Morning traffic solution?

Confucius say

Just discussing this at work. There are currently pretty much no traffic problems on any of our commuter routes in the mornings. I come in from north side Dublin to City centre by bicycle and some of us commute from as far as navan and Louth.

It's all down to schools being off.

Shouldn't we look at this closely and try and find a solution to parents blocking up the roads every morning? Is there any other way to get kids to school? I walked or took the bus.

If the traffic could stay how it is we would have far less stressful lives!

LXFlyer

Don't forget the teachers who all drive to school term.

cgcsb

It's a modern cotton wool cultural phenomenon, women in SUVS parking up on the sidewalk to drop off their 15 year old kids to save them a 1 or 2 km walk/cycle/bus ride. It's also making our next generation clinically obese.

MagicMarker

cgcsb wrote: »

It's a modern cotton wool cultural phenomenon, women in SUVS parking up on the sidewalk to drop off their 15 year old kids to save them a 1 or 2 km walk/cycle/bus ride. It's also making our next generation clinically obese.

No it's not.

Confucius say

MagicMarker wrote: »

No it's not.

Your abrupt, curt, know it all answers have no place here thanks. Do you have anything to contribute?

Idbatterim

the solution is simple, sort out the appalling rail infrastructure here would be a good start. MN and DU, along with a few smaller schemes. Build the southern bypass and have a full ring road...

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

the solution is simple, sort out the appalling rail infrastructure here would be a good start. MN and DU, along with a few smaller schemes. Build the southern bypass and have a full ring road...

??

cgcsb

MagicMarker wrote: »

No it's not.

What's not?

Carawaystick

It's mainly because drivers go on holidays when Schools off.

Tabnabs

Schools, universities, associated staff and lucky workers on holiday. It's the summer holiday season. No single source or cure. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Idbatterim

??

sorry, meant to say eastern bypass...

cgcsb

I'd say we're a long way off an Eastern Bypass. It'd be a post DARTu, Metro, BRT, various cycling schemes kind of time frame.

Victor

Confucius say wrote: »

Your abrupt, curt, know it all answers have no place here thanks. Do you have anything to contribute?

If you have a problem with a post, report it.

MagicMarker wrote: »

No it's not.

We would be grateful if you could post more meaningful comments.

Moderator

Victor

There are multiple factors.

* Aside from schools and colleges being off, quite a few parents also take the summer off to mind those children.
* The weather is better - there is less desire to be cosseted from door to door leading to more people willing to use public transport, walk or cycle - not every day, but at least some days.
* Less weather-related traffic disruption.
* More people are on holidays.
* Some factories, especially chemical / pharmaceutical plants will have maintenance shut-downs
* Builders' holidays.
* Longer day light hours - this means that there is less emphasis on getting certain tasks done within a short working day.
* Longer evenings - people are more willing to engage in an after-work leisure activity, without going home first.

oppenheimer1

Confucius say wrote: »

Just discussing this at work. There are currently pretty much no traffic problems on any of our commuter routes in the mornings. I come in from north side Dublin to City centre by bicycle and some of us commute from as far as navan and Louth.

It's all down to schools being off.

Shouldn't we look at this closely and try and find a solution to parents blocking up the roads every morning? Is there any other way to get kids to school? I walked or took the bus.

If the traffic could stay how it is we would have far less stressful lives!

Alter_Ego

There are several thing that could be done:

1. Better public transport, including subway. There are cities smaller than Dublin with functional subways, e.g. Lisbon
2. School buses, mandatory
3. Congestion charges in city center, with possible exemption for car sharing
4. Legalize all 2 wheelers in bus lanes

Also, public transport needs to be cheaper, waaaaay more frequent, faster and use more circular routes. Why do I need to go through city center trying to get from Lucan to Blanch for example?

As long as I can get to work (15 km one way) 5-6 TIMES FASTER in my car than with Dublin Bus/Luas/Dublin Bus combination I will happily cover the tax, insurance fuel and maintenance costs on 2L petrol to SAVE MY PRECIOUS TIME.

Iwannahurl

Victor wrote: »

There are Multiple factors.

