Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

robdonn

Two Sheds wrote: »

The hypocrisy of Planned Parenthood is coming to the surface -

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/cnsnewscom-staff/abortion-enthusiasts-were-undercover-video-they-were-against-it

Hypocrite -
/ˈhɪpəkrɪt/

A person or organisation that illegally kills babies and sells their organs for profit.

Said no dictionary ever....

Overheal

Fair and valid point. Thank you.

MrPudding

Overheal wrote: »

Fair and valid point. Thank you.

Is it fair and valid though...? I have not seen any of the pro-choice videos. Are they badly edited? Do the pro-choice groups scream that they show something they don't? Just because both campaigns use undercover cottage does not mean equivalence. From the little that was mentioned in the linked article, the pro-choice undercover footage seems to be related to actual factual things that happened during the interviews, rather than straw grasping, makey uppey inference.

MrP

robdonn

MrPudding wrote: »

Is it fair and valid though...? I have not seen any of the pro-choice videos. Are they badly edited? Do the pro-choice groups scream that they show something they don't? Just because both campaigns use undercover cottage does not mean equivalence. From the little that was mentioned in the linked article, the pro-choice undercover footage seems to be related to actual factual things that happened during the interviews, rather than straw grasping, makey uppey inference.

MrP

There aren't an awful lot of things in this world that I hate, but I have to admit that I hate, nay, detest undercover cottage. Yuck!

Peregrinus

robdonn wrote: »

There aren't an awful lot of things in this world that I hate, but I have to admit that I hate, nay, detest undercover cottage. Yuck!

Why should we hide in the shadows? Why should we be ashamed? Let us celebrate cottage joyfully and openly! Cottage pride!

MrPudding

robdonn wrote: »

There aren't an awful lot of things in this world that I hate, but I have to admit that I hate, nay, detest undercover cottage. Yuck!

A tricky one. There are ethical issues, for sure, but sometimes the results are useful. Look at me falling back on ends justify the means...

In some cases there may simply be no other way to gather the evidence required to force a change, we have seen this used to good affect in the cafe home abuses in the UK, for example.

MrP

Two Sheds

The Center for Medical Progress has released another video today -

There are no graphic images in the video, but Dyer's comments about shipping the severed intact "calvarium" or skull of an aborted baby are bonechilling.

https://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/new-planned-parenthood-video-baby-parts-buyer-jokes-about-shipping-severed-heads_1018420.html

robdonn

Two Sheds wrote: »

The Center for Medical Progress has released another video today -

https://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/new-planned-parenthood-video-baby-parts-buyer-jokes-about-shipping-severed-heads_1018420.html

OK, instead of jumping in straight away, first let's hear what you think this video is showing.

(Or are you still ignoring me? )

hinault

Irish Mainstream Media news blackout in reporting about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

robdonn

hinault wrote: »

Irish Mainstream Media news blackout in reporting about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

Actually it doesn't, lack of "Irish Mainstream Media" reporting on this issue could very well be because it's an imaginary issue. Nobody has been able to provide any actual evidence for the claims that are being made about PP and no journalist should be reporting rumours as fact.

hinault

robdonn wrote: »

Actually it doesn't, lack of "Irish Mainstream Media" reporting on this issue could very well be because it's an imaginary issue. Nobody has been able to provide any actual evidence for the claims that are being made about PP and no journalist should be reporting rumours as fact.

The verbal admissions made by the PP personnel in each video are evidence.

The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

Overheal

Two Sheds wrote: »

The Center for Medical Progress has released another video today -

https://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/new-planned-parenthood-video-baby-parts-buyer-jokes-about-shipping-severed-heads_1018420.html

Early on references info copied on this page: http://stemexpress.com/partnerships/

Easy to Implement Program + Financial Profits

StemExpress promotes global biomedical research while also providing a financial benefit to your clinic. By partnering with StemExpress, not only are you offering a way for your clients to participate in the unique opportunity to facilitate life-saving research, but you will also be contributing to the fiscal growth of your own clinic. The stem cell rich blood and raw materials that are usually discarded during procedures can, instead, be expedited through StemExpress to research laboratories with complete professionalism and source anonymity.

Right there in the clear on the Stemexpress website. If it were illegal, this wouldn't be up for question.

Whether or not Stemexpress enters into other partnerships with other clinics is a different matter: what seems clear is $50 to $70 reimbursements has been ratified by the medical research community as cost of transportation: there is no way to make anything close to resembling profit from that. Refrigeration, transportation, wages, premises etc. eat all that up. this point has been made ad nauseum but still keeps coming up from this media group.

