Eflow Dispute

jiltloop

I have a very stressful issue with Eflow regarding a suspended account. I realise that Eflow pops up here from time to time with people getting lambasted for forgetting or avoiding paying tolls and get told to suck it up and pay the fines, however I believe my situation is more unique and I feel very hard done by.

Basically I have had a direct debit account with Eflow for years, because of the way their direct debit schedule works I have often been caught out with not having the funds in my account and the account being suspended. I would usually find out by letter and then call them and reactivate it and get any journeys moved back to the account and paid by card there and then or on the next Direct Debit run. I have always asked them if there was anyway they could take the direct debit earlier in the month rather than towards the end because I get paid at the beginning of each month. They have already told me that they cannot facilitate this and that it will be removed anytime after the 12th of each month.

This happened again in May (due to it being a 5 week month!) and because I had moved address I did not receive the penalty letter until later and when I called they said I owed them over €700 and had to pay the charges before I could reactivate my account. I disputed this as I believe it is a regulation of SEPA direct debits that I be informed of a Direct Debit date so that I can ensure I have sufficient funds in my account. they insisted that I pay the penalties and I refused and advised them that I wanted to pay for the tolls only and paid them over €100 over the phone to do this and they advised that there was still the penalty balance and the account would remain closed.

I have since been diligently paying my tolls when I have used the M50 but discovered at the weekend that they were taking my toll payments off the penalties and starting new penalty charges for the journeys I had intended paying for (despite the fact that I selected paying for Journeys on the website) and now I owe their solicitors over €800 and there are over €500 more of penalties with Eflow that will soon be multiplied and also passed to their solicitors.

I am looking for advice here regarding the legality of what they are doing and in particular the legality of not informing me on a monthly basis of what amount is to be removed from my account and on what specific day. I think I was emailed statements but never the day the direct debit would be removed except that it would be between the 12th and the end of each month. Does this conflict with SEPA direct debit activator obligations?

Please do not come on here to tell I should have just paid this or that or informed them of my address change. I am looking for some advice that will help me with this situation not what would have helped me weeks ago.

Thanks in advance.

Carawaystick

I'd start by checking the sepa direct debit rules. If it's fairly clear the nra have not obeyed these rules, look at getting a charge back procedure with your bank, and ask the ipso to kick the nra out of the direct debit scheme as the sepa rules claim ( the ipso won't do this though)

Then I'd check how you are paying for existing trips? Is it with payzone? I'd check any advertising the nra / payzone have to see if they can take payments for tolls and use them for penalties.

I'd consider transferring ownership of your car to the "jiltloop" who lives at the new address, which should stop the clock on any new payments going to the nra lawyers.

Stheno

jiltloop wrote: »

I have a very stressful issue with Eflow regarding a suspended account. I realise that Eflow pops up here from time to time with people getting lambasted for forgetting or avoiding paying tolls and get told to suck it up and pay the fines, however I believe my situation is more unique and I feel very hard done by.

Basically I have had a direct debit account with Eflow for years, because of the way their direct debit schedule works I have often been caught out with not having the funds in my account and the account being suspended. I would usually find out by letter and then call them and reactivate it and get any journeys moved back to the account and paid by card there and then or on the next Direct Debit run. I have always asked them if there was anyway they could take the direct debit earlier in the month rather than towards the end because I get paid at the beginning of each month. They have already told me that they cannot facilitate this and that it will be removed anytime after the 12th of each month.

This happened again in May (due to it being a 5 week month!) and because I had moved address I did not receive the penalty letter until later and when I called they said I owed them over €700 and had to pay the charges before I could reactivate my account. I disputed this as I believe it is a regulation of SEPA direct debits that I be informed of a Direct Debit date so that I can ensure I have sufficient funds in my account. they insisted that I pay the penalties and I refused and advised them that I wanted to pay for the tolls only and paid them over €100 over the phone to do this and they advised that there was still the penalty balance and the account would remain closed.

I have since been diligently paying my tolls when I have used the M50 but discovered at the weekend that they were taking my toll payments off the penalties and starting new penalty charges for the journeys I had intended paying for (despite the fact that I selected paying for Journeys on the website) and now I owe their solicitors over €800 and there are over €500 more of penalties with Eflow that will soon be multiplied and also passed to their solicitors.

I am looking for advice here regarding the legality of what they are doing and in particular the legality of not informing me on a monthly basis of what amount is to be removed from my account and on what specific day. I think I was emailed statements but never the day the direct debit would be removed except that it would be between the 12th and the end of each month. Does this conflict with SEPA direct debit activator obligations?

