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New Party: The Social Democrats.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,820 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    You have to see developments like this in the context of a likely scenario after the next election where FG and Labour will be 12-15 seats short of an OM but there is no obvious alternative government. So they will be looking to put together some sort of alliance that will bring them up to 80 seats, and if you're a TD with real policy ideas, you're more likely to have influence on the government if you band together with 2 or 3 like-minded souls than if you're negotiating as a sole trader...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I am watching them with interest.
    As someone who could be best described as a 'soft socialist' - I believe in small government which runs the services to maintain a society where every citizen is treated equally which protects all citizens which, humans being humans, requires the State to produce legislation to ensure they are protected - I find myself without a political party to vote for...

    I admire much of the work done by the likes of Daly and Wallace when it comes to highlighting abuses in the system (e.g. penalty points) but, like the Socialist Party/AAA TDs, I find them a bit strident and preachy.

    Sinn Fein - I have spent a long time having internal (talking to myself again) and external discussions as to why I have an aversion to Sinn Fein and whether this is based on genuine concerns or the result of a decades long campaign against them by the establishment. Two 'straws' have seriously dented the camel's back when it comes to SF - 1. the ink fiasco - they should have offered to pay for the ink not fall back in the same old what TDs are entitled to justifications so beloved of the other political parties. 2. The whole sexual abuse scandal - S.F. closed ranks and put party image first. I have had enough of the welfare of political parties being put first.

    Independents - in the last G.E. the only independent I was seriously considering voting for was Diarmuid O Flynn... until it emerged he would vote against any attempt to legalise abortion. Although Diarmuid and I had a cordial exchange of emails, I felt that given his public anti-abortion statements I could not vote for him and he respected that.

    FF/FG/LP can simply feck right off.
    Renua - rewhoah?

    As I can't vote for the SNP perhaps the Social Democrats is the place for me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Thomas_.


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I am watching them with interest.
    As someone who could be best described as a 'soft socialist' - I believe in small government which runs the services to maintain a society where every citizen is treated equally which protects all citizens which, humans being humans, requires the State to produce legislation to ensure they are protected - I find myself without a political party to vote for...

    I admire much of the work done by the likes of Daly and Wallace when it comes to highlighting abuses in the system (e.g. penalty points) but, like the Socialist Party/AAA TDs, I find them a bit strident and preachy.

    Sinn Fein - I have spent a long time having internal (talking to myself again) and external discussions as to why I have an aversion to Sinn Fein and whether this is based on genuine concerns or the result of a decades long campaign against them by the establishment. Two 'straws' have seriously dented the camel's back when it comes to SF - 1. the ink fiasco - they should have offered to pay for the ink not fall back in the same old what TDs are entitled to justifications so beloved of the other political parties. 2. The whole sexual abuse scandal - S.F. closed ranks and put party image first. I have had enough of the welfare of political parties being put first.

    Independents - in the last G.E. the only independent I was seriously considering voting for was Diarmuid O Flynn... until it emerged he would vote against any attempt to legalise abortion. Although Diarmuid and I had a cordial exchange of emails, I felt that given his public anti-abortion statements I could not vote for him and he respected that.

    FF/FG/LP can simply feck right off.
    Renua - rewhoah?

    As I can't vote for the SNP perhaps the Social Democrats is the place for me.

    Thanks for that interesting post from you and your frank comments about what you think of SF.

    Having read some parts on this Social Democrats website, I´m not so sure whether they really like to be left of the centre or more centre based. The outset of this party appears to me to be of less ideological basis but more pragmatic, putting the citizen in the focus to gain support and votes.

    I´m not much familiar with the three TDs who founded that Party and so I can´t say anything about them. What strikes me is that just one of the three is a former Labour TD. It also seems to me that they like to build up an alternative to the parties of the establishment, maybe also drawing some voters and votes from those who either voted or are inclined to vote for SF.

    I´ll be looking for the first and further reactions from the Labour Party on that new party because of the name they chose to give themselves and the Agenda they seek to give themselves. As this is a brand new party with just three members, there are plenty of chances to bring on some of ones own ideas to them and get involved with them. But if someone chooses to join them, it´ll be hard work to build it up and I rather doubt a Swift success, given the time left before the next GE in the Republic of Ireland which is, if I´m not wrong, next year. So those three TDs, if they don´t have the backings of their constituency, might lose their seats in the Dáil and it might be a long way until they get in again, depending on how this new party is developing.