Other than that, I dislike how the group doesn't identify who is undercover in this video as I am not sure who is doing the manipulation in conversational prompting. Presumably the buyer. It isn't clear from the video who is setting the tone of these conversations: its like when I was in sales, I'd interact with Customer A differently than Customer B, based on the tone that was established. If the fake buyer is going in and being cold, callous, calculated, referring to cases and body parts and volume and financials, that will be what transpires. I'd either give you the cardboard cutout sales interaction that corporate wanted and that you expected, or we can mouth off about how much we both hate this or that product.

What this video is probably more, honestly dark on, is the research industry. Despite the manipulative prompts this woman gives you an inkling into how the industry works to a degree. A research firm would, preferably, do business with a larger entity because the logistics are just far simpler of getting tissue from A to B with the most utility. But stemexpress admits they work with "triple digits" numbers of clinics for research in volumes where they would reasonably accommodate a turnover bandwidth of "50 livers per week." and actually, she refers to a research lab that stemexpress delivers to commenting on their apparent inability/dispreference for research tissue with identifying human features (hands, feet, etc).

Really, though, that enterprise is in all likelihood legal. All these videos highlight I feel is a legal operation, and these are just being uploaded now to canvas the presidential election political cycle. They are grabbing news air time by making false claims that its illegal: and its kind of genius. Because its not that its false, its that so many Americans automatically assume that it IS breaking the law. After these investigations come back negative on legal breaches, there will be a populist call out in the media to revisit the abortion issue, everyone will complain about it for weeks, Hillary will go up in the polls, etc. but because the country has always been so divided on the issue, little or nothing will change about it, regardless of how you feel about it.

The most vulnerable organization is Stemexpress, which is a logistics/delivery middleman between clinics and laboratories. They're the most likely thing to be making profit out of any of this.

robdonn

hinault wrote: »

The verbal admissions made by the PP personnel in each video are evidence.

Oh, have they released more videos that nobody has posted here? Because none of the videos presented so far have done anything of the sort! Your ignorance of how research facilities procure samples does not excuse you, it has been explained over and over and over again that the financial conversations by Planned Parenthood personnel are about recuperation of costs, they are not about personal profit. Even if the values that they procured exceeded the cost of the handling nobody is making any extra money from it, as a non-profit that money goes straight back into the organisation.

Designation as a nonprofit does not mean that the organization does not intend to make a profit, but rather that the organization has no 'owners' and that the funds realized in the operation of the organization will not be used to benefit any owners.

Wiki

hinault wrote: »

The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

So again, show that there is an actual story to report.

hinault

robdonn wrote: »

none of the videos presented so far have done anything of the sort.

That's why Planned Parenthood butchers are being investigated throughout several states in America, because there is no evidence :rolleyes:


The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

hinault

State of South Carolina has announced that it has launched an investigation of Planned Parenthood.

http://www.aim.org/on-target-blog/planned-parenthood-now-being-investigated-by-south-carolina/

robdonn

hinault wrote: »

That's why Planned Parenthood butchers are being investigated throughout several states in America, because there is no evidence :rolleyes:

If there was evidence readily available to make these claims then why do they have to investigate at all? A claim has been made and is being investigated, just as you would be investigated if somebody claimed that you assaulted them. It doesn't matter if you did it or not, that's for the investigation to find out.

hinault wrote: »

The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

hinault

robdonn wrote: »

If there was evidence readily available to make these claims then why do they have to investigate at all?

Due legal process.

The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

robdonn

hinault wrote: »

Due legal process.

There we go! Innocent until proven guilty, right? So instead of making claims about what you think they did, how about withholding judgement until the results of the investigations are released?

hinault

robdonn wrote: »

There we go! Innocent until proven guilty, right?

Who hear mentioned innocence or guilt, apart from you that is?

All that I made mention of was evidence, before you got all defensive.

robdonn wrote: »

So instead of making claims about what you think they did,

What claim did I make, apart from the claim about evidence?
Quote/link the claim that you think I made.

hinault

hinault wrote: »

The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

What exactly is in the videos that is newsworthy?

robdonn

hinault wrote: »

Who hear mentioned innocence or guilt, apart from you that is?

All that I made mention of was evidence, before you got all defensive.

I'm talking about using the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" as a more rational approach to the topic than the "they kill innocent babies so I can definitely imagine that they would do this" approach. (Not an actual quote, of course.)

hinault wrote: »

What claim did I make, apart from the claim about evidence?
Quote/link the claim that you think I made.

