Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

Buford T. Justice XIX

German Dairy farmers quitting due to low prices.

http://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/news/14673927.German_farmers_quitting_dairying_as_high_costs_of_production_take_their_toll/

Mooooo

Is the research on the tb resistance available anywhere, would be skeptical till I have seen all info. Esp seeing as it's the response to the skin test can be the issue as much as whether or not they actually get it. Dunno if it can be done or not but surely some portion of what they spend could be put towards improving the testing method

Keepgrowing

Mooooo wrote: »

Is the research on the tb resistance available anywhere, would be skeptical till I have seen all info. Esp seeing as it's the response to the skin test can be the issue as much as whether or not they actually get it. Dunno if it can be done or not but surely some portion of what they spend could be put towards improving the testing method

I'd say it's a sales gimmick for UK customers where TB is out of control. Perhaps not but I'd have expected a bigger splash when news broke

yosemitesam1

Keepgrowing wrote: »

I'd say it's a sales gimmick for UK customers where TB is out of control. Perhaps not but I'd have expected a bigger splash when news broke

Its based on a couple of hundred thousand animals from infected herds, some lines tended to be more affected and others less, a few marker genes gotten from that. Dont see why it shouldn't be reliable

jaymla627

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Its based on a couple of hundred thousand animals from infected herds, some lines tended to be more affected and others less, a few marker genes gotten from that. Dont see why it shouldn't be reliable

Given the blind faith lads have in genomic ebi sires, can't see how this index is anymore our less a gimmick, imported irish stock that guys got into to replace their own reactors also had very poor resistance rates, would go hand in hand with ai companies here only starting to get serious about health traits in genomic sires the last two years was a after - thought before this

Mooooo

With regard to tb it's actually finding the outbreaks or cause of it is the issue. Have known lads locked up for a bit with reactors every so often in the test and them killing out without lesions only for a cow to be sent to the factory as a cull having being tested every 60 days clear and she was the one riddled with it. AFAIK her immune system didn't respond to the skin test hence why she ended up going clear in those supposedly. I dunno maybe greysides could clear it up but with the inaccuracy of testing for it I would be skeptical on that front is all. Now of certain lines are coming up with better resistance it will all help but all the money they spent on trying to eradicate it if they put some portion into research on the test methods it would surely return.

mahoney_j

jaymla627 wrote: »

Given the blind faith lads have in genomic ebi sires, can't see how this index is anymore our less a gimmick, imported irish stock that guys got into to replace their own reactors also had very poor resistance rates, would go hand in hand with ai companies here only starting to get serious about health traits in genomic sires the last two years was a after - thought before this

It ain't blind faith .personally see it as a gimmick and sales talk .pockets of country have high incidences of tb releating to badger sets ,deer etc .dont matter a ****e about supposed resistance if a cow comes in contact with a trough an infected badger was in or dead carcase faces etc there's avert high chance she will become infected .health traits a key component of genomics and bull selection ,I've 2 >400 ebi bull calves tested this year with excellent production ,solids and fertility figures but -5 and -7 for health .ruled out straight away

jaymla627

mahoney_j wrote: »

It ain't blind faith .personally see it as a gimmick and sales talk .pockets of country have high incidences of tb releating to badger sets ,deer etc .dont matter a ****e about supposed resistance if a cow comes in contact with a trough an infected badger was in or dead carcase faces etc there's avert high chance she will become infected .health traits a key component of genomics and bull selection ,I've 2 >400 ebi bull calves tested this year with excellent production ,solids and fertility figures but -5 and -7 for health .ruled out straight away

Given that 6 of the top 15 ebi bulls on the active bull list are minus for health, i really dont see how its a key component our has been up to now,maybe they are only making a effort now to select bulls with good health traits, the hertiability for health is estimated at 30% too so its well worth breeding for....
Dismissing a company like genus for research and bringing out gimmicks is laughable their the biggest a.i company in the world and have worldclass research facilities , the thing i cant understand is if irish genetics are so revolutionary and ground breaking thanks to ebi why are other countries not betting down the doors of the icbf and buying semen from them

Buford T. Justice XIX

jaymla627 wrote: »

Given that 6 of the top 15 ebi bulls on the active bull list are minus for health, i really dont see how its a key component our has been up to now,maybe they are only making a effort now to select bulls with good health traits, the hertiability for health is estimated at 30% too so its well worth breeding for....
Dismissing a company like genus for research and bringing out gimmicks is laughable their the biggest a.i company in the world and have worldclass research facilities , the thing i cant understand is if irish genetics are so revolutionary and ground breaking thanks to ebi why are other countries not betting down the doors of the icbf and buying semen from them

Ebi is specifically done for grass based production which requires a 365 day calving interval.