    I think that your last line re FF/FG/LAB sums it up and mirrors what many people expressed on internet forums in the past couple of years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Thomas_.


    You have to see developments like this in the context of a likely scenario after the next election where FG and Labour will be 12-15 seats short of an OM but there is no obvious alternative government. So they will be looking to put together some sort of alliance that will bring them up to 80 seats, and if you're a TD with real policy ideas, you're more likely to have influence on the government if you band together with 2 or 3 like-minded souls than if you're negotiating as a sole trader...

    Yes, I wouldn´t reckon with this new Party gaining plenty of seats in the Dáil, but if those three would manage to get re-elected, that would be something, depending on the backing of their voters in their constituencies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,828 ✭✭✭5rtytry56


    Can't see their website yet. Where is it? Who are they again?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    Thomas_. wrote: »
    Thanks for that interesting post from you and your frank comments about what you think of SF.

    Having read some parts on this Social Democrats website, I´m not so sure whether they really like to be left of the centre or more centre based. The outset of this party appears to me to be of less ideological basis but more pragmatic, putting the citizen in the focus to gain support and votes.

    I´m not much familiar with the three TDs who founded that Party and so I can´t say anything about them. What strikes me is that just one of the three is a former Labour TD. It also seems to me that they like to build up an alternative to the parties of the establishment, maybe also drawing some voters and votes from those who either voted or are inclined to vote for SF.

    I´ll be looking for the first and further reactions from the Labour Party on that new party because of the name they chose to give themselves and the Agenda they seek to give themselves. As this is a brand new party with just three members, there are plenty of chances to bring on some of ones own ideas to them and get involved with them. But if someone chooses to join them, it´ll be hard work to build it up and I rather doubt a Swift success, given the time left before the next GE in the Republic of Ireland which is, if I´m not wrong, next year. So those three TDs, if they don´t have the backings of their constituency, might lose their seats in the Dáil and it might be a long way until they get in again, depending on how this new party is developing.

    I think that your last line re FF/FG/LAB sums it up and mirrors what many people expressed on internet forums in the past couple of years.

    Well the 3 Amigos have been extremely active as independents, and quite impressive, too. imo.. I would put them way ahead of Renua in terms of re-electability.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,645 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    Catherine Murphy got my number 1 in every GE she's run in, and County Council before that. My only concern was that, as an independent, she never had any serious political clout in the Dail. That now changes.

    I was always impressed by Stephen Donnelly, so I'm delighted Murphy is teaming up with him. Not so enamoured with Shortall. I imagine they will get a few other current TD's to join before the GE, hopefully someone like Michael McNamara will jump ship from Labour.

    Murphy would have my number 1 anyway, but at least now I'll feel my vote will have a lot more potential to enact actual change!




  • I don't like Shortall due to her minimum alcohol pricing stance, but respect the other two. Donnelly should retain my vote


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Thomas_.


    5rtytry56 wrote: »
    Can't see their website yet. Where is it? Who are they again?

    I´ve given the link to their Website as the third one in my opening post, but to save you the bother, I´ll give it to you again:

    http://www.socialdemocrats.ie/


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    I'm delighted to see it. Last time out, I canvassed for one of them (Donnelly), and since he just about got over the line on maybe the 30th count (by less than 150 votes), he's been a source of hope in the Dail. Hundreds of people have been asking him to start a party, so I'm glad they've taken the leap.

    I think their Ideas page lays out exactly what they stand for. Left and Right are tired terms that are no longer useful. It's clear to see how they would do things differently if they are in government. And I hope they have some ideas about how not to get chewed up and spat out like the PDs, Greens & Labour.

    That said, they probably don't want to be a small party, they probably want to be a large party. I genuinely trust them to be honest with us about what they can and can't do, and to make decisions in a way that represents their supporters.

