Having said that we have a local rule posted which stipulates that cards must be swapped at the start of the round.

It's not really a rule in our place, but I've found most card exchanges take place after the first but before the second - before any scores are marked down.

I also remember being told that when I took up the game that a score for each hole must be declared - in other words the player must clearly state their score, rather than the marker put down what they think the score is.

We had one recently where a player returned a card and had not signed in the correct box - he signed the front of the card. AFAIR, the card was rejected and he was dq'ed. He got quite narked about it - I'm not sure why, it's a well known part of the game that you sign for your score.

Russman

Jawgap wrote: »

It's not really a rule in our place, but I've found most card exchanges take place after the first but before the second - before any scores are marked down.

I also remember being told that when I took up the game that a score for each hole must be declared - in other words the player must clearly state their score, rather than the marker put down what they think the score is.

We had one recently where a player returned a card and had not signed in the correct box - he signed the front of the card. AFAIR, the card was rejected and he was dq'ed. He got quite narked about it - I'm not sure why, it's a well known part of the game that you sign for your score.

I'll try to dig it out, but I think he's right to be narked, AFAIK it doesn't matter where on the card as long as its signed or initialled after the score is recorded.

newport2

Russman wrote: »

I'll try to dig it out, but I think he's right to be narked, AFAIK it doesn't matter where on the card as long as its signed or initialled after the score is recorded.

Correct, you can sign or initial anywhere on the card.

newport2

I would read the rule below as the marker and competitor being two seperate people. Otherwise I could mark my own card and not require an additional signature as I would be the marker and competitor myself. How do you hand a card to yourself? I don't think anyone should be marking their own card.

6-6. Scoring In Stroke Play
a. Recording Scores
After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

b. Signing and Returning Score Card
After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

Marker
A “marker’’ is one who is appointed by the Committee to record a competitor’s score in stroke play. He may be a fellow-competitor. He is not a referee.

Competitor
A “competitor’’ is a player in a stroke-play competition. A “fellow-competitor’’ is any person with whom the competitor plays

SOURCE: http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-06/#6-6

Russman

newport2 wrote: »

Correct, you can sign or initial anywhere on the card.

Not sure if the link works but:
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=6&subRuleNum=6&decisionId=0D66532D-BED6-48F7-B9EE-DAD81DB6F92B

Seve OB

I know it happens when 1 out of a regular fourball marks all the cards. I've often played with absolute strangers who insisted they mark all the cards, but I will always make sure I am marking someone elses. It happened in our club where there were instructions issued to make sure everyone was aware that this practice is not acceptable. It's not and I really can't fathom why some people think it is acceptable because it is handy or for whatever reason. Not marking the points till the end of the round is irrelevant.

Boskowski wrote: »

With the greatest respect lads, none of that is addressing my question.

I tried googling it but nothing definite came up.

And yes while its not a big ordeal it is obviously handy. AFAIK its a widespread practice, we're hardly the only ones doing it. Theres an older thread here confirming that.

You didn't google very hard! I found this in the first few results and knowing this guy is well known for good guidance on the rules of golf it was the first click I made.

http://www.barryrhodes.com/2009/08/rules-relating-to-score-cards.html

The player should hand their card to their marker at the beginning of the round and after each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it.

but if you don't believe him, why not actually just look up the actual rule book?

6-6. Scoring in Stroke Play
a. Recording Scores
After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.
b. Signing and Returning Score Card
After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible

Most cards have space for the markers score. I will mark someone elses card but also fill in my own scores in the space provided (or maybe in the space for player d) and when I am given my card at the end of the round, I can double check it against what I have recorded. Any differences can then be discussed with the marker. Simple really.

But forget about the actual rule. Do you even understand English? A scorecard has space for a markers signature and a competitors signature. Nowhere is there space for a verifiers signature for when a competitor marks his own score!

And as for whoever reckons the pro's actually mark their own card........... really?????????

Seve OB

Russman wrote: »

I'll try to dig it out, but I think he's right to be narked, AFAIK it doesn't matter where on the card as long as its signed or initialled after the score is recorded.

maybe the issue was because he signed the front of the card. I think in that case, the competitor was probably incorrect

Boskowski

If we're getting into semantics...

The marker does hand it to me after he signed. It's just that I handed it to him first.

@SeveOB

I'm not disagreeing with you (except maybe with the pro thing) but you could have explained all that in a slightly less patronising tone. It makes people more willing to accept the points you're making.