* Aside from schools and colleges being off, quite a few parents also take the summer off to mind those children.
* The weather is better - there is less desire to be cosseted from door to door leading to more people willing to use public transport, walk or cycle - not every day, but at least some days.
* Less weather-related traffic disruption.
* More people are on holidays.
* Some factories, especially chemical / pharmaceutical plants will have maintenance shut-downs
* Builders' holidays.
* Longer day light hours - this means that there is less emphasis on getting certain tasks done within a short working day.
* Longer evenings - people are more willing to engage in an after-work leisure activity, without going home first.

The primary factor is simply the reality that there isn't a large cohort of people driving their children to school.

I have great trouble accepting that "quite a few parents also take the summer off to mind those children". TTBOMK the only people who can "take the summer off" are teachers and parents working full-time in the home, ie the same ones who cause the traffic congestion during the school term.

Climate and day-length explain very little of the variation. For example, the roads in Galway are clogged with school traffic regardless of the weather, and you can almost guarantee that there will be traffic chaos again in August sunshine when the annual book/uniform buying frenzy takes place.

In Galway the secondary teachers one-day strikes resulted in free-flow conditions, effectively ruling out other factors (such as builders' holidays, weather, day length etc).

School-related traffic congestion can be sorted out by the provision of school buses, school travel plans and active traffic management by the relevant aithorities. Currently nobody in power has the slightest interest in looking at such matters, and they are quite content to let the chaos continue so that they don't have to get off their arses and plan things differently.

In Galway the preferred "solution" is a "bypass", the main purpose of which is to avoid the need for proper planning and provision of public transport.

Victor

While education is the biggest factor, the others do have knock-ons.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I have great trouble accepting that "quite a few parents also take the summer off to mind those children". TTBOMK the only people who can "take the summer off" are teachers and parents working full-time in the home, ie the same ones who cause the traffic congestion during the school term.

So many civil / public servants do it that they hire large numbers of temporary summer staff. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057391117

It's slightly different in the aviation industry - all the front line staff get their leave (sometimes months of paid leave) in the winter, while heavy maintenance staff probably get much of the summer off.

Fear Ciarrai

Many years ago Con Houlihan was asked about the traffic problem in Dublin. His response "the people complaining about it are the people causing it"

Iwannahurl

Victor wrote: »

While education is the biggest factor, the others do have knock-ons.So many civil / public servants do it that they hire large numbers of temporary summer staff. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057391117

It's slightly different in the aviation industry - all the front line staff get their leave (sometimes months of paid leave) in the winter, while heavy maintenance staff probably get much of the summer off.

So the large number of civil/public service workers taking the summer off (what formal arrangement allows them to do that, btw?) are replaced by temporary staff.

How do the temps get to work?

The number of public service workers in Galway must be comparatively small. The summer season traffic reduction is mostly due to schools, and is therefore an issue that can be addressed with proper organisation and the necessary will. Both are entirely lacking in public administration. The temporary workers would probably do a better job if given the mandate...

redmicky

Make it so children have to go to a school in the area they live in.
For example at the moment we have children from the north side of dublin going to school on the south side and vice versa.
The bus and Dart is packed with school children traveling miles from home to attend school, passing by numerous schools nearer to where they live which they could attend. Do something about that and it will help greatly.

Valetta

redmicky wrote: »

Make it so children have to go to a school in the area they live in.
For example at the moment we have children from the north side of dublin going to school on the south side and vice versa.
The bus and Dart is packed with school children traveling miles from home to attend school, passing by numerous schools nearer to where they live which they could attend. Do something about that and it will help greatly.

One could easily say;

"Make it so people have to work near the area they live in"

The roads are for everyone, in equal measure.

Streetwalker

Buy a motorbike/scooter. Problem solved. Why do people feel like they need a five seat car to drive to work. Unless you are car pooling YOU are part of the problem.

Idbatterim

Many years ago Con Houlihan was asked about the traffic problem in Dublin. His response "the people complaining about it are the people causing it"

laughable, yeah it certainly isnt the appalling transport system here... Which is spectacularly bad given the size of the city and the money available during the boom..

Victor

Idbatterim wrote: »

laughable, yeah it certainly isnt the appalling transport system here... Which is spectacularly bad given the size of the city and the money available during the boom..

Sure, but it is bad because of the people driving the cars - which extends to beyond physical act of driving.

jimmycrackcorm

Idbatterim wrote:

the solution is simple, sort out the appalling rail infrastructure here would be a good start. MN and DU, along with a few smaller schemes. Build the southern bypass and have a full ring road...