Please do not come on here to tell I should have just paid this or that or informed them of my address change. I am looking for some advice that will help me with this situation not what would have helped me weeks ago.

Thanks in advance.

You can't get legal advice on here, my advice would be to contact eflow and ask to speak to a member of the escalations team who will work with you to try to resolve this.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Then I'd check how you are paying for existing trips? Is it with payzone? I'd check any advertising the nra / payzone have to see if they can take payments for tolls and use them for penalties.

It's listed as what they do at the top of the unpaid toll notice they send out.

Says: "Please note: payments recieved may be used to close any outstanding balances for any previous journeys which remain unpaid"

jiltloop

Stheno wrote: »

You can't get legal advice on here, my advice would be to contact eflow and ask to speak to a member of the escalations team who will work with you to try to resolve this.


It's listed as what they do at the top of the unpaid toll notice they send out.

Says: "Please note: payments recieved may be used to close any outstanding balances for any previous journeys which remain unpaid"

Well even if legal advice cannot be given can anyone advise me if my interpretation of Direct Debit regulations is correct?

I understand that they may have that disclaimer regarding payments but how enforceable is that? It's clearly crazy, I mean if they can get away with that they can pretty much impose infinite penalties on any individual who is disputing any previous journey and apply ludicrous escalation penalties with no limits. I do not think this is enforceable as I have receipts from Eflow which state that I have paid say €6.20 for journeys and €0.00 on penalties. Surely they can't send out a receipt such as this and then send a letter a few days later saying I did not pay for the journey?

In any case they will only put me through to their solicitors department and they are obviously looking to squeeze as much money out of me as possible, the escalations team will not deal with it anymore.

jiltloop

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'd start by checking the sepa direct debit rules. If it's fairly clear the nra have not obeyed these rules, look at getting a charge back procedure with your bank, and ask the ipso to kick the nra out of the direct debit scheme as the sepa rules claim ( the ipso won't do this though)

Then I'd check how you are paying for existing trips? Is it with payzone? I'd check any advertising the nra / payzone have to see if they can take payments for tolls and use them for penalties.

I'd consider transferring ownership of your car to the "jiltloop" who lives at the new address, which should stop the clock on any new payments going to the nra lawyers.

Thank you for the advice, I think I will need to stop using my car on the M50, crazy that it has to come to that but I think it's my only option to prevent any further penalties.

I have checked the Direct Debit payment rules and they do need to give notice of the direct debit payment regarding when it is to be paid and how much it will be but I can't see any specification regarding how exact the 'when' has to be. I would think it should be an exact date and that sometime between the 12th and the 31st of a month would be far too vague but it's hard to know. I know from my own job where I organise Direct Debit payments for customers that we send a letter before every direct debit deduction advising of the exact date and amount of the payment.

Stheno

jiltloop wrote: »

Well even if legal advice cannot be given can anyone advise me if my interpretation of Direct Debit regulations is correct?

I understand that they may have that disclaimer regarding payments but how enforceable is that? It's clearly crazy, I mean if they can get away with that they can pretty much impose infinite penalties on any individual who is disputing any previous journey and apply ludicrous escalation penalties with no limits. I do not think this is enforceable as I have receipts from Eflow which state that I have paid say €6.20 for journeys and €0.00 on penalties. Surely they can't send out a receipt such as this and then send a letter a few days later saying I did not pay for the journey?

In any case they will only put me through to their solicitors department and they are obviously looking to squeeze as much money out of me as possible, the escalations team will not deal with it anymore.

I ended up with a bill ten times higher than yours with eflow and successfully resolved it through the escalations team, just try it.

Sounds to me like you've been ignoring them tbh

I'm fairly certain my vodafone bill tells me they will take payment on or after x date also

They can send you a penalty notice saying they will apply what you pay to previous penalties and use that receipt to apply it.

wally1990

If you are asking For legal advice you need to contact their solicitors and they will give you the advice .nobody here can do that

As for the direct debit , sepa dd doesn't need to specify a date but rather an advance notice period before an attempt eg 7 days

All Eflow will do had this point is give you a settlement offer before a claims notice is issued against you id imagine

slimjimmc

Don't E-flow give you the option in how to receive a monthly statement, either by post (for an extra fee) or electronically (email and online) at no cost? If one selected the electronic option then would the availability of the statement being online satisfy the SDD notification rules even if the email wasn't received?

Stheno

slimjimmc wrote: »

Don't E-flow give you the option in how to receive a monthly statement, either by post (for an extra fee) or electronically (email and online) at no cost? If one selected the electronic option then would the availability of the statement being online satisfy the SDD notification rules even if the email wasn't received?