Indoor systems don't require a 365 day CI. The only other equivalent system is BW in NZ.

mahoney_j

jaymla627 wrote: »

Given that 6 of the top 15 ebi bulls on the active bull list are minus for health, i really dont see how its a key component our has been up to now,maybe they are only making a effort now to select bulls with good health traits, the hertiability for health is estimated at 30% too so its well worth breeding for....
Dismissing a company like genus for research and bringing out gimmicks is laughable their the biggest a.i company in the world and have worldclass research facilities , the thing i cant understand is if irish genetics are so revolutionary and ground breaking thanks to ebi why are other countries not betting down the doors of the icbf and buying semen from them

High ebi Irish stock in huge demand in uk for last few years ,brother based in oz and works in dairy industry both there New Zealand and America and ebi and Irish Bulls are widely used and talked about out there .puts ur theory to bed .on the tbf resistance that's my view and one which lits of others share .focus shouldn't be on tb resistance should be on eradication

mahoney_j

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Ebi is specifically done for grass based production which requires a 365 day calving interval.

Indoor systems don't require a 365 day CI. The only other equivalent system is BW in NZ.

Personally think ebi is better as it is a full package index ,beef element is very important on lots of Irish farms .biggest problem I think with it is lots don't understand how to use it to there advantage nor understand d it .thevway it combines with herd plus and milk recording is truly excellent

Buford T. Justice XIX

mahoney_j wrote: »

Personally think ebi is better as it is a full package index ,beef element is very important on lots of Irish farms .biggest problem I think with it is lots don't understand how to use it to there advantage nor understand d it .thevway it combines with herd plus and milk recording is truly excellent

It's great when used as a measure, not so much when it's used as a target.

Buford T. Justice XIX

mahoney_j wrote: »

High ebi Irish stock in huge demand in uk for last few years ,brother based in oz and works in dairy industry both there New Zealand and America and ebi and Irish Bulls are widely used and talked about out there .puts ur theory to bed .on the tbf resistance that's my view and one which lits of others share .focus shouldn't be on tb resistance should be on eradication

I doubt TB can be eradicated, tbh. I remember coming across a report last year saying TB in the cattle population was at similar levels to the human population and there is little hope of eradication in the human population, just achieving a manageable level.

yosemitesam1

mahoney_j wrote: »

It ain't blind faith .personally see it as a gimmick and sales talk .pockets of country have high incidences of tb releating to badger sets ,deer etc .dont matter a ****e about supposed resistance if a cow comes in contact with a trough an infected badger was in or dead carcase faces etc there's avert high chance she will become infected .health traits a key component of genomics and bull selection ,I've 2 >400 ebi bull calves tested this year with excellent production ,solids and fertility figures but -5 and -7 for health .ruled out straight away

It isn't just a gimmick, if you wanted to take it to an exreme and compare European breeds (bos taurus) to zebu type (bos indicus) on resistance to any disease or parasite there would be a substantial difference, there should be variation within dairy breeds and allow for improvement

Keepgrowing

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I doubt TB can be eradicated, tbh. I remember coming across a report last year saying TB in the cattle population was at similar levels to the human population and there is little hope of eradication in the human population, just achieving a manageable level.

Difficulty with eradication among humans is the fact that you can't cull the reactors

jaymla627

mahoney_j wrote: »

High ebi Irish stock in huge demand in uk for last few years ,brother based in oz and works in dairy industry both there New Zealand and America and ebi and Irish Bulls are widely used and talked about out there .puts ur theory to bed .on the tbf resistance that's my view and one which lits of others share .focus shouldn't be on tb resistance should be on eradication

Irish stock where in huge demand in the UK because when milk was flying Clark and co could source heifers/cows here for half the price of what English stock where making, was on a farm in Wales in a Tb hotspot who was receiving 2000 pounds sterling compo per cow for Tb, irish heifers where been landed in his yard for 1100 sterling, alot of English farmers that I visited weren't overly impressed with the quality of Irish animals, see Clark is busy at the minute bringing truckloads of cows from Germany to England where's the demand for Irish stock

mahoney_j

jaymla627 wrote: »