What? Build railway stations near each school?

The simple solution is to make school starts at ten a.m. Which would mean that whatever parents are doing during the summer, they'd have to do all year round.

SpaceTime

Alter_Ego wrote: »

There are several thing that could be done:

1. Better public transport, including subway. There are cities smaller than Dublin with functional subways, e.g. Lisbon

Lisbon is absolutely not smaller than Dublin.
The official city is calculated smaller because of the administrative boundary. It has a metro population of 2.8 million and is much more densely built due to apartment vs house dwelling.

There are smaller cities with Metros though : Bilbao for example.

The constant issue in Ireland with public transport is that once you get away from City centres there's scatter development and you end up needing park and ride to get people onto systems as stations would be too far away from most homes of you followed a Spanish pattern.

We've made a political and cultural choice to put spread out, low density housing as our lifestyle priority.

That's largely why we struggle with things like public transport but also broadband and other capital intensive infrastructure that needs density of population to make it cost effective.

Our broadband issues for example are only resolving because cheaper, decentralised technology is available now. Eircom is using street cabinets that only need to have 100 homes near by to make them commercially viable.

In the past they needed an exchange with thousands

We also tend to scatter or schools to the four winds and we still segregate a lot of them by gender, especially in urban areas. That means more parents making multiple trips if they've boys and girls.

Then you've religious issues that mean a % of parents can't access local schools due to not having baptismal certificates so, you've long drives to alternative schools

Nobody thinks about these things as drains on the economy or evironmentally damagining.

Big picture and far sighted planning isn't something Ireland does well.

I mean how the hell does a country this wet manage to run out of water in a relatively small metropolitan area like Dublin? Answer : inability to plan, parochialism and rapid development.

savagethegoat

the solution is no doubt more people working from home. After all it is daft for people to travel a few miles just to sit in an office in front of computer all day when they could have done that in a home office, and got their household expenses subsidised by their employer and saved the travel costs, and their employer could save expensive office costs.

Mrs OBumble

Valetta wrote: »

One could easily say;

"Make it so people have to work near the area they live in"

And the problem with that statement is?

If I was king, I wouldn't enforce that has a "have to". But I would give tax-breaks to employers based on minimising the distance between their employees homes at regular place of work. 'Twould soon enough see companies take more account of the environmental effect of their hiring policies.

Seaswimmer

Streetwalker wrote: »

Buy a motorbike/scooter. Problem solved. Why do people feel like they need a five seat car to drive to work. Unless you are car pooling YOU are part of the problem.

I think this coupled with the suggestion somewhere else in the thread that all 2 wheeled vehicles could use bus lanes would be a big help.

I know most bikes/scooters already use bus lanes illegally mostly without penalty but a concerted campaign to advertise scooter and bus lane use would I think take a lot of people out of cars..

loyatemu

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I know most bikes/scooters already use bus lanes illegally mostly without penalty but a concerted campaign to advertise scooter and bus lane use would I think take a lot of people out of cars..

Motorbikes have a horrendous safety record, I can't see the govt. starting a campaign to encourage more of them. They should formalise the use of bus lanes though.

As for the school thing - the new school opening near me will be starting at 08.15, which sounds like a good idea except that lots of people here commute to Sandyford, Cherrywood, Bray etc and will be on the road at that time. But if they opened the school at 9am it would conflict with the traffic going to all the other schools.

Opening at 10 as suggested further up the thread would cause working parents additional childcare problems.

Staggered opening by bringing in breakfast/homework clubs before and after classes might be an option but teacher's unions would probably object.

I'd agree that kids should attend local schools - a lot of the kids travelling longer distances are attending private schools. The whole school admissions system in Ireland is messed up and needs reform, I don't think "improving traffic" is high on the list of priorities there...

schemingbohemia

redmicky wrote: »

Make it so children have to go to a school in the area they live in.
For example at the moment we have children from the north side of dublin going to school on the south side and vice versa.
The bus and Dart is packed with school children traveling miles from home to attend school, passing by numerous schools nearer to where they live which they could attend. Do something about that and it will help greatly.

Those kids using the Bus and DART aren't causing congestion, they're doing the right thing. It's the parents driving unnecessary journeys of less than 2km to bring their darlings to the doors of schools they could easily walk or cycle to that are putting additional cars on the road that don't need to be there.