I'd imagine so, I get a monthly email that my statement is available and payment comes out around the 12th

I get the email a good 10 days ahead of it coming out, so I can't imagine they are in breach

Same as vodafone, they emailed and texted today about my bill which is due out towards the end of the month sometime

Both are pretty consistent presenting bills

whomitconcerns

I would certainly challange the huge bills and try find a solution but take a bit of ownership here...its not all on them. Anyway they are usually pretty helpful if you call them

hadook

You can pay your eFlow bill manually on the website on the last day of the month before the billing run hits if you want to avoid the direct debit for the following month.

Did the DD request come through before the 12th OP? I had that happen in early 2014 with eFlow and successfully disputed it but if they presented after the 12th when the bill states 'on or after the 12th' and you didn't have funds available I don't see how that's their fault. The reason I was able to challenge was that a) the DD presented before the date on the bill and b) sufficient notification wasn't given either.

jiltloop

My issue is that saying a direct debit will come out some time after the 12th but before the end of the month is not sufficient notice. EPC documents states the below;

The Pre-notification must be sent by the Creditor at the latest 14 Calendar Days before the Due Date unless another time-line is agreed between the Debtor and the Creditor.

Prior to the sending of the Collection to the Creditor Bank, the Creditor notifies the Debtor of the amount and due date. This notification may be sent together with or as part of other commercial documents (e.g. an invoice) or separately.

Those 2 mentions of it in the document state that pre-notification must be given notifying the amount and due date. Eflow clearly never give a due date. Surely this does not comply?

I have no problem taking responsibility but I have a huge issue with the way Eflow are dealing with this situation. They have clearly put a system into place that is designed to trap people into an impossible situation whereby they are bullied or coerced into paying a huge amount of money for something that was originally €2.10. This is a disgraceful system of extortion that no other company could get away with.

At the end of the day my account lapsed by one month and they have suddenly amounted roughly €1500 (and rising) of penalties. the original balance which lapsed was €60! How can anyone defend this kind of system? If any other company or institution imposed these kinds of penalties they would not get away it.

28064212

It's possible they are in breach of SEPA regulations. You are required to give notification, unless the debtor has agreed otherwise (which you may well have in a T&Cs somehwere).

However, and this is important, breaching SEPA regulations has nothing to do with the validity of the debt. If they have breached the regulations, you're entitled to perform a debit reversal. But you still owe them the money. Nothing in the regulations changes that

wally1990

You should be looking at ipso and not epc

Their FAQ's States & it's seems your issue is with the NRA fixed penalties rather than the sepa (it's a lot of money) and not having your correspondence address up to date

Frequently Asked Questions –SEPA Direct Debits (SDD)

The Irish Payment Services Organisation's (IPSO)

Will the SDD always be debited on the same date?

In many cases, if agreed with the Creditor, the SDD can be applied on a regular date otherwise it will be debited as per the advance notice.

What if I need to change my bank account details?
If you wish to change the bank details you should inform the Creditor within a reasonable timeframe and contact your bank to cancel the existing instruction.

If you are switching your account your bank must organize the switching a

jiltloop

28064212 wrote: »

It's possible they are in breach of SEPA regulations. You are required to give notification, unless the debtor has agreed otherwise (which you may well have in a T&Cs somehwere).

However, and this is important, breaching SEPA regulations has nothing to do with the validity of the debt. If they have breached the regulations, you're entitled to perform a debit reversal. But you still owe them the money. Nothing in the regulations changes that

That's thing though, I have never questioned the validity of the debt, in fact I made a point of paying it, it's the penalties imposed after I had insufficient funds that I am disputing. As soon as I realized it had not gone through I phoned to pay the amount. they refused to waive the penalties and I insisted on them telling me what the toll amount outstanding was without penalties and I paid that there and then over the phone.

jiltloop

wally1990 wrote: »

You should be looking at ipso and not epc

Their FAQ's States & it's seems your issue is with the NRA fixed penalties rather than the sepa (it's a lot of money) and not having your correspondence address up to date

Frequently Asked Questions –SEPA Direct Debits (SDD)

The Irish Payment Services Organisation's (IPSO)

Will the SDD always be debited on the same date?

In many cases, if agreed with the Creditor, the SDD can be applied on a regular date otherwise it will be debited as per the advance notice.

What if I need to change my bank account details?
If you wish to change the bank details you should inform the Creditor within a reasonable timeframe and contact your bank to cancel the existing instruction.

If you are switching your account your bank must organize the switching a

I have tried to find more info with IPSO regarding details around advance notice and a Creditors obligations regarding pre-notification of a specific date but I can't seem to find them. That's why I checked it out in the EPO document and got the above excerpts. Is it possible to query it with the IPSO?

MrWalsh

Stheno wrote: »

It's listed as what they do at the top of the unpaid toll notice they send out.

Says: "Please note: payments recieved may be used to close any outstanding balances for any previous journeys which remain unpaid"

Interesting - I read that as it may be used against previous journey charges, not penalties.

28064212

jiltloop wrote: »

That's thing though, I have never questioned the validity of the debt

The debt includes the penalties.

jiltloop wrote: »

As soon as I realized it had not gone through I phoned to pay the amount. they refused to waive the penalties

Why would they? Do you realise their bank charges them penalties when a direct debit is returned unpaid?

It doesn't sound like you have a leg to stand on tbh.

jiltloop

28064212 wrote: »

The debt includes the penalties.


Why would they? Do you realise their bank charges them penalties when a direct debit is returned unpaid?

It doesn't sound like you have a leg to stand on tbh.

Their bank would charge penalties of what? €12.40 or so? Hardly a justification to charge me over a thousand euro is it? The fact of the matter is that my direct debit failed, it was direct debit that I did not receive a correct pre-notification for. That is where my dispute lies, any ridiculous charges or debts they have applied after the fact are a product of their failure to comply with Direct Debit regulations. That's the basis of my argument.

28064212

jiltloop wrote: »

Their bank would charge penalties of what? €12.40 or so? Hardly a justification to charge me over a thousand euro is it?

You had one direct debit returned and they instantly fined you a thousand euro? Is that what you're claiming?

whomitconcerns

28064212 wrote: »

You had one direct debit returned and they instantly fined you a thousand euro? Is that what you're claiming?

actually he says he has had DDs returned multiple times for them over the years as he hasnt got money in the ac when they arrive. Very fortunate this seems to be teh only time they are actually chasing him...they must have absorbed the charges all the other times!

I think its time the OP cancelled account and paid cash in future.

Cushie Butterfield

jiltloop wrote: »

Their bank would charge penalties of what? €12.40 or so? Hardly a justification to charge me over a thousand euro is it? The fact of the matter is that my direct debit failed, it was direct debit that I did not receive a correct pre-notification for. That is where my dispute lies, any ridiculous charges or debts they have applied after the fact are a product of their failure to comply with Direct Debit regulations. That's the basis of my argument.

I think you'd be better off engaging with them/their solicitor with the view to resolving the matter instead of working yourself up in a fruitless attempt to find loopholes. Read the T&Cs of your agreement with eFlow & you'll find they followed procedure. You were informed that the money would be debited on or after the 12th - it was up to you to ensure that you had the funds in your bank account to meet what you owed.

The only legitimate reason for you to complain is if they submitted the direct debit before the 12th. Most originators automatically call for payment by representing the direct debit 3 to 5 days after a failed attempt, so it looks as if you'll have to take your head out of the sand.

This is not a legal or banking problem - it's a budgeting/money managing problem. It's certainly not eFlow's problem & it's unlikely to be resolved by looking for technical loopholes, so do yourself a favour & engage with them with the view to reducing the present debt. The very least you should do is make sure you pay the original amount(s) owed & then start haggling about the extra fees & charges.

Going forward just open a separate bank account purely for direct debits. Lodge what you think you may owe whenever you get paid & when you get to view your invoice lodge the rest. Creditors aren't interested in how you can or can't manage your money - that's your responsibility.

Apologies if the above comes across as harsh, but sometimes the truth hurts.

jiltloop

28064212 wrote: »

You had one direct debit returned and they instantly fined you a thousand euro? Is that what you're claiming?

Why don't you have another little read over my first post instead of trying to be smart. I'm looking for advice not condescension, you have no personal investment in this matter so if you're all out of advice then I can do without any more of your posts thanks.

Stheno

jiltloop wrote: »

That's thing though, I have never questioned the validity of the debt, in fact I made a point of paying it, it's the penalties imposed after I had insufficient funds that I am disputing. As soon as I realized it had not gone through I phoned to pay the amount. they refused to waive the penalties and I insisted on them telling me what the toll amount outstanding was without penalties and I paid that there and then over the phone.

The problem is you didn't realise it wasn't paid before penalties accrued. I recently had my account suspended as I changed debit card, rang within two weeks to resolve it, and had two journeys that occured within that time added to the account penalty free, so I'm wondering how long it took you to contact them?

jiltloop wrote: »

Their bank would charge penalties of what? €12.40 or so? Hardly a justification to charge me over a thousand euro is it? The fact of the matter is that my direct debit failed, it was direct debit that I did not receive a correct pre-notification for. That is where my dispute lies, any ridiculous charges or debts they have applied after the fact are a product of their failure to comply with Direct Debit regulations. That's the basis of my argument.