You're right, the first half of that sentence should be omitted as you have not made any specific claim as to their guilt. But you have made this claim over and over...

hinault wrote: »

Irish Mainstream Media news blackout in reporting about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

hinault wrote: »

The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

hinault wrote: »

The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

hinault wrote: »

The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

... so presumably you think that the content of the videos show some evidence of illegal activities? If so, please point it out, and if not, why would anyone report on them?

hinault

robdonn wrote: »

I'm talking about using the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" as a more rational approach to the topic than the "they kill innocent babies so I can definitely imagine that they would do this" approach. (Not an actual quote, of course.)

Hold on.

All I mentioned throughout the exchange between you and me was the word evidence.

That's why you failed to post an actual quote. Your accusation against me is without any foundation in this instance.

robdonn wrote: »

You're right,

I know I'm right!


The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

robdonn

hinault wrote: »

that

It's funny, you keep using the word evidence but you have yet to actually provide any.

hinault

robdonn wrote: »

you keep using the word evidence but you have yet to actually provide any.

Tell that to the authorities conducting investigations in several American states.

pauldla

robdonn wrote: »

There we go! Innocent until proven guilty, right? So instead of making claims about what you think they did, how about withholding judgement until the results of the investigations are released?

I recall some saying that we should do the same in the Tuam babies case, and the case of Savita Halappanavar. Perhaps we could have an elaboration on the difference in this case of PP?

Timberrrrrrrr

hinault wrote: »

Due legal process.

The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

It's not being reported simply because it's a non story, you spamming the thread with the same lines does not make you right.

MrPudding

hinault wrote: »

Tell that to the authorities conducting investigations in several American states.

As I am on hinault's ignore list, in excellent company I might add, I don't expect him to read this, but I don't really care either.

As part of 'due legal process' a phrase you yourself used, but I fear don't understand, there would need to be an investigation before any legal action could be considered.

As it currently stands, a number of states have launched investigations, but the majority of states have not, as of yet at least. Does that not tell you something? If there is evidence of wrong doing in the videos (which there isn't, just to be clear) then surely every state would have begun the process of taking legal action, which would start with an investigation.

But it isn't even that simple. Some of the states are likely to have launched investigations with no actual hope or intention of taking legal action. They have no hope of intention of taking legal action because that would require, you know, evidence of criminal, or otherwise illegal, activity and there is, you know, no evidence of that presented in any of the videos. So this leave us to conclude that some of these investigations are simply part of the smear campaign and are designed to appeal to the weak minded, those that simply believe what they are told when it fits with there already formed worldview, or at least the worldview they have been told to have, or those that simply want to believe this is true, both, or at least one of which can be seen in this thread.

You also seem to conveniently ignore the fact that several states have completed their investigations and found no wrong doing.

And in keeping with you immature style of dealing with posters that don't agree with you I will end with: so there.

MrP

Timberrrrrrrr

MrPudding wrote: »

As I am on hinault's ignore list, in excellent company I might add, I don't expect him to read this, but I don't really care either.

As part of 'due legal process' a phrase you yourself used, but I fear don't understand, there would need to be an investigation before any legal action could be considered.

As it currently stands, a number of state have launched investigations, but the majority of states have not, as of yet at least. Does that not tell you something? If there is evidence of wrong doing in the videos (which there isn't, just to be clear) then surely every stat would have begun the process of taking legal action, which would start with an investigation.

But it isn't even that simple. Some of the states are likely to have launched investigations with no actual hope or intention of taking legal action. They have no hope of intention of taking legal action because that would require, you know, evidence of criminal, or otherwise illegal, activity and there is, you know, no evidence of that presented in any of the videos. So this leave us to conclude that some of these investigations are simply part of the smear campaign and are designed to appeal to the weak minded, those that simply believe what they are told when it fits with there already formed worldview, or at least the worldview they have been told to have, or those that simply want to believe this is true, both, or at least one of which can be seen in this thread.

You also seem to conveniently ignore the fact that several states have completed there investigations and found no wrong doing.

And in keeping with you immature style of dealing with posters that don't agree with you I will end with: so there.

MrP

Reposting so he gets the chance to read it

I also notice that the states conducting these "investigations" all seem to be bible belt places, Election looming in the states so the Republicans need to get as many of the religious on their side as possible to win.

Delirium

hinault wrote: »

The decision of the Irish Mainstream media to not report about the content of these videos confirms the bias that exists therein.

MOD NOTE


Please stop with the soapboxing.

Thanks for your attention.

robdonn

MrPudding wrote: »

And in keeping with you immature style of dealing with posters that don't agree with you I will end with: so there.

MrP

I tried multiple times to draft a reply to one of the posts in question but it's actually hard to reply in kind and not feel dirty... and abide by forum charters, of course. :P