Mrs OBumble

loyatemu wrote: »

Opening at 10 as suggested further up the thread would cause working parents additional childcare problems.
...

I'd agree that kids should attend local schools - a lot of the kids travelling longer distances are attending private schools.

I agree with the first statement quoted.

But the 2nd is non-sensical: almost all schools in Ireland are "private" schools, apart from the very few operated by the RETBs (ex VEC). The fundamnetal problem is screwed up planning: local schools should have been planned when houses were, and local schools should be required to enrol local children.

loyatemu

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I agree with the first statement quoted.

But the 2nd is non-sensical: almost all schools in Ireland are "private" schools, apart from the very few operated by the RETBs (ex VEC). The fundamnetal problem is screwed up planning: local schools should have been planned when houses were, and local schools should be required to enrol local children.

by private I mean fee-paying. Certainly a lot of the local kids in Greystones attend fee paying schools elsewhere (Dalkey, Killiney, Booterstown etc) even though the local secondary is under-subscribed. The fee-paying schools tend to draw their pupils from a very large catchment area - not sure how big a contributory problem this is to congestion though as a lot of the kids would use public transport.

Victor

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Those kids using the Bus and DART aren't causing congestion, they're doing the right thing. It's the parents driving unnecessary journeys of less than 2km to bring their darlings to the doors of schools they could easily walk or cycle to that are putting additional cars on the road that don't need to be there.

I'm not sure that it is appropriate for the transport system to subsidise school pupils travelling from Balbriggan (or Maynooth or Kilcoole) to Blackrock - Schoolchild Smart Card Single is €0.73 single.

schemingbohemia

Victor wrote: »

I'm not sure that it is appropriate for the transport system to subsidise school pupils travelling from Balbriggan (or Maynooth or Kilcoole) to Blackrock - Schoolchild Smart Card Single is €0.73 single.

What are you on about? It's that price whether they go to Blackrock or Malahide. We're talking about congestion on the roads not on the trains or buses.

end of the road

Alter_Ego wrote: »

TLegalize all 2 wheelers in bus lanes

no . unless they are 2 wheelers with an engine.

Alter_Ego wrote: »

TAlso, public transport needs to be cheaper, waaaaay more frequent, faster and use more circular routes.

while busses have to share roads with other traffic, along with other things such as people parking where they shouldn't for example, the bus services won't get any faster. luas priority needs to be examined also. as a light rail system there is no excuse for it not to get priority (the congestion charge would be 1 way to help make that happen in the city itself as it may reduce traffic enough to make any whining over it almost irrelevant) . we'd all like public transport to be cheeper but the money has to come from somewhere and the government aren't willing to subsidize it any more for now (hopefully that will change) . same for frequency as much as i'd agree it needs to happen.

end of the road

redmicky wrote: »

Make it so children have to go to a school in the area they live in.
For example at the moment we have children from the north side of dublin going to school on the south side and vice versa.
The bus and Dart is packed with school children traveling miles from home to attend school, passing by numerous schools nearer to where they live which they could attend. Do something about that and it will help greatly.

absolutely agree. not only that but these people are taking places from others in the area of the school miles away they send their children to.

mockingjay

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Those kids using the Bus and DART aren't causing congestion, they're doing the right thing. It's the parents driving unnecessary journeys of less than 2km to bring their darlings to the doors of schools they could easily walk or cycle to that are putting additional cars on the road that don't need to be there.

Surely the nightmarish gridlock on the M50 over the past twelve months cannot be attributed to school drop-offs. I can't imagine many parents using the route from Finglas to Ballymount from 7.15 - 9.00 am every morning.

end of the road

loyatemu wrote: »

Staggered opening by bringing in breakfast/homework clubs before and after classes might be an option but teacher's unions would probably object.

if this was ever to happen, i would hope they would do so, as they would be right. a teachers job is to educate children, a schools job is to provide a place where a child can be educated by such teacher. it is not the job of a school or its teachers to be a child minding service. if you need child care, it is up to you to provide for it either by paying for it, or if possible getting parents or others who could do it.

loyatemu wrote: »

I'd agree that kids should attend local schools - a lot of the kids travelling longer distances are attending private schools. The whole school admissions system in Ireland is messed up and needs reform

couldn't agree more

Confucius say

mockingjay wrote: »

Surely the nightmarish gridlock on the M50 over the past twelve months cannot be attributed to school drop-offs. I can't imagine many parents using the route from Finglas to Ballymount from 7.15 - 9.00 am every morning.

