Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

mahoney_j

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Straw in dry cow diet? Why?
Your diluting a cows energy intake by putting it in. If you want to stop them getting over fat just make slightly less quality stuff. Instead of reducing her energy intake. 68 dmd with a 8 week dry period is loads. Provided cows are in 3+ of a bcs.
Had this discussion yesterday with siobhan kavanagh. Those were her exact words.

BTW never fed straw to drys here just horse in the silage.

She also said that 8 weeks is minimum she'd give a cow dry which would be our opinion too.
At 8 weeks dry the cow only has 5 weeks to build condition. One week is gone for her drying up - where most lads starve her to dry her up (feed her straw- which drastically reduces energy intake) and then 2 weeks before calving all her energy goes to the calf so shes only at bare maintainance

Just cause Siobhan or anyone else says something don't mean we have to fall and implement it hook line and sinker .are we unable to make decisions for ourselves anymore without relying on a general in farm specific advice ???.wuestion would u intentionally make sub 70 Dmd silage off your own block when u do so much measuring ? ???,no way in hell I would as it would mean grass got too strong and I didn't react quick enough in pulling it out at the time .straw dose have a role to play in a dry cow diet I feel as it prepairs the gut with rough fibre pre calving for moving onto meal and milking diet if I was milking through winter all stock would be milked to 50 days pre calving,6 weeks plus a week allowing for short gestation bulls used nowadays
If a cow is fed and managed correctly through the backend and dried off in correct bcs there should be no issue .problem is a lot of guys strip condition off cows through October and November over estimating the feed value off low dm autumn grass

Keepgrowing

mahoney_j wrote: »

Just cause Siobhan or anyone else says something don't mean we have to fall and implement it hook line and sinker .are we unable to make decisions for ourselves anymore without relying on a general in farm specific advice ???.wuestion would u intentionally make sub 70 Dmd silage off your own block when u do so much measuring ? ???,no way in hell I would as it would mean grass got too strong and I didn't react quick enough in pulling it out at the time .straw dose have a role to play in a dry cow diet I feel as it prepairs the gut with rough fibre pre calving for moving onto meal and milking diet if I was milking through winter all stock would be milked to 50 days pre calving,6 weeks plus a week allowing for short gestation bulls used nowadays
If a cow is fed and managed correctly through the backend and dried off in correct bcs there should be no issue .problem is a lot of guys strip condition off cows through October and November over estimating the feed value off low dm autumn grass

+1

Keepgrowing

yewtree wrote: »

It would be very impressive achievement, based on a current performance thats a stocking rate of over 4lu/ha? to get to the 2000kg/ha your planning to increase SR rather than increased production /cow?

We are growing the grass so need more cows to graze it and produce more kgms per ha. Yield per cow will probably drop as a result of upping sr. Land to buy here is 12-15k per acre and €300 to lease so it's fairly dear feed if your cutting silage off it.

blackdog1

GrasstoMilk wrote:

Heal the gut? What would straw do for it?

Gives it roughage. Also essential if you have high nitrogen levels in your silage to soak that up.

yosemitesam1

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Heal the gut? What would straw do for it?

Provides something for the bacteria in gut to work on, exactly the same as in a person pig etc only we can get the benefit with less fibrous feed since theres no rumen to use most of it up first.

This is one of the things I really dislike about the teagasc/nz advise, in that everything is based on viewing the cow as a machine who deserves as little input as possible and can't allow for the benefits that are very hard if not impossible to show up in trials. If lads are getting good results with or without something and cows are healthy thats all that matters.

GrasstoMilk

mahoney_j wrote: »

Just cause Siobhan or anyone else says something don't mean we have to fall and implement it hook line and sinker .are we unable to make decisions for ourselves anymore without relying on a general in farm specific advice ???.wuestion would u intentionally make sub 70 Dmd silage off your own block when u do so much measuring ? ???,no way in hell I would as it would mean grass got too strong and I didn't react quick enough in pulling it out at the time .straw dose have a role to play in a dry cow diet I feel as it prepairs the gut with rough fibre pre calving for moving onto meal and milking diet if I was milking through winter all stock would be milked to 50 days pre calving,6 weeks plus a week allowing for short gestation bulls used nowadays
If a cow is fed and managed correctly through the backend and dried off in correct bcs there should be no issue .problem is a lot of guys strip condition off cows through October and November over estimating the feed value off low dm autumn grass

I didnt say make no high dmd silage.
I said make 68/70 for drys.
If there dried off in right bcs they don't need any more.

Make your high dmd bales for milkers and main cut 1st week of June for your drys

I'm just telling you the research done my teagasc says straw has no benefit to a cow before calving and that your reducing her energy intake when she needs it most. Don't see why that is unbelievable?

GrasstoMilk

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Provides something for the bacteria in gut to work on, exactly the same as in a person pig etc only we can get the benefit with less fibrous feed since theres no rumen to use most of it up first.

This is one of the things I really dislike about the teagasc/nz advise, in that everything is based on viewing the cow as a machine who deserves as little input as possible and can't allow for the benefits that are very hard if not impossible to show up in trials. If lads are getting good results with or without something and cows are healthy thats all that matters.

I'm just telling you what I was told during the week and it happens to be my line if thinking too.
Where That Long Fibre thing cones from us the US, they chop there forage to milimeter's. It's like saw dust. That's where it's needed.
If straw is needed so bad why aren't we feeding it year round? I never have the watery dung problem other lads seen to have. Even after all the rain at the weekend the herd here still had good solid dungs

leg wax

straw is needed for the diet feeder men, so they can justify buying one....:D

mahoney_j

leg wax wrote: »

straw is needed for the diet feeder men, so they can justify buying one....:D

Proof ???

jaymla627

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Provides something for the bacteria in gut to work on, exactly the same as in a person pig etc only we can get the benefit with less fibrous feed since theres no rumen to use most of it up first.

This is one of the things I really dislike about the teagasc/nz advise, in that everything is based on viewing the cow as a machine who deserves as little input as possible and can't allow for the benefits that are very hard if not impossible to show up in trials. If lads are getting good results with or without something and cows are healthy thats all that matters.

The funny thing about the ucd expirement is poor ole siobhan is trying to make the impossible happen, her blinkers for grass and what milk it will support in late lactation mean the very expensive expirement that is lyons won't come within asses roar of her 600 plus kgs of milk solids, seen some notes at the ploughing regard herd performance their and it's pretty poor to be fair considering the technology/facilities at their disposal and the supposedly elite herd they have to hand

Keepgrowing

5.2 BF
4.15 p

Loving this weather

Mooooo

jaymla627 wrote: »

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Provides something for the bacteria in gut to work on, exactly the same as in a person pig etc only we can get the benefit with less fibrous feed since theres no rumen to use most of it up first.

This is one of the things I really dislike about the teagasc/nz advise, in that everything is based on viewing the cow as a machine who deserves as little input as possible and can't allow for the benefits that are very hard if not impossible to show up in trials. If lads are getting good results with or without something and cows are healthy thats all that matters.

The funny thing about the ucd expirement is poor ole siobhan is trying to make the impossible happen, her blinkers for grass and what milk it will support in late lactation mean the very expensive expirement that is lyons won't come within asses roar of her 600 plus kgs of milk solids, seen some notes at the ploughing regard herd performance their and it's pretty poor to be fair considering the technology/facilities at their disposal and the supposedly elite herd they have to hand

There is no grass only, They are feeding silage and up on 6kg meal in the demo herd in late lactation. The idea is grass,meal and grass silage. That's it as majority of spring farms don't use maize or wholecrop etc

Mooooo

Keepgrowing wrote: »

5.2 BF
4.15 p

Loving this weather

Your finishing up early nov yeah? What'll you feed with the silage for milkers once housed?

leg wax

mahoney_j wrote: »

Proof ???

of me taking the piss .......ah ........

Keepgrowing

Mooooo wrote: »

Your finishing up early nov yeah? What'll you feed with the silage for milkers once housed?

Will be going well if grass for 2 more weeks. It's there but I'd prefer it in Feb iykwim.

3 kg 18% nut with 80D >40% DM bales. Nuts bought on price so whoever can supply the highest energy nut at that p will get the order for the winter. It's a fairly uncomplicated simple system for similar men.

Drafting any low Bcs and early calving (milking phuck all first calvers) and any slow walkers for dry off tomorrow am. Will reduce demand somewhat

degetme

Signpost wrote: »

How are you planning on improving yield going forward? I'm probably similar enough in the sounds of what you are describing, maybe about 3.8p but yield around the 5000-5500 average, 500-650 meal. Got lost along the way being obsessed with solids (and didn't quite get there but reneging a small bit as I'm not going cross bred) and regretting my yield now. I'm on about 8-10 week dry period too.

You have good protein percentages there. You must be at the 4.50 protein Mark now? 4.21p and fat 4.47 here.

Increase average lactation length to near six
fty
increase stocking rate to three
Inrease meal to 800kg cow
Milk ten months of year.
Breed a more high solids cow that will respond to 800kg meal and grass.
High six week calving rate starting 5th Feb

mahoney_j

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I didnt say make no high dmd silage.
I said make 68/70 for drys.
If there dried off in right bcs they don't need any more.

Make your high dmd bales for milkers and main cut 1st week of June for your drys

I'm just telling you the research done my teagasc says straw has no benefit to a cow before calving and that your reducing her energy intake when she needs it most. Don't see why that is unbelievable?

Do u intentionally make sub 70 Dmd silage ??i don't forcreasons outlined in earlier post .just cause tegasc /Siobhan etc give that advice dosnt mean its all correct I wouldn't consider 68/70 Dmd good enough for dry cows

Mooooo

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Mooooo wrote: »

Your finishing up early nov yeah? What'll you feed with the silage for milkers once housed?

Will be going well if grass for 2 more weeks. It's there but I'd prefer it in Feb iykwim.

3 kg 18% nut with 80D >40% DM bales. Nuts bought on price so whoever can supply the highest energy nut at that p will get the order for the winter. It's a fairly uncomplicated simple system for similar men.

Drafting any low Bcs and early calving (milking phuck all first calvers) and any slow walkers for dry off tomorrow am. Will reduce demand somewhat

Will that be the diet for the fresh girls too? I find it difficult to consistently make very good silage, have ranged in the last few years from 68 dmd to 82 dmd and 11% p to 18% p in the pit .

mf240

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I didnt say make no high dmd silage.
I said make 68/70 for drys.
If there dried off in right bcs they don't need any more.

Make your high dmd bales for milkers and main cut 1st week of June for your drys

I'm just telling you the research done my teagasc says straw has no benefit to a cow before calving and that your reducing her energy intake when she needs it most. Don't see why that is unbelievable?

Your right about straw having zero energy.

But if you had super silage and cows were getting to fat and having monsters of calves you could use some straw to dilute it down.

Keepgrowing

Mooooo wrote: »

Will that be the diet for the fresh girls too? I find it difficult to consistently make very good silage, have ranged in the last few years from 68 dmd to 82 dmd and 11% p to 18% p in the pit .

All cows treated as one here it used to be awfully complicated but we stopped using mixer wagon and bought a Tedder

RightTurnClyde

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I'm just telling you what I was told during the week and it happens to be my line if thinking too.
Where That Long Fibre thing cones from us the US, they chop there forage to milimeter's. It's like saw dust. That's where it's needed.
If straw is needed so bad why aren't we feeding it year round? I never have the watery dung problem other lads seen to have. Even after all the rain at the weekend the herd here still had good solid dungs

IIRC Don't you house a lot of your dry cows on straw beds. ?

mahoney_j

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

IIRC Don't you house a lot of your dry cows on straw beds. ?