Irish stock where in huge demand in the UK because when milk was flying Clark and co could source heifers/cows here for half the price of what English stock where making, was on a farm in Wales in a Tb hotspot who was receiving 2000 pounds sterling compo per cow for Tb, irish heifers where been landed in his yard for 1100 sterling, alot of English farmers that I visited weren't overly impressed with the quality of Irish animals, see Clark is busy at the minute bringing truckloads of cows from Germany to England where's the demand for Irish stock

Why cause they are grass based ,convert grass rather than tmr to more milk sokids and milk kg ,are fertile and last in herds .more and more British herds moving away from that high milk ,high mantinance cow .

mahoney_j

jaymla627 wrote: »

Irish stock where in huge demand in the UK because when milk was flying Clark and co could source heifers/cows here for half the price of what English stock where making, was on a farm in Wales in a Tb hotspot who was receiving 2000 pounds sterling compo per cow for Tb, irish heifers where been landed in his yard for 1100 sterling, alot of English farmers that I visited weren't overly impressed with the quality of Irish animals, see Clark is busy at the minute bringing truckloads of cows from Germany to England where's the demand for Irish stock

On the demand drying up for Irish stock can't comment cause I don't know nor do I know anything re German stock ,could it be that it just boils down to economics ,the Irish guy selling could be in a better place financially and not willing to offload wuality stock on the cheap and maby the br farmer can't afford to pay what's been asked ????

Keepgrowing

jaymla627 wrote: »

Irish stock where in huge demand in the UK because when milk was flying Clark and co could source heifers/cows here for half the price of what English stock where making, was on a farm in Wales in a Tb hotspot who was receiving 2000 pounds sterling compo per cow for Tb, irish heifers where been landed in his yard for 1100 sterling, alot of English farmers that I visited weren't overly impressed with the quality of Irish animals, see Clark is busy at the minute bringing truckloads of cows from Germany to England where's the demand for Irish stock

Visited a farm in Wales a few wks ago milking 2000 of them and he's delighted. Buying all semen off ebi

yewtree

jaymla627 wrote: »

Irish stock where in huge demand in the UK because when milk was flying Clark and co could source heifers/cows here for half the price of what English stock where making, was on a farm in Wales in a Tb hotspot who was receiving 2000 pounds sterling compo per cow for Tb, irish heifers where been landed in his yard for 1100 sterling, alot of English farmers that I visited weren't overly impressed with the quality of Irish animals, see Clark is busy at the minute bringing truckloads of cows from Germany to England where's the demand for Irish stock

Been to Wales and Cumbria over the last few years and all of farmers that imported irish stock were delighted with them.
A point made by a few of the farmers was they no longer needed to import any stock as there herds are fertile and so are generating surplus heifers.
The demand for stock on high input herds is driven in large part by the inability to generate sufficient replacements due to infertility. There is a lot of high ebi semen been sold in the uk all the major Irish ai companies have agents in the uk.

jaymla627

mahoney_j wrote: »

On the demand drying up for Irish stock can't comment cause I don't know nor do I know anything re German stock ,could it be that it just boils down to economics ,the Irish guy selling could be in a better place financially and not willing to offload wuality stock on the cheap and maby the br farmer can't afford to pay what's been asked ????

Yeah I guess your right the base cow used at 0 ebi from 1995 done 367 kgs of solids at 3 79%fat and 3.3% pr, just looked up the Co-op average for glanbia suppliers for 2015 and 376kgs of solids at 4.05%bf and 3.55pr was the figures.....
For all the blowing about ebi/grass based efficent cows do you reckon a increase of 9kgs of milk solids in the prevailing 20 odd years is progress, some lads are handy pleased if it is, ebi might be working brilliantly for you and other guys but it has done sweet f**k all for the average farmer picking high ebi bulls every year thinking he's improving his herd with these top class genomic irish bulls

mahoney_j

jaymla627 wrote: »

Yeah I guess your right the base cow used at 0 ebi from 1995 done 367 kgs of solids at 3 79%fat and 3.3% pr, just looked up the Co-op average for glanbia suppliers for 2015 and 376kgs of solids at 4.05%bf and 3.55pr was the figures.....
For all the blowing about ebi/grass based efficent cows do you reckon a increase of 9kgs of milk solids in the prevailing 20 odd years is progress, some lads are handy pleased if it is, ebi might be working brilliantly for you and other guys but it has done sweet f**k all for the average farmer picking high ebi bulls every year thinking he's improving his herd with these top class genomic irish bulls

