Sanctity of Life (Abortion Megathread)

Nick Park

Cabaal wrote: »

I think both people against and for choice can agree with this surely?

Information provided should always be accurate and unbiased when it comes to vulnerable people

I certainly agree with you that any 'information' should be accurate, if it isn't accurate then it is 'lies' rather than 'information'.

The word 'unbiased' is so broad as to be meaningless. Everyone operates from a bias that certain types of behaviour are undesirable. For example, if a pregnant girl is threatening to commit suicide, then I would hope that all of us would have a bias in that we would want her to live.

lazygal

Nick Park wrote: »

For example, if a pregnant girl is threatening to commit suicide, then I would hope that all of us would have a bias in that we would want her to live.

What does this even mean?

volchitsa

Nick Park wrote: »

I certainly agree with you that any 'information' should be accurate, if it isn't accurate then it is 'lies' rather than 'information'.

The word 'unbiased' is so broad as to be meaningless. Everyone operates from a bias that certain types of behaviour are undesirable. For example, if a pregnant girl is threatening to commit suicide, then I would hope that all of us would have a bias in that we would want her to live.

And telling women that abortion makes them more likely to get breast cancer and to have emotional difficulties with future children is what, then, in your opinion? Lying, surely?

lazygal

volchitsa wrote: »

And telling women that abortion makes them more likely to get breast cancer and to have emotional difficulties with future children is what, then, in your opinion? Lying, surely?

We'll apparently Nick knows someone who got an abortion at six months' pregnant to fit into a bridesmaid dress so he has his own biases too if he's spouting stories like that about women.

volchitsa

lazygal wrote: »

We'll apparently Nick knows someone who got an abortion at six months' pregnant to fit into a bridesmaid dress so he has his own biases too if he's spouting stories like that about women.

He didn't really say that, did he? :eek:

lazygal

Nick Park wrote: »

Put your feigned outrage away. You know fine rightly I was using two extremes from the opposite ends of the scale. (I have encountered both scenarios in real life in the UK, but they are both incredibly rare).

This is Nick, when he confirmed that his comment about a woman having an abortion at six months to fit into a bridesmaid dress is a scenario he has encountered in real life in the UK.

lazygal

Nick Park wrote: »

Since each case is different, I'm not in the business of making blanket assertions about who should be criminalised. There's also a legitimate discussion to be had about when life begins. Most Christians I know would see a clear difference between a 14-year-old rape victim who takes a morning after pill, and a woman who is 6-months pregnant and wants to get rid of her baby so she can fit into a bridesmaid's dress for her friend's wedding.

As I've already said, I'm much more concerned with contributing to a just and fair society that respects human rights than I am with criminalising people.

Has the way the Equality of Life Amendment has been implemented always been just and fair? Probably not. Does that mean that the unborn child should be stripped of Constitutional protection? Certainly not.

Here's Nick talking about different reasons for abortion.

EDIT-Both posts from this thread. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057462323&page=208

volchitsa

Nick Park wrote: »

Since each case is different, I'm not in the business of making blanket assertions about who should be criminalised. There's also a legitimate discussion to be had about when life begins. Most Christians I know would see a clear difference between a 14-year-old rape victim who takes a morning after pill, and a woman who is 6-months pregnant and wants to get rid of her baby so she can fit into a bridesmaid's dress for her friend's wedding.

As I've already said, I'm much more concerned with contributing to a just and fair society that respects human rights than I am with criminalising people.

Has the way the Equality of Life Amendment has been implemented always been just and fair? Probably not. Does that mean that the unborn child should be stripped of Constitutional protection? Certainly not.

I hadn't seen this. Six months pregnant and she suddenly discovered her dresses needing letting out?? Or was her friend having a shot gun wedding or something, that hadn't been planned months in advance, like every single couple I know these days?

Nobody could expect anyone to believe this level of nonsense, could they?

lazygal

volchitsa wrote: »

I hadn't seen this. Six months pregnant and she suddenly discovered her dresses needing letting out?? Or was her friend having a shot gun wedding or something, that hadn't been planned months in advance, like every single couple I know these days?

Nobody could expect anyone to believe this level of nonsense, could they?

People expect others to swallow all sorts of nonsense, like religious people's grounds for being anti choice being completely secular.

Nick Park

lazygal wrote: »

What does this even mean?

It's plain English.

Nobody offers advice from an unbiased perspective. Everyone thinks some outcomes and actions are undesirable. I then gave a rather obvious example where most of us would share a bias of wanting to avoid a situation where someone commits suicide.