    With the party funding rules heavily biased in favour of the existing parties, the key to their success will have to be something like crowdfunding, thousands of small donations to build a fund. I'm sure the current lot will be doing everything possible in terms of mudslinging to shut down that funding.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,390 ✭✭✭touts


    I like Donnelly and much of what he has talked about since he was elected but jesus he's getting his ass kicked by Pat Kenny at the moment because he is clearly not comfortable talking from the socialist waffle sheet Shorthall and Murphy handed him for interviews.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Thomas_.


    edanto wrote: »
    I'm delighted to see it. Last time out, I canvassed for one of them (Donnelly), and since he just about got over the line on maybe the 30th count (by less than 150 votes), he's been a source of hope in the Dail. Hundreds of people have been asking him to start a party, so I'm glad they've taken the leap.

    I think their Ideas page lays out exactly what they stand for. Left and Right are tired terms that are no longer useful. It's clear to see how they would do things differently if they are in government. And I hope they have some ideas about how not to get chewed up and spat out like the PDs, Greens & Labour.

    That said, they probably don't want to be a small party, they probably want to be a large party. I genuinely trust them to be honest with us about what they can and can't do, and to make decisions in a way that represents their supporters.

    With the party funding rules heavily biased in favour of the existing parties, the key to their success will have to be something like crowdfunding, thousands of small donations to build a fund. I'm sure the current lot will be doing everything possible in terms of mudslinging to shut down that funding.

    This is certainly what they will have to endure in the near future.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    Stephen Donnelly is pretty much the most competent and articulate member of the Dail.

    I'll certainly be keeping an eye on this party with an open mind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭zoobizoo


    Donnelly is an economics graduate and has a Masters in Economics from Harvard (I think). Compare that to some of the others running in Wicklow... I put him number 1 based on his CV. I certainly wouldn't be voting SF locally as I like my politicians to have some level of education.

    Shortall - I admire her because she was the only TD who wanted to tackle the alcohol issue head on without kotowing to the drinks industry. She looked at the research and based her plans on that research, particularly when it came to the marketing of booze and its effect on the habits of young people. Reilly and Varadkar have ignored the international and national research on this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    I'm not sure I agree with their stance that Irish Water should be managed by the government. I'm agnostic on the idea of water charges if they can provide costings on how to pay for it without increasing taxes. In general, I'm interested in their tax policy I suppose.


  • Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    How ominous, the inability of the party to make such a basic decision as to a leader.

    If they can't even select a leader with conviction, I can't see them operating with any gumption in a coalition government.

    Utterly indistinguishable from Labour in substance. The two parties will fuse together after most of the Labour Party is wiped out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    zoobizoo wrote: »
    Donnelly is an economics graduate and has a Masters in Economics from Harvard (I think). Compare that to some of the others running in Wicklow... I put him number 1 based on his CV. I certainly wouldn't be voting SF locally as I like my politicians to have some level of education.

    Shortall - I admire her because she was the only TD who wanted to tackle the alcohol issue head on without kotowing to the drinks industry. She looked at the research and based her plans on that research, particularly when it came to the marketing of booze and its effect on the habits of young people. Reilly and Varadkar have ignored the international and national research on this.

    He is a mechanical engineering graduate from UCD. He has a masters' degree in Public Administration in International Development from Harvard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    I predict a 5 party coalition after the next election supported by indos!

    FG/LAB/Renua/Greens/SD will be the 5 parties.


  • Registered Users Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Cr4pSnip3r


    How ominous, the inability of the party to make such a basic decision as to a leader.

    If they can't even select a leader with conviction, I can't see them operating with any gumption in a coalition government.

    Utterly indistinguishable from Labour in substance. The two parties will fuse together after most of the Labour Party is wiped out.

    I was waiting for a comment like this! Usually new threads about politics are chalk full of this kind of worthless ****e, so it's good to see it take a little longer this time.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    At least the news of this new party didn't immediately make me sigh heavily with disappointment.

    And that is positive.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Thomas_.


    How ominous, the inability of the party to make such a basic decision as to a leader.

    If they can't even select a leader with conviction, I can't see them operating with any gumption in a coalition government.

    Utterly indistinguishable from Labour in substance. The two parties will fuse together after most of the Labour Party is wiped out.

    It´s better to have people like these three than to have the likes of Syriza.


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 1800


    So the Labour Party Lite have joined the circus. More Indos who just deserted a sinking ship, who are clearly no different from the rest. That parasite O Riordan will probably jump aboard when he gets the chance. Abolish the water charges and repel the 8th, yawn.

    Just a bunch of posh Clare Dalys. Think we've more than enough socially liberal parties in this state.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Thomas_.


    1800 wrote: »
    So the Labour Party Lite have joined the circus. More Indos who just deserted a sinking ship, who are clearly no different from the rest. That parasite O Riordan will probably jump aboard when he gets the chance. Abolish the water charges and repel the 8th, yawn.

    Just a bunch of posh Clare Dalys. Think we've more than enough socially liberal parties in this state.

    Why not give them a chance?


  • Registered Users Posts: 42 1800


    Thomas_. wrote: »
    Why not give them a chance?

    Why should I when agree with very little of what the stand for. Donnelly and Muprhy have been decent Independents so far but Shortalls minimum alcohol pricing policy which is now coming into law is idiotic. She jumped ship when she couldnt get her way but she is no different to anyone else in the Labour Party now, a lying opportunist.

    Also what sort of political party has 3 members 8 months before an election? It doesnt matter what most people think because they wont b in our constituencies. Hear Shortall now on about equality, progress and the Nordic model. More total bollocks no different to any of the left wing parties we have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭dRNk SAnTA


    With Catherine Murphy and Stephen Donnelly on board, this party have gone straight to #1 for me.

    Roisin Shorthall isn't my cup of tea, but I don't doubt that she's in politics for the right reasons.

    I'm hoping Social Democrats stay true to the broad principals of open government, evidence led decision making, and fairness in society.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    So it is an official party then!

    With a former Workers Party & Labour party membership it will try to gain reelection amongst the already very crowded left wing of voters.

    Donnelly must fear reelection more than I thought to abandon independence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,263 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Cr4pSnip3r wrote: »
    I was waiting for a comment like this! Usually new threads about politics are chalk full of this kind of worthless ****e, so it's good to see it take a little longer this time.

    Mod:

    The post raises valid points, you mightn't agree with them but wondering why they don't have a leader is reasonable, even if they are against personality politics or whatever. Either give a decent response or don't bother at all.

    1800 wrote: »
    So the Labour Party Lite have joined the circus. More Indos who just deserted a sinking ship, who are clearly no different from the rest. That parasite O Riordan will probably jump aboard when he gets the chance. Abolish the water charges and repel the 8th, yawn.

    Just a bunch of posh Clare Dalys. Think we've more than enough socially liberal parties in this state.
    1800 wrote: »
    Why should I when agree with very little of what the stand for. Donnelly and Muprhy have been decent Independents so far but Shortalls minimum alcohol pricing policy which is now coming into law is idiotic. She jumped ship when she couldnt get her way but she is no different to anyone else in the Labour Party now, a lying opportunist.

    Also what sort of political party has 3 members 8 months before an election? It doesnt matter what most people think because they wont b in our constituencies. Hear Shortall now on about equality, progress and the Nordic model. More total bollocks no different to any of the left wing parties we have.

    So much for having less personality politics!

    Can we all try and up the standard a bit please.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Thomas_. wrote: »
    It´s better to have people like these three than to have the likes of Syriza.
    "Vote for us, at least we're not Syriza"?

    Yes the Social Democrats are preferable over Syriza, who are themselves preferable over the Golden Dawn, who would be preferable to the Colonels' Junta, who were preferable over Pincochet, who would have been preferable over Ivan the Terrible, who was preferable over Pol Pot and Hitler!

    You can always make the case that a political party is better than another political party in another country, but it's a completely redundant observation since it has no electoral relevance. There are about ten political parties represented in the Dail already, none of which are Syriza.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,263 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    PS:

    Personal posts attacking others will get deleted promptly (and replies to the deleted posts), so not much point wasting your time making them. Repeat offenders will get bans. Thanks.

    The cafe is available for those more interested in that type of thing!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 42 1800


    Even if you agree with all they stand for, surely its obvious a party with 3 members 8 months from an election can have no relevance? Where or what is the change here?


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