Come on you know that's just an average ,I bet the higher end of that average is a long way ahead and bottom a lot narrower .we can blow about it cause we embraced it and reaping the benefits rather than constantly picking holes sitting on the fence ...........done sweet f all for average Irish farmer ,some statement .do u go to open days ,attend disc groups etc etc lots of average farmers in them would have a vastly different opinion to yours ,any groups I'm in or events I go to ,neighbours ,friends etc id regard as above average and progressive thinking ,there's always a few exceptions though who just constantly go against the grain often without foundation

jaymla627

mahoney_j wrote: »

Come on you know that's just an average ,I bet the higher end of that average is a long way ahead and bottom a lot narrower .we can blow about it cause we embraced it and reaping the benefits rather than constantly picking holes sitting on the fence ...........done sweet f all for average Irish farmer ,some statement .do u go to open days ,attend disc groups etc etc lots of average farmers in them would have a vastly different opinion to yours ,any groups I'm in or events I go to ,neighbours ,friends etc id regard as above average and progressive thinking ,there's always a few exceptions though who just constantly go against the grain often without foundation

When compiling any data the average is the base referance it's the middle ground taking the top and bottom guys into account, theirs no point in referencing the top 10% of farmers who ebi is a success for as the referance point when 90% of dairy herds are seeing only minor improvements in their herds.....
The figures I used aren't made up and easily referanced where is my flaw in my argument, would rather have a sound/solid opinion and go my own way then been a sheep following the crowd.. .

mahoney_j

jaymla627 wrote: »

When compiling any data the average is the base referance it's the middle ground taking the top and bottom guys into account, theirs no point in referencing the top 10% of farmers who ebi is a success for as the referance point when 90% of dairy herds are seeing only minor improvements in their herds.....
The figures I used aren't made up and easily referanced where is my flaw in my argument, would rather have a sound/solid opinion and go my own way then been a sheep following the crowd.. .

Jaysus I give up

yewtree

jaymla627 wrote: »

Yeah I guess your right the base cow used at 0 ebi from 1995 done 367 kgs of solids at 3 79%fat and 3.3% pr, just looked up the Co-op average for glanbia suppliers for 2015 and 376kgs of solids at 4.05%bf and 3.55pr was the figures.....
For all the blowing about ebi/grass based efficent cows do you reckon a increase of 9kgs of milk solids in the prevailing 20 odd years is progress, some lads are handy pleased if it is, ebi might be working brilliantly for you and other guys but it has done sweet f**k all for the average farmer picking high ebi bulls every year thinking he's improving his herd with these top class genomic irish bulls[/quote

Your comparing the performance of the top 20% herds with the average of all herds. Only about 25% of herds would have been milk recording in 1995 and the coop performance relates to all herds. A real comparison would be to compare coop performance from 2000 to 2015 and see the differences. at the very least your exAmple shows the the average farmer has massively improved their milk solids %, would this have happened without the ebi?

alps

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Visited a farm in Wales a few wks ago milking 2000 of them and he's delighted. Buying all semen off ebi

Liked by all systems, high input included for their robustness and ability to last, but the negative is that they are next to worthless as culls. I don't know if this price treatment is dished out by the factories towards all imported cattle or if it is just to Irish cows.

Keepgrowing

alps wrote: »

Liked by all systems, high input included for their robustness and ability to last, but the negative is that they are next to worthless as culls. I don't know if this price treatment is dished out by the factories towards all imported cattle or if it is just to Irish cows.

Agreed, and most are buying as seed stock

kowtow

jaymla627 wrote:

ebi might be working brilliantly for you and other guys but it has done sweet f**k all for the average farmer picking high ebi bulls every year thinking he's improving his herd with these top class genomic irish bulls

Without being too harsh about it, the future does rather rely on the average farmer not making money, so that the best farms are able to succeed.

It's the implication that everyone can be the best by simply doing what they are told which is the most worrying thing about the cheerleading for expansion... at least the way I saw it last time around.

Timmaay

Cows still going through the little grass I still have too quick at the minute. I'm giving them about 7.5kgdm silage and 2.5meal at the minute, back 1l in the milk this mornings collection. I'll definitely need to bump up the feeding to about 10kg silage, what sort of meal should I be feeding?

blackdog1

Timmaay wrote:

Cows still going through the little grass I still have too quick at the minute. I'm giving them about 7.5kgdm silage and 2.5meal at the minute, back 1l in the milk this mornings collection. I'll definitely need to bump up the feeding to about 10kg silage, what sort of meal should I be feeding?

Any maize or whole crop available?. 10kg of either would sort you without increasing meal