I'm simply pointing out that no-one really offers 'unbiased' advice.

Nick Park

volchitsa wrote: »

And telling women that abortion makes them more likely to get breast cancer and to have emotional difficulties with future children is what, then, in your opinion? Lying, surely?

I'm no medical expert, but I'd be very surprised indeed if there was any link between abortion and breast cancer. So, yes, telling that to anyone would be lying in my opinion.

The same would apply if it is proven that abortion never causes emotional difficulties with future children. I certainly wouldn't pretend to know if that is the case or not.

volchitsa

Nick Park wrote: »

I'm no medical expert, but I'd be very surprised indeed if there was any link between abortion and breast cancer. So, yes, telling that to anyone would be lying in my opinion.

And do you accept that they did do that?

Nick Park wrote: »

The same would apply if it is proven that abortion never causes emotional difficulties with future children. I certainly wouldn't pretend to know if that is the case or not.

Neither do I, but I do know that lots of other things can sometimes cause emotional problems in bonding with new babies, financial worries, a difficult birth, marital problems - and a very big one is not having wanted the child in the first place.

Should pro life associations such as this one be obliged to tell women who come to them that if they do go ahead and have the baby without really wanting to, they may have trouble bonding with it?

Nick Park

volchitsa wrote: »

And do you accept that they did do that?

I've seen news reports to that effect, and I see no reason to disbelieve them.

Neither do I, but I do know that lots of other things can sometimes cause emotional problems in bonding with new babies, financial worries, a difficult birth, marital problems - and a very big one is not having wanted the child in the first place.

Should pro life associations such as this one be obliged to tell women who come to them that if they do go ahead and have the baby without really wanting to, they may have trouble bonding with it?

I don't see how you can oblige pro-life or pro-abortion associations to say stuff. They certainly shouldn't be allowed to tell lies. But in the end they will each present things from their own perspectives.

lazygal

Nick Park wrote: »

I've seen news reports to that effect, and I see no reason to disbelieve them.



I don't see how you can oblige pro-life or pro-abortion associations to say stuff. They certainly shouldn't be allowed to tell lies. But in the end they will each present things from their own perspectives.

Which pro abortion associations operate in Ireland? Do they lie to women about non existent medical links to abortion?

Cabaal

Nick Park wrote: »

I'm simply pointing out that no-one really offers 'unbiased' advice.

Shock horror,
But people are capable of just giving people the facts and leaving the person to make their own decision.
You don't seem to think this is possible, but it most certainly is. Its sad you have such little faith in your fellow humans.

What the catholic linked organisation did in Dublin was outright lie to the women in an attempt to make her not consider an abortion has an option, this is not the way to give advice.

You instead should give her the facts and leave her decide, that is choice.

Nick Park

Cabaal wrote: »

Shock horror,
But people are capable of just giving people the facts and leaving the person to make their own decision.

They might be capable of it, but they rarely do. It is human nature to put our own spin on things. (Even if we prefer to pretend that we are perfectly impartial, and that those who disagree with us are not).

Its sad you have such little faith in your fellow humans.

Much of my life has been spent working with people who have suffered through the actions of others. Human beings are certainly capable of showing great altruism and compassion, but selfishness, greed and nastiness often predominate.

What the catholic linked organisation did in Dublin was outright lie to the women in an attempt to make her not consider an abortion has an option, this is not the way to give advice.

And I agreed with you that lying is totally wrong.

You instead should give her the facts and leave her decide, that is choice.

And my point, which is eminently reasonable, is that our biases will almost always be a factor as to which facts you present and how you present them.

lazygal

This clinic didn't present any facts, only lies. Do you know which pro abortion clinics act in the same manner?

Nick Park

lazygal wrote: »

This clinic didn't present any facts, only lies. Do you know which pro abortion clinics act in the same manner?

I never said any did.

My intervention in this thread was to respond to Cabaal's comment that advice should be accurate and unbiased. I simply responded with the reasonable view that they should indeed be accurate but, given human nature, it is probably impossible to eliminate bias.

Do you have anything useful to contribute to that discussion about bias? Or do you just want to pick a fight?

lazygal

Nick Park wrote: »

I never said any did.

My intervention in this thread was to respond to Cabaal's comment that advice should be accurate and unbiased. I simply responded with the reasonable view that they should indeed be accurate but, given human nature, it is probably impossible to eliminate bias.

Do you have anything useful to contribute to that discussion about bias? Or do you just want to pick a fight?