Just asked my brother who uses it from finglas every day. He says it's totally different now, much better, so yes schools being off tricked down to the M50 too ffs !!

Vic_08

Confucius say wrote: »

Just asked my brother who uses it from finglas every day. He says it's totally different now, much better, so yes schools being off tricked down to the M50 too ffs !!

How often does simple logic need to be explained to people?

Summer = Holidays = Less people working = Less commuter traffic.

How much school traffic do you think uses the M50?

These threads are invariably started by single occupancy car users who somehow think if someone else is taken off the road that their journey will be easier and of course other groups are not as important as they are. To put it simply, the reason commuter routes are jammed is because of COMMUTERS IN CARS.

pclive

All it takes is for a relatively small drop in traffic numbers to free up the network.

Captain Chaos

Vic_08 wrote: »

How often does simple logic need to be explained to people?

Summer = Holidays = Less people working = Less commuter traffic.
.

It's not that, the schools make the most difference. You will notice the difference even at Christmas and Easter when the schools are off. Same when the colleges close a month earlier than schools during the summer there is a huge drop off.

Even on public transport the DARTs are not a crush loaded in the evenings from all the school kids going from the city centre to Howth, and Malahide with their bags all over the seats and floors.

Confucius say

Vic_08 wrote: »

How often does simple logic need to be explained to people?

Summer = Holidays = Less people working = Less commuter traffic.

How much school traffic do you think uses the M50?

These threads are invariably started by single occupancy car users who somehow think if someone else is taken off the road that their journey will be easier and of course other groups are not as important as they are. To put it simply, the reason commuter routes are jammed is because of COMMUTERS IN CARS.

In my opinion you're wrong. I'm in the public sector. There's currently one person away and never more than one or two out at once in my area. I definitely think the clogged m50 is to do with kids going to school. If there's a holy day for e.g. Suddenly there's no traffic, at any time of year. And who do you know that takes days off for holy days, whether they have kids or not?

loyatemu

I'd have thought that on the M50 at least (and other long-distance routes) people are dropping their kids off on the way to work. School-specific congestion tends to be more localised.

beauf

Schools being off has a massive effect. But there's also lots of adults off work in the summer months. Term time, holidays, and people looking after those kids not at school.

Victor

schemingbohemia wrote: »

It's that price whether they go to Blackrock or Malahide.

Exactly!

We're talking about congestion on the roads not on the trains or buses.

One can't be taken in isolation from the others. If people perceive public transport to be over-crowded, they will tend to use other means.

end of the road wrote: »

if this was ever to happen, i would hope they would do so, as they would be right. a teachers job is to educate children, a schools job is to provide a place where a child can be educated by such teacher. it is not the job of a school or its teachers to be a child minding service. if you need child care, it is up to you to provide for it either by paying for it, or if possible getting parents or others who could do it.

€8.8 billion to be spent by the government on education in 2015. Schools are open for about 1,000 hours per year. There are 8,760 hours in a year - schools go under / unused for 89% of the year. There is certainly scope to use those buildings more efficiently and, if necessary, pay someone to mind children.

end of the road

Victor wrote: »

€8.8 billion to be spent by the government on education in 2015. Schools are open for about 1,000 hours per year. There are 8,760 hours in a year - schools go under / unused for 89% of the year. There is certainly scope to use those buildings more efficiently and, if necessary, pay someone to mind children.

fine, but the parents pay all the costs of it. for the minders wages, and the costs of having the schools open out of hours.

mockingjay

Confucius say wrote: »

If there's a holy day for e.g. Suddenly there's no traffic, at any time of year. And who do you know that takes days off for holy days, whether they have kids or not?

Well VERY few schools take days off for holy days these days... Maybe around Easter and Christmas....

Peppa Pig

Is the traffic substantially better in the evenings, during the summer, or is it the same rush hour as when the schools are on.

I've always found driving past a school at 9 am is gridlock, while going into the city around time is very heavy relative to 10am onwards. Traffic then picks up substantially from 5pm, including the buses and trains. You can hardly blame the schools for that. Most schoolkids are home by 4pm