Not sure you've much to stand on here. You were told the direct debit would be in the period between the 12th and the end of the month. You didn't honor it, and eflow do represent in my experience, so it failed a couple of times. The account gets suspended, you keep using the tolls and build up a fair whack of penalties, which btw are set by the NRA and not eflow

If it was a case of the direct debit failed and within a couple of days you were hit with penalties I'd think differently, but certainly based on my experience as above where it took me a couple of weeks to ring with new card details, and not incurring penalties, I'd wonder how long you let this situation go on.

Have you contacted the escalations team yet?

Shadow22

how did this work out for you? i had 3 journeys i forgot to pay because of extreme circumstances , i had other more important issues to deal with and ignored the letters. now they want 600euro off me (journeys were back in august) i dont have the means to pay such a bill. they offered me a settlement figure of 150 off 300euro back a month ago but couldnt pay explained why and i was told to call back before a certain date. financial difficulties are really stopping me from paying.
i spoke to them today and are starting legal proceedings to claim a fee of 600euro. i explained that at this time i couldnt pay and they didnt care (eflows solicitors)
im genuinely worried and scared and feel at this point been bullied by this company all for driving on a road.
any advice you can give or anyone would be much appreciated.

Stheno

Shadow22 wrote: »

how did this work out for you? i had 3 journeys i forgot to pay because of extreme circumstances , i had other more important issues to deal with and ignored the letters. now they want 600euro off me (journeys were back in august) i dont have the means to pay such a bill. they offered me a settlement figure of 150 off 300euro back a month ago but couldnt pay explained why and i was told to call back before a certain date. financial difficulties are really stopping me from paying.
i spoke to them today and are starting legal proceedings to claim a fee of 600euro. i explained that at this time i couldnt pay and they didnt care (eflows solicitors)
im genuinely worried and scared and feel at this point been bullied by this company all for driving on a road.
any advice you can give or anyone would be much appreciated.

Have you rung and asked to speak to the escalations team?

Shadow22

Stheno wrote: »

Have you rung and asked to speak to the escalations team?

i spoke to somebody with peirse fitzgibbon solicitors and were not helpful at all. i explained i only work part time and that that amount is well beyond my reach. especially at this time of year and they replied with we have been instructed to commence proceedings in court and i should seek legal advice. really stressed out now

Paul_Mc1988

Shadow22 wrote:

how did this work out for you? i had 3 journeys i forgot to pay because of extreme circumstances , i had other more important issues to deal with and ignored the letters. now they want 600euro off me (journeys were back in august) i dont have the means to pay such a bill. they offered me a settlement figure of 150 off 300euro back a month ago but couldnt pay explained why and i was told to call back before a certain date. financial difficulties are really stopping me from paying. i spoke to them today and are starting legal proceedings to claim a fee of 600euro. i explained that at this time i couldnt pay and they didnt care (eflows solicitors) im genuinely worried and scared and feel at this point been bullied by this company all for driving on a road. any advice you can give or anyone would be much appreciated.

Shadow22 wrote:

how did this work out for you? i had 3 journeys i forgot to pay because of extreme circumstances , i had other more important issues to deal with and ignored the letters. now they want 600euro off me (journeys were back in august) i dont have the means to pay such a bill. they offered me a settlement figure of 150 off 300euro back a month ago but couldnt pay explained why and i was told to call back before a certain date. financial difficulties are really stopping me from paying. i spoke to them today and are starting legal proceedings to claim a fee of 600euro. i explained that at this time i couldnt pay and they didnt care (eflows solicitors) im genuinely worried and scared and feel at this point been bullied by this company all for driving on a road. any advice you can give or anyone would be much appreciated.

I just don't get how this can happen. I understand forgetting the first time but then you get the notice in the door telling you that you forgot said payment and you just pay the journey and the small fine.

Paying this also takes less than 5 minutes so I don't know how it's such a big issue for some people.

Shadow22

Paul_Mc1988 wrote: »

I just don't get how this can happen. I understand forgetting the first time but then you get the notice in the door telling you that you forgot said payment and you just pay the journey and the small fine.

Paying this also takes less than 5 minutes so I don't know how it's such a big issue for some people.

i was away when the letters came and family emergencies took it away from my mind so thats how it escalated

Losty Dublin

Shadow22 wrote: »

i was away when the letters came and family emergencies took it away from my mind so thats how it escalated

When did you make the journey's in question?

Shadow22

Losty Dublin wrote: »

When did you make the journey's in question?

back in august around the middle. (dont have letters to hand )