No,you referred to pro abortion associations. I'm asking if you know which clinics are pro abortion and whether they lie to women. Like, perhaps, women who decide on abortions in order to fit into dresses.

eviltwin

Any properly run organisation will have safeguards in place to ensure staff act professionally. It's not that difficult to do. This is a bunch of quacks masquerading as a legitimate service. I wonder if the 'counsellor' is even qualified or accredited, I doubt it.

Cabaal

Nick Park wrote: »

Do you have anything useful to contribute to that discussion about bias? Or do you just want to pick a fight?

You're showing your own bias here in this thread,
You simply believe people are incapable of providing facts without bias, but people are well capable of doing just that and many people do so on a daily basis.

You simply have your own bias belief that they are not capable of doing that, its a sad reflection on your view of humans as you don't appear to have much faith in people's abilities to just relay facts.

Nick Park

Cabaal wrote: »

You're showing your own bias here in this thread,

I think we are all showing our biases. I'm simply being honest enough to acknowledge it, and am endeavouring to do so without being hostile or disagreeable.

I don't see many unbiased posts in this entire thread.

eviltwin

We can be unbiased here though, this is us talking not the professional who is supposed to act in the best interests of the client.

solodeogloria

Nick Park wrote: »

I think we are all showing our biases. I'm simply being honest enough to acknowledge it, and am endeavouring to do so without being hostile or disagreeable.

I don't see many unbiased posts in this entire thread.

Good morning!

I really can't see how I could disagree with this.

I readily acknowledge that I have a bias as a Christian believer on this forum. I have an intention in posting.

Others do also. However many people like to insist that their viewpoint is impartial but is anything but.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

smacl

solodeogloria wrote: »

I readily acknowledge that I have a bias as a Christian believer on this forum. I have an intention in posting.

Others do also. However many people like to insist that their viewpoint is impartial but is anything but.

That is perfectly reasonable, in that you have stated your bias from the outset. What is unreasonable is where you have a counselling service that is also operating from a bias while claiming to be impartial. The fact that people claiming to be counsellors are providing misinformation to pregnant women to support their own agenda is also clear wrong, unethical and dangerous.

smacl

Nick Park wrote: »

I think we are all showing our biases. I'm simply being honest enough to acknowledge it, and am endeavouring to do so without being hostile or disagreeable.

I don't see many unbiased posts in this entire thread.

Suggesting that lazygal has nothing useful to contribute does actually come across as both hostile and disagreeable though. Similarly referring to pro-choice as pro-abortion, should those of us with a pro-choice bias refer to pro-life exclusively as anti-choice? In terms of bias, some of us with a pro-choice bias have also made efforts to include references to unbiased references to support our stance. So for example, my biased position is that we should repeal the 8th amendment, the unbiased HSE study previously linked shows that 89% of the population would be in favour of allowing the choice of abortion in situations where there was serious risk to the health (not life) of the pregnant woman. This implies that according to the unbiased study the overwhelming majority of people in this country would also be in favour of repealing the 8th. Perhaps from your position of bias you could provide some similarly unbiased up to date references that indicate otherwise?

Cabaal

At the end of the day all I want is a unbiased service that provides the facts to women so they can then decide.

If a women decides to keep the fetus and go to term thats fine. If she decides to have an abortion then thats fine too.
Nobody that is pro-choice wants to force a women into have an abortion so saying somebody is "pro-abortion" is idiotic, we just want women to have a choice, allow them to control their own body's and make their own life choices after given facts.

Unbiased services can and do exist, despite the bias views of people that claim they can't exist. Its not such a shocking idea that people can and do act in a professional capacity.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

Perhaps biased services can be actually helpful to people.

A good example of this is Christian counselling. People have the option of seeking Christian counseling services which frame advice in a Christian context for those who are seeking it. This in a sense is a biased service that is abundantly helpful to those who use it. If I needed one I would use one.

Similarly it is conceivable that there are people who have unplanned pregnancies who may want to consider the options and support they have for bringing the child to birth and after birth in a pro-life context. Similarly there are advice centres which are pro-choice.

Sometimes biased services are bespoke enough to deal with peoples needs.

Lying of course is wrong and needs to be challenged and regulated.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Cabaal

If a bias service wants to be bias thats fine,
But a Catholics linked bias service that claims to be unbiased is outright wrong and misleading. Women need to be told the truth, not mislead and lied to by god fearing Catholics.

If the service wants to advertise itself as bias and that it will try its best to put women off abortions then by all means they can offer the service to do just that,

solodeogloria

Good morning!

Cabaal - I think you can see that I've been very clear that misinformation is wrong. Nick has also been very clear.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria