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Eircode Anomolies
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It is very easy when you live in a country to get brainwashed by the way they do things. I divide my time between several countries, which allows me a certain overview of the good and bad and what is taken as generally standard practice.
I'm not a fan of UK postcodes. If you'd bothered to read my posts on this and other related threads you'd know that. Can you perhaps stick to the topic at hand rather than attempting to launch personal attacks?0 -
Nothing I have written should be construed as a personal attack.marmurr1916 wrote: »I'm not a fan of UK postcodes. If you'd bothered to read my posts on this and other related threads you'd know that. Can you perhaps stick to the topic at hand rather than attempting to launch personal attacks?0 -
I think we have a tendency to paper over organisational problems with technology. The basic problem with Eircode, that was never resolved is that the country didn't need a postcode. It needed a location code. But, it was felt that to succeed, the project had to have the (at least pretend) support of An Post. So, we got the peculiar melange that is Eircode, and all this fancy talk of apps and the like is part of that papering over. And the support from An Post isn't worth a hill of beans. It's probably the result some in An Post hoped for most.Unfortunately minimalism, a focus on simplicity and logic are not features of the Irish culture. Ireland likes to make things complicated, which usually means more expensive, and dysfunctional for the end-user.
To an extent the same thing happened with Leapcard. We were supposed to get integrated ticketing and most people thought that meant simple zone based, multi-modal tickets. But, it turned out to be a layer of technology on top of the existing ticketing system. Not that I'd put Leap in the same category as Eircode by any stretch.0 -
I think we have a tendency to paper over organisational problems with technology. The basic problem with Eircode, that was never resolved is that the country didn't need a postcode. It needed a location code. But, it was felt that to succeed, the project had to have the (at least pretend) support of An Post. So, we got the peculiar melange that is Eircode, and all this fancy talk of apps and the like is part of that papering over. And the support from An Post isn't worth a hill of beans. It's probably the result some in An Post hoped for most.
To an extent the same thing happened with Leapcard. We were supposed to get integrated ticketing and most people thought that meant simple zone based, multi-modal tickets. But, it turned out to be a layer of technology on top of the existing ticketing system. Not that I'd put Leap in the same category as Eircode by any stretch.
I'm not for papering over. We should fix Ireland's chaotic addressing system. But that doesn't detract from the fact that we can use eircode to get around the problems and that having it used by app's or other technology is no drawback in the year 2015 (nearly 2016)0 -
The basic problem with Eircode, that was never resolved is that the country didn't need a postcode. It needed a location code.
Ireland already has multiple location codes. National grid reference, lat/long, UTM etc etc.
It needs a postcode to define a blob of space like D2 or D4 all over the country (preferably all numeric to maximise machine efficiency and minimise territorial snobbishness - you can if necessary divide D4 into 1040 for Ballsbridge and 1042 for another part of Dublin 4) Something that is short, memorable, easy to comprehend, and usable. Freely downloadable. As a separate exercise Ireland needs to assign standard, minimalistic addresses to each building.To an extent the same thing happened with Leapcard. We were supposed to get integrated ticketing and most people thought that meant simple zone based, multi-modal tickets. But, it turned out to be a layer of technology on top of the existing ticketing system. Not that I'd put Leap in the same category as Eircode by any stretch.
Agreed. Switzerland uses tickets printed on board (stiff paper) for virtually everything except for AGs (annual tickets which are plastic credit card ISO size). There is no RFID scanning in CH public transport. You just get on a train, bus, tram, boat and if requested to, you show your ticket to the inspector. A random event. If you don't have a valid ticket pay CHF 100,00. One ticket works on all modes of transport within the defined geographic zones (like postal districts) you have paid for. Be it for a single trip, a day, a week, a month etc. If you buy an annual ticket (either for work/commuting/shopping or for national coverage of all forms of transport, you get a photo ID card). They divide the ticket revenue between transport service providers by sampling usage.
Switzerland also operates a country with nearly twice the Irish population with a 4 digit postcode with 24 or 48h delivery for standard post to most parts of Europe. Meanwhile Irish politicians allow about 10 mil to be spent on ticket checking gates at Heuston station and similar (which is inconvenient to people with wheely luggage or baby buggies and irrelevant as your ticket will be checked over and over while on board the train, while one has to put up with stupid announcements about the next station in English and Irish and do not forget your bags etc, grating, dumb, inhospitable, annoying spam), - when all it takes is random inspection. Which was a fight to get them to deploy on Luas. Swissrail just say Next stop Bern, in the language(s) of that town. At an airport station they would include it in English too for linguistically illiterate Americans and Brits. Nearly 80% of journeys in Zurich are by public transport. Close to 80% of trips in Dublin I suspect are in a private car.
Ireland is a complicated, dumb, wet (in more ways than one) an inefficient country, best avoided for 10 or so months of the year.0 -
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Mod: This thread has descended into a contest as to who can out-troll the others. Unless it improves, I will close it.
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Ireland already has multiple location codes. National grid reference, lat/long, UTM etc etc.
It needs a postcode to define a blob of space like D2 or D4 all over the country (preferably all numeric to maximise machine efficiency and minimise territorial snobbishness - you can if necessary divide D4 into 1040 for Ballsbridge and 1042 for another part of Dublin 4) Something that is short, memorable, easy to comprehend, and usable. Freely downloadable. As a separate exercise Ireland needs to assign standard, minimalistic addresses to each building.
Agreed. Switzerland uses tickets printed on board (stiff paper) for virtually everything except for AGs (annual tickets which are plastic credit card ISO size). There is no RFID scanning in CH public transport. You just get on a train, bus, tram, boat and if requested to, you show your ticket to the inspector. A random event. If you don't have a valid ticket pay CHF 100,00. One ticket works on all modes of transport within the defined geographic zones (like postal districts) you have paid for. Be it for a single trip, a day, a week, a month etc. If you buy an annual ticket (either for work/commuting/shopping or for national coverage of all forms of transport, you get a photo ID card). They divide the ticket revenue between transport service providers by sampling usage.
Switzerland also operates a country with nearly twice the Irish population with a 4 digit postcode with 24 or 48h delivery for standard post to most parts of Europe. Meanwhile Irish politicians allow about 10 mil to be spent on ticket checking gates at Heuston station and similar (which is inconvenient to people with wheely luggage or baby buggies and irrelevant as your ticket will be checked over and over while on board the train, while one has to put up with stupid announcements about the next station in English and Irish and do not forget your bags etc, grating, dumb, inhospitable, annoying spam), - when all it takes is random inspection. Which was a fight to get them to deploy on Luas. Swissrail just say Next stop Bern, in the language(s) of that town. At an airport station they would include it in English too for linguistically illiterate Americans and Brits. Nearly 80% of journeys in Zurich are by public transport. Close to 80% of trips in Dublin I suspect are in a private car.
Ireland is a complicated, dumb, wet (in more ways than one) an inefficient country, best avoided for 10 or so months of the year.
Nobody is compelling you to live in Ireland for any length of time. You're free to live 12 months of the year in the Swiss paradise of boredom.0 -
I'm not for papering over. We should fix Ireland's chaotic addressing system. But that doesn't detract from the fact that we can use eircode to get around the problems and that having it used by app's or other technology is no drawback in the year 2015 (nearly 2016)
I don't see anything chaotic about Ireland's address system.
This is the system for rural addresses:
Townland
Post Town
County
Eircode
This is the system for urban addresses:
Street Number/Building Name, Street
Town
County (optional)
Eircode
No other information is required.
So that's three elements plus a postcode for rural addresses, which is common throughout much of the world and three elements plus a postcode for urban addresses, with the option of adding a county name if preferred, although this is not essential if the Eircode is included.
I really don't see how that is a mess except if one is essentially a Swiss nationalist chauvinist who insists on Swiss standards being applied across the world.0 -
As Eircode is in effect , a hash into the GeoDirectory , I think it's entirely fit for the purpose it's was designed for0
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marmurr1916 wrote: »I don't see anything chaotic about Ireland's address system.
This is the system for rural addresses:
Townland
Post Town
County
Eircode
This is the system for urban addresses:
Street Number/Building Name, Street
Town
County (optional)
Eircode
No other information is required.
So that's three elements plus a postcode for rural addresses, which is common throughout much of the world and three elements plus a postcode for urban addresses, with the option of adding a county name if preferred, although this is not essential if the Eircode is included.
I really don't see how that is a mess except if one is essentially a Swiss nationalist chauvinist who insists on Swiss standards being applied across the world.
I'm talking pre eircode 30% non unique, as I said now that we have eircode we have a real solution to the addressing problem. But I still believe we should name all roads and create a proper addressing authority0 -
I'm talking pre eircode 30% non unique, as I said now that we have eircode we have a real solution to the addressing problem. But I still believe we should name all roads and create a proper addressing authority
But merely creating road names doesn't solve the non unique issue.
Eircode creates a unique reference , used appropriately it solves that issue completely0 -
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I'm talking pre eircode 30% non unique, as I said now that we have eircode we have a real solution to the addressing problem. But I still believe we should name all roads and create a proper addressing authority
This is off topic.
However, until people in non-unique areas put their Eircode on their gatepost like the urban dweller does with his house number, Eircode is not a solution to the address problem.
How do I know I have arrived at Z56 U4K7 if I have no indication? There may be several rural buildings around me so which one is it?
Before someone suggests it, having a computer in my pocket is not a solution - for example if I am a foreign tourist looking for a B&B and speak no English (or Irish).
It would be easier to name every road and number every house than get most rural dwellers to disclose their Eircode. Not even urban dwellers display their house number.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »
Before someone suggests it, having a computer in my pocket is not a solution - for example if I am a foreign tourist looking for a B&B
Yes, it is.
Road names and house numbers would be nice, but the future is actually technology, google maps use has exploded in the last 5 years and it's so good now it's fantasticly accurate. Once eircode goes on google maps it's going to be a game changer for navigation in Ireland.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »This is off topic.
However, until people in non-unique areas put their Eircode on their gatepost like the urban dweller does with his house number, Eircode is not a solution to the address problem.
I agree. But even this won't work well. The first house on the rural road will be displaying Z99 QWAS. 200 metres up the road the next house might be displaying Z99 B234. It is not like number 2 is across the street from number 3 etc... You still need a computer and access to the database to make sense of the thing. DHL has no intention of polluting their global database of 3 million odd postcodes with about 2 million Irish codes for a country with about 4 million people. GPS and similar companies are likely to take the same attitude.
Eircode is designed to be the most screwed up, dysfunctional, addressing code on the planet bar none. Hacked to death by a biased set-up which is based in another country, which country also has a stupid addressing and coding system, and messed with by corrupt Irish politicians - neither of whom could give a jot for the welfare or functionality of the country. Take 40 million EUR out of the public purse, and run.0 -
marmurr1916 wrote: »Nobody is compelling you to live in Ireland for any length of time. You're free to live 12 months of the year in the Swiss paradise of boredom.
I have a right to (visit Ireland), and a moral obligation as an Irish citizen to do my bit to ensure that the best is done for the country in all aspects of life.
And, by the way, Switzerland is probably the most creative countries on the planet. What other country can give you a Mediterranean climate (Lugano), the best of German culture, and a bit of France, (with the most approachable and friendly people on the planet) all available in a far smaller land mass than Ireland. Where you can have unlimited use of the entire public transport network for less than the cost of a small car. A country where things work as expected and with confidence. And if you get sick you don't have to wait on a trolley in some third world medical facility which the Oirish have the audacity to call a hospital. [A justified digression caused by a silly remark]0 -
marmurr1916 wrote: »I don't see anything chaotic about Ireland's address system.
This is the system for rural addresses:
Townland
Post Town
County
Eircode
Townland is useless because it is just a blob of land. It does not indicate which building you are looking for.
You don't need a county if you have a postcode. The proper address format even in GB is not to include a county name. No county names or province names in other European or Russian or any country I can think of.
There should be no difference between rural and urban address structure.
*'According to the Royal Mail, the former postal county data no longer forms part of postal addresses. It was removed from the Postcode Address File database in 2000 and does not form part of its code of practice for changing addresses.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_counties_of_the_United_Kingdom'0 -
But merely creating road names doesn't solve the non unique issue.
Eircode creates a unique reference , used appropriately it solves that issue completely
No. you have to realise the metric road number in rural areas, and that is the building number. eg 1000 Townland X West is 500 m from 1500 Townland X West.
The only functional way of describing the location of a building in writing is to specify the road/street and number of the building. Each town has a defined collection of road/street names. These can be based on townland names (with appendages of East West etc) as necessary. A postcode should be a numeric, hierarchical code which avoids duplicative confusion in cases where the same street/road name is repeated and which allows one to define blobs of land in a country in a logical manner ideally using a 4 or 5 digit number - although I have no problem with large countries like Japan which do not use Roman characters having a 7 digit numeric code, which is readable by all.
Alpha numeric codes are less efficient. Like the British telephone area code system was based on letters on a phone dial (eg back in the day Newcastle/Tyne was 0632 (0NE2)). When GB expanded the numbering base they had to basically dump the existing area code system and Newcastle became 091. In the rest of Europe, phone numbering was hierarchical, so as the number of subscribers grew, all one had to do was add an extra digit or two to the local number, or better still remove the initial 0 and get rid of area codes, and give every phone a fixed 8 or 9 digit number like Denmark, Norway, Spain, Portugal, Monaco, France, Luxembourg, etc did. London's area code went from 01 to 071 and 081, then 0171 and 0181, and then 020 as a result of this lack of foresight. Britain is the second last country on the planet that one would want to use for anything to do with coding structures. Ireland is the last. The dumbest. Period.
Most people use mobile phones. The area code is a rubbish anachronism. With numbering portability between networks it is of zero meaning.
Intelligently run countries such as Switzerland or Netherlands have 088 or 058 numbers for companies (corporate numbering). eg your Zurich office might be 058 333 2000 to 2999 and your Geneva office might be 058 333 3000 to 3999. This eliminates the geographic prejudice in telephone numbering. Same for 088 numbers in NL. The call costs no more for the caller or the called party. Unlike Ireland's ill thought out 1890 and 1895 numbers which don't allow for direct dialling to an extension, and can't be reached for outside of Ireland and the recipient and caller have to pay for the call. In Ireland on a mobile phone you pay extra for calls to 189x numbers, on top of your 6 hours per month of calls or whatever racket you signed up for. 058 / 088 are billed as normal geographic calls.0 -
I have a right to (visit Ireland), and a moral obligation as an Irish citizen to do my bit to ensure that the best is done for the country in all aspects of life.
And, by the way, Switzerland is probably the most creative countries on the planet. What other country can give you a Mediterranean climate (Lugano), the best of German culture, and a bit of France, (with the most approachable and friendly people on the planet) all available in a far smaller land mass than Ireland. Where you can have unlimited use of the entire public transport network for less than the cost of a small car. A country where things work as expected and with confidence. And if you get sick you don't have to wait on a trolley in some third world medical facility which the Oirish have the audacity to call a hospital. [A justified digression caused by a silly remark]
Isn't Switzerland wonderful.
In 2010 over 500,000 children lived in poverty in Switzerland, over 2000 families a month were going on welfare.
It has an aging population and it's national pension scheme is in serious trouble and the government has tried and failed in several strategies to resolve it, it's still ongoing.
They develop policies by popular initiatives which the government struggle to implement as many are violations of international treaties or laws and leaves them with many abandoned constitutional changes, like banning gambling houses, they messed up the parliamentary process and failed to implement the policy.
They also have a huge immigration problem and there's more and more "anti foreigner" sentiment building on the country.
You obviously have a very thick pair of rose tinted glasses to come here with the sheer arrogance or ignorance to try hoodwink us in to thinking Switzerland is perfect. They are a country like any other, they do some things well, they **** up other things. Just like everyone else.0 -
Isn't Switzerland wonderful.
In 2010 over 500,000 children lived in poverty in Switzerland, over 2000 families a month were going on welfare.
It has an aging population and it's national pension scheme is in serious trouble and the government has tried and failed in several strategies to resolve it, it's still ongoing.
They develop policies by popular initiatives which the government struggle to implement as many are violations of international treaties or laws and leaves them with many abandoned constitutional changes, like banning gambling houses, they messed up the parliamentary process and failed to implement the policy.
They also have a huge immigration problem and there's more and more "anti foreigner" sentiment building on the country.
You obviously have a very thick pair of rose tinted glasses to come here with the sheer arrogance or ignorance to try hoodwink us in to thinking Switzerland is perfect. They are a country like any other, they do some things well, they **** up other things. Just like everyone else.
Ireland isn't good on the pension side and it frequently loses generation to emigration. However that's irrelevant in a discussion specifically on post codes. The pension arrangements are irrelevant as a criticism of a postal code system.0 -
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Isn't Switzerland wonderful.
In 2010 over 500,000 children lived in poverty in Switzerland, over 2000 families a month were going on welfare.
It has an aging population and it's national pension scheme is in serious trouble and the government has tried and failed in several strategies to resolve it, it's still ongoing.
They develop policies by popular initiatives which the government struggle to implement as many are violations of international treaties or laws and leaves them with many abandoned constitutional changes, like banning gambling houses, they messed up the parliamentary process and failed to implement the policy.
They also have a huge immigration problem and there's more and more "anti foreigner" sentiment building on the country.
You obviously have a very thick pair of rose tinted glasses to come here with the sheer arrogance or ignorance to try hoodwink us in to thinking Switzerland is perfect. They are a country like any other, they do some things well, they **** up other things. Just like everyone else.
Can we have a link to a credible reference source for these data?0 -
Ireland's eircode/address structure does not comply with the Universal Postal Union S42 international addressing standard.
http://www.upu.int/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/sheetAddressingS42InternationalAddressingStandardsFactSheetEn.pdf0 -
Ireland isn't good on the pension side and it frequently loses generation to emigration. However that's irrelevant in a discussion specifically on post codes. The pension arrangements are irrelevant as a criticism of a postal code system.
Oh is that what this thread is for? Because it's titled "eircode anomalies" but it's been off topic for pages.
There's about 100 others posts you could quote and criticise about having nothing to do with the topic.
I would be in favour of closing this thread admits decended into the same old ****e we saw in the first thread of the same old rehashed irrelevant arguments back and forth0 -
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Switzerland is a tolerant country that has more immigrants than most. There are few if any poor Swiss people/children. If there are a few thousand or so poor children they probably have moved there, legally or otherwise from another less fortunate country.No. Google it yourself. You've backed up your nonsense with nothing credible. Why would I bother to provide you with anything
Ireland was 'rich' (in debt) for a few hours in the 2000s. And we had immigrants outside churches and everywhere else begging for money big time.
Switzerland is seriously rich due to the quality of the country's products and services, and has immigrants as a result. Are you suggesting that they should throw hard earned cash at people who come from thousands of km away, taking advantage of Switzerland's hard earned position and education system?
As for rich countries, in my view Sweden is far worse for poor immigrants and begging not to mention lazy Swedes. Parks in Stockholm used to be populated by alcoholics asking for 10 Kr for a drink please when I first visited the country. The situation is a lot more acute today. This is socialist Sweden. Again off topic. But Sweden's addressing system is close to perfect and they haven't given in to the British attempt for force the UPU to make people put the name of the country on the envelope address.
I have no problem with hard working immigrants, like the Poles, which we are fortunate to have in Ireland, who generally do a lot better, more professional job than the natives. But this is a discussion on postcodes.0 -
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Ireland's eircode/address structure does not comply with the Universal Postal Union S42 international addressing standard.
http://www.upu.int/uploads/tx_sbdownloader/sheetAddressingS42InternationalAddressingStandardsFactSheetEn.pdf
neither does france or the UK. S42 is essentially germanic in origin0 -
Switzerland is a tolerant country that has more immigrants than most. There are few if any poor Swiss people/children. If there are a few thousand or so poor children they probably have moved there, legally or otherwise from another less fortunate country.
Ireland was 'rich' (in debt) for a few hours in the 2000s. And we had immigrants outside churches and everywhere else begging for money big time.
Switzerland is seriously rich due to the quality of the country's products and services, and has immigrants as a result. Are you suggesting that they should throw hard earned cash at people who come from thousands of km away, taking advantage of Switzerland's hard earned position and education system?
As for rich countries, in my view Sweden is far worse for poor immigrants and begging not to mention lazy Swedes. Parks in Stockholm used to be populated by alcoholics asking for 10 Kr for a drink please when I first visited the country. The situation is a lot more acute today. This is socialist Sweden. Again off topic. But Sweden's addressing system is close to perfect and they haven't given in to the British attempt for force the UPU to make people put the name of the country on the envelope address.
I have no problem with hard working immigrants, like the Poles, which we are fortunate to have in Ireland, who generally do a lot better, more professional job than the natives. But this is a discussion on postcodes.
yes a tolerant country that removed itself from an agreement with the EU over free movement of people , very tolerant indeed0 -
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Mod: I think the time has come to close this thread. See post #247
It has descended into off topic squabbles and ad hominem attacks. It has had nothing to do with anomalies in the Eircode system for some time and warnings have been ignored. It is mostly about the poor basic implementation and many design failings with the usual supporters trying to stifle any debate,
Thread closed.
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This discussion has been closed.
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