I'm betting there eating a nice wedge of that straw every time it's put in fresh .......

yewtree

Where Cows are dried off in the righ BCS then silage between 68 and 70dmd is ideal. Never heard a serious argument based on energy intake that they need anything with it. Straw isn't doing any harm but it's any unnecessary complication in a lot of cases

yosemitesam1

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

I'm just telling you what I was told during the week and it happens to be my line if thinking too.
Where That Long Fibre thing cones from us the US, they chop there forage to milimeter's. It's like saw dust. That's where it's needed.
If straw is needed so bad why aren't we feeding it year round? I never have the watery dung problem other lads seen to have. Even after all the rain at the weekend the herd here still had good solid dungs

this started as a discussion about using shorter dry periods and possible needs for specific feeding for that, if your on an 8-10 week dry period you can probably do whatever you want and get away with it. But pushing that down to under 6 weeks and you really have to start treating the cow as best as you can and that will mean a diet with good energy+protein but straw is likely to be of benefit in that diet too by maintaining a more robust digestive system in general.

On straw inclusion in general in the diet, that line of thinking came from lads like van soest in the US who were looking at the whole fundamentals of ruminant and other non-ruminant herbivore nutrition, not just dairy cows. Out of the last 8-10 million years ruminants have been around its only in the last 100 years that they would have had access to high quality forage for more than a few weeks of the year, I dont see why there isnt a good possibility of some sort of unknown function/need that is met by a poorer quality forage.
Ultimately we are walking on the ceiling of an unknown universe and are very quick to congratulate ourselves when things go right often when we really dont know the finer details of the world around us.

whelan2

Different folks different strokes, dairy cows here get round bales silage and calsea pre calver mineral blocks. Sucklers get round bales of silage and a big square bale of oaten straw every monday. They eat the silage first and eventually finish the straw. They are in too good condition. As said before once bcs is in order all's good.

RightTurnClyde

mahoney_j wrote: »

I'm betting there eating a nice wedge of that straw every time it's put in fresh .......

They are of course. I had all the cows on straw years ago. Regardless of the quality of silage put in front of them, youd have a big % of the cows in the shed after bedding chomping away.

kowtow

yosemitesam1 wrote:

On straw inclusion in general in the diet, that line of thinking came from lads like van soest in the US who were looking at the whole fundamentals of ruminant and other non-ruminant herbivore nutrition, not just dairy cows. Out of the last 8-10 million years ruminants have been around its only in the last 100 years that they would have had access to high quality forage for more than a few weeks of the year, I dont see why there isnt a good possibility of some sort of unknown function/need that is met by a poorer quality forage. Ultimately we are walking on the ceiling of an unknown universe and are very quick to congratulate ourselves when things go right often when we really dont know the finer details of the world around us.

My own very unscientific point of view would be that if the rumen is a fermentation vessel, presumably we are not making (as full) use of it with already fermented silage as we would be with, say, grass or hay. It's plausible surely that the microbe content of the rumen might need exercise during the dry period if it is to be in good heart for the grass it will process in the following year?

Would that also be connected to the common suggestion that longer chopped silage is better for rumen function? Does more lignin mean more exercise?

My vet gave me a very comprehensive lecture on rumen bacteria when we had a cow in bits post twins this year and sure enough his recipe of 'rumen starter' along with enough modern medicine to keep her liver working while the rumen recovered certainly put her back in full health... but of course one cow doesn't make a proof!

awaywithyou

Greenfield got a nice price for their sept milk...... Have to say very impressive... At least I think so anyway....

Sillycave

Have 5 late calvers (calved end of Jul to mid of Sep) who are all 3 and 4th lactation (all Hofr)
All are milking well (about 30 litres/day)
I have no intention of milking them pass Xmas day as am going to try and dry everything else off and not bothered to milk on a couple over Xmas into Jan (for once)
We would normally milk a couple on for this period (i know this irks many on this forum giving cheap milk to our processors but thats another days discussions)
Anyway the father has an intention to try and dry these up with the rest but i don't think this will work (plus there not incalf as i pulled the bull before they calved)
I would rather sell them on to some winter milkers put mightn't get much for them (any idea on prices?)
Has anyone else a suggestion apart from the hook?

Mooooo

Advertise away on done deal etc and see how the market is, . If they calved Aug September you could advertise them